Who Is The Villain?

[Ellen Brown]

Even as a pseudo Muslim, well actually Abrahamic Religionist actually, I tend to be on the side of Israel, um for the most part, um yeah.

I know the part in the Bible, where God gave Israel "as far as your eye can see". BUT I have also heard an old and wizened Jew who was against Zionism, and he said that God took the land from Israel due to disobedience. All this leaves me confused.

And, even when the Jews were established in the land again, the other side refused any sort of peaceful co-existence. So it goes. I think it goes beyond Jew and Muslim and into political expediency. In "self defense" Israel has struck Egypt, Jordan, and Syria preemptively.

Now it appears to be working up to striking Iran yet again, and has already done that against Iranian based in Syria.

GOSH ! I am not understanding any of this.

 

[74x12]

Even as a pseudo Muslim, well actually Abrahamic Religionist actually, I tend to be on the side of Israel, um for the most part, um yeah.

I know the part in the Bible, where God gave Israel "as far as your eye can see". BUT I have also heard an old and wizened Jew who was against Zionism, and he said that God took the land from Israel due to disobedience. All this leaves me confused.

And, even when the Jews were established in the land again, the other side refused any sort of peaceful co-existence. So it goes. I think it goes beyond Jew and Muslim and into political expediency. In "self defense" Israel has struck Egypt, Jordan, and Syria preemptively.

Now it appears to be working up to striking Iran yet again, and has already done that against Iranian based in Syria.

GOSH ! I am not understanding any of this.

Ever heard of a court of law that judged people by their race or religion? Like anyone gets special treatment? Anyone who does villainy is the villain. It's judged on a case to case bases.

Besides who says there are good guys at all? I'm for the Israeli people but not supportive of the Israeli government's actions. I'm for the Palestinians but not terrorists!

 

[whirlingmerc]

Even as a pseudo Muslim, well actually Abrahamic Religionist actually, I tend to be on the side of Israel, um for the most part, um yeah.

I know the part in the Bible, where God gave Israel "as far as your eye can see". BUT I have also heard an old and wizened Jew who was against Zionism, and he said that God took the land from Israel due to disobedience. All this leaves me confused.

And, even when the Jews were established in the land again, the other side refused any sort of peaceful co-existence. So it goes. I think it goes beyond Jew and Muslim and into political expediency. In "self defense" Israel has struck Egypt, Jordan, and Syria preemptively.

Now it appears to be working up to striking Iran yet again, and has already done that against Iranian based in Syria.

GOSH ! I am not understanding any of this.

I do support Israel's right to existence and self preservation. but... people are people ... and no one perfectly achieves justice and mercy and we often fall short of those ideals

Interesting though that Zion is from the word 'parched or dry' as opposed to Eden which is related to 'delightful'
A reminder that the promised land is here and not yet?

 

[icehorse]

GOSH ! I am not understanding any of this.

I find this to be a really complex situation, which makes me suspicious of anyone who thinks it's clear. That said, I think the people on both sides mostly want peace and it's the leadership that keeps peace from happening.

 

[Father Heathen]

Both sides have their hands stained with innocent blood, and it's a bid odd to me how outsiders root for a side as if it were a soccer match.

 

[Tumah]

Interesting though that Zion is from the word 'parched or dry' as opposed to Eden which is related to 'delightful'
A reminder that the promised land is here and not yet?

The etymology of the word Zion (ṣiyôn) is uncertain.[2][3][5] Mentioned in the Old Testament in the Books of Samuel (2 Samuel 5:7) as the name of the Jebusite fortress conquered by David, its origin likely predates the Israelites.[2][3] If Semitic, it may be derived from the Hebrew root ṣiyyôn ("castle") or the Hebrew צִיָּה ṣiyya ("dry land", Jeremiah 51:43). A non-Semitic relationship to the Hurrian word šeya ("river" or "brook") has also been suggested.[5]
Zion - Wikipedia

מקור השם אולי יבוסי או כנעני, ואולי קרוב לציוּן (1) לעיל, כי נראית למרחוק
The source of the name is perhaps Jebusite or Canaanite, or perhaps similar to ziun as above (meaning a notation or landmark), because it is seen from far.
ציון - ויקימילון​

How do you speak so authoritatively?

 

[Ellen Brown]

Both sides have their hands stained with innocent blood, and it's a bid odd to me how outsiders root for a side as if it were a soccer match.

Quite.

 

[LuisDantas]

My take on it is that ultimately the objections to Israel's existence are not nearly well explained enough.

I find the 1948 war particularly difficult to justify from the Arab perspective. They just felt like declaring war against Israel? I truly feel that something important is missing, and I almost feel guilty of trying to guess what it might be.

The objection from ultraorthodox Judaism is a bit easier to understand, if not IMO all that significant. There seems to be a scriptural prophecy that they interpret as making the very existence of a Jewish State something to avoid.

As for "right to exist", that is not a valid claim even in the abstract, IMO. No nation ever had a right to exist, nor could that ever happen. Political rights are ephemeral, delicate consequences of the willingness of people in proper positions to make those rights real. It makes no sense for anyone to ever voice the right of any nation to exist.

All that said, I can only feel that Israel as it currently exists is difficult to justify. Any community that consistently needs to employ significant amounts of military force just to survive ought to be considered a failure, even if ultimately the blame is squarely on its neighbors' and enemies' shoulders. The blood in one's hands piles up and can't really be removed. Another significant fact is that, artificial as it is, the Palestinians' plight is very real and can't really be solved with a lot of good will, including from Israel's side.

 

[Flankerl]

I think the people on both sides mostly want peace

Sure but under what conditions?
Luckily the An-Najah National University in Nablus got us covered.

Results of Palestinian Public Opinion Poll
No. 57
25-27 October 2018


Do you support or reject the establishment of one state that includes both Palestinians and Israelis in historical Palestine? (One State Solution)

I support: 25.4
I reject: 70.1
No opinion: 4.5


Do you support or reject the creation of a Palestinian state on the 1967 borders as a final solution for the Palestinian cause?

I support: 39.1
I reject: 55.3
No opinion: 5.6


Do you support or reject the creation of a Palestinian state on the 1967 borders with some land exchange as a final solution for the Palestinian cause?

I support: 22.5
I reject: 71.4
No opinion: 6.2


Do you support or reject the creation of a binational state for both Arabs and Jews as a final solution for the Palestinian cause?

I support: 21
I reject: 74.5
No opinion: 4.5


They don't want a 1 State Solution.
They don't want a 2 State Solution without territorial swaps.
They don't want a 2 State Solution with territorial swaps.
And they don't want a state according to the 1949 armistice line.


So what other options are there?

Sadly the University didn't ask whether they want all of Israel or whether the Jews should just pack up and leave.

 

[Ellen Brown]

My take on it is that ultimately the objections to Israel's existence are not nearly well explained enough.

I find the 1948 war particularly difficult to justify from the Arab perspective. They just felt like declaring war against Israel? I truly feel that something important is missing, and I almost feel guilty of trying to guess what it might be.

The objection from ultraorthodox Judaism is a bit easier to understand, if not IMO all that significant. There seems to be a scriptural prophecy that they interpret as making the very existence of a Jewish State something to avoid.

As for "right to exist", that is not a valid claim even in the abstract, IMO. No nation ever had a right to exist, nor could that ever happen. Political rights are ephemeral, delicate consequences of the willingness of people in proper positions to make those rights real. It makes no sense for anyone to ever voice the right of any nation to exist.

All that said, I can only feel that Israel as it currently exists is difficult to justify. Any community that consistently needs to employ significant amounts of military force just to survive ought to be considered a failure, even if ultimately the blame is squarely on its neighbors' and enemies' shoulders. The blood in one's hands piles up and can't really be removed. Another significant fact is that, artificial as it is, the Palestinians' plight is very real and can't really be solved with a lot of good will, including from Israel's side.

I spent most of my life in the Evangelical Christian pressure cooker, so what you just said is difficult for me to figure out. I am so torn by all this. I do not wish to face it.

 

[Shantanu]

Even as a pseudo Muslim, well actually Abrahamic Religionist actually, I tend to be on the side of Israel, um for the most part, um yeah.

I know the part in the Bible, where God gave Israel "as far as your eye can see". BUT I have also heard an old and wizened Jew who was against Zionism, and he said that God took the land from Israel due to disobedience. All this leaves me confused.

And, even when the Jews were established in the land again, the other side refused any sort of peaceful co-existence. So it goes. I think it goes beyond Jew and Muslim and into political expediency. In "self defense" Israel has struck Egypt, Jordan, and Syria preemptively.

Now it appears to be working up to striking Iran yet again, and has already done that against Iranian based in Syria.

GOSH ! I am not understanding any of this.

Once the belly gets full, man wants to use his surplus wealth to exert power: this is done by creating enemies. The easiest way to create enemies is through religious differences in out look and practice. The rest is history.

 

[sooda]

Even as a pseudo Muslim, well actually Abrahamic Religionist actually, I tend to be on the side of Israel, um for the most part, um yeah.

I know the part in the Bible, where God gave Israel "as far as your eye can see". BUT I have also heard an old and wizened Jew who was against Zionism, and he said that God took the land from Israel due to disobedience. All this leaves me confused.

And, even when the Jews were established in the land again, the other side refused any sort of peaceful co-existence. So it goes. I think it goes beyond Jew and Muslim and into political expediency. In "self defense" Israel has struck Egypt, Jordan, and Syria preemptively.

Now it appears to be working up to striking Iran yet again, and has already done that against Iranian based in Syria.

GOSH ! I am not understanding any of this.

It's from the Jordan to wadi al arish.

 

[icehorse]

They don't want a 1 State Solution.
They don't want a 2 State Solution without territorial swaps.
They don't want a 2 State Solution with territorial swaps.
And they don't want a state according to the 1949 armistice line.

So what other options are there?

Sadly the University didn't ask whether they want all of Israel or whether the Jews should just pack up and leave.

Well that's very depressing. Any ideas why that's the case? I have to say it feels like indoctrination to me.

 

[sooda]

Well that's very depressing. Any ideas why that's the case? I have to say it feels like indoctrination to me.

There won't be a two state solution.. That possibility expired over a decade ago.. There's no room for a Palestinian state.. In fact the die was cast on that with the Oslo Agreement.

 

[GoodbyeDave]

Colonial regimes cannot last. Israel may hang on for years, using weaponry paid for by the USA, but (as in the old South Africa) the social costs at home and the outrage abroad will take their toll.

 

[icehorse]

Colonial regimes cannot last. Israel may hang on for years, using weaponry paid for by the USA, but (as in the old South Africa) the social costs at home and the outrage abroad will take their toll.

There are many non-Muslim tribes in the ME, They are all being ousted. I'm not sure categorizing Israel as a "colonial regime" is accurate from the perspective of historic tribes in the region.