Explain to me why god is real using facts

[Trailblazer]

You do realize that you just made two claims that you need to provide evidence for. You need to show that humans changed the original message. And you need to show that the original message was from God.

He asked me to explain and I explained. I did not make any *claims* so I do not have to prove anything.

There is no way that it can be *proven* that the original message came from God, but it could be proven that humans changed the original message.

 

[Trailblazer]

No, we merely want theists to support their claims. We can support ours. Why do theists run away when they need to provide the burden of proof?

I cannot speak for any other believers, only for myself....
I do not claim that I can prove that God exists so I have no burden of proof....
Nobody can prove that God exists so it is illogical to place that burden upon anyone.

 

[CG Didymus]

What does it mean to "exist objectively." Do you mean that it actually exists, or do you mean that it can be proven to exist objectively?

Logically speaking, it is entirely possible that God exists but cannot be proven to exist objectively. In fact it is reasonable to assume that if an immaterial God exists, that God could never be proven objectively. It is also reasonable to assume that even if God could prove to us that He exists in some fashion, God might not want to prove He exists, in which case God would not prove He exists, since an Omnipotent God only does what it wants to do.

So where does that leave us? It leaves us with certain choices. We can choose to *disbelieve* in God because there is no objective evidence that God exists, or we can accept that, logically speaking, is unreasonable to expect to obtain objective proof and continue along on our search for other kinds of evidence that might indicate that God exists.

Well, logically speaking, some people's gods don't make sense. They don't seem real, yet, to those that believe, they are real. Like a volcano god. Or, even the gods of the Greeks. Today, we easily say that those gods weren't real. They were mythical.

Why, then, is the "real" God different when things that are said about him in the Bible seem very mythical? I already know one Baha'i answer and that is because those stories were "symbolic". But what if the things told of the Greek gods were only symbolic too? So, you know me, if God didn't really do something, and it was only symbolic, then why then can't God be symbolic also... and not real?

 

[Trailblazer]

Many, many mutually contradictory gods exist as ideas in people's minds. Either one or more of them exist independently of human minds or not. That must be either true or false.

Either a believer thinks that her god(s) are just ideas or have an existence independently of anybody's beliefs or she doesn't.

I like how you think, logically.

Unless God can be *proven* to exist, there is a question as to whether God exists. I do not want to discuss this with believers because many of them think a lot differently than I do. I think more like a nonbeliever even though I am a believer. Perhaps that is because I talk mostly to nonbelievers, not believers.

You are correct: Either a God exists independently of human minds or not. That must be either true or false.
A God that is just an idea in someone's head does not have independent existence.

However, I agree with what PureX said, that existence is not limited to or defined by physical matter.
If one cannot wrap their mind around that concept then they will never be able to believe in God.

 

[Trailblazer]

Not if they're in the same place a measuring the weather using intersubjective means (wind speed, rainfall, air pressure, and so on).

You're just ignoring the point that either all these ideas of gods are just ideas in human minds or one or more of them has some existence independent of human minds.

It can't be both. If every human died, would there be any god(s)?

That is the only salient question. God either exists or not; it is an x, y proposition.
Even if not one person on earth believed in God, God would still exist if God exists.

Moreover, what people believe *about God* does not determine what God is.
God IS whatever God IS, just like the temperature outside is whatever it is.

 

[Trailblazer]

Well, logically speaking, some people's gods don't make sense. They don't seem real, yet, to those that believe, they are real. Like a volcano god. Or, even the gods of the Greeks. Today, we easily say that those gods weren't real. They were mythical.

Why, then, is the "real" God different when things that are said about him in the Bible seem very mythical? I already know one Baha'i answer and that is because those stories were "symbolic". But what if the things told of the Greek gods were only symbolic too? So, you know me, if God didn't really do something, and it was only symbolic, then why then can't God be symbolic also... and not real?

Look who jointed the party. Take a seat.

I have no idea what God did back in the Bible days, it is anyone's best guess if God did anything the Bible says He did. As one Baha'i once said a long time ago, the Bible is an *unmapped swamp,* meaning that you will surely get lost long before you find anything you are looking for.

But let's just say that the stories in the OT were symbolic of something God chose to convey to the writers, and that God did not do anything it says He did in those stories. How would that make God symbolic?

 

[Trailblazer]

You'd better take that up with them. Are you seriously suggesting that no theist cares about (for example) an afterlife?

Raises hand! ~~~ I do.
There is no objective proof of an afterlife but there is evidence.
Whether or not people consider it evidence is another matter.

 

[Trailblazer]

But I personally don't mind if their is a God, but I can't stand some of his rules. I don't like that he created things that cause sicknesses and diseases. I don't like that he created a planet that has things happening on it that kill people, like earthquakes and hurricanes and tsunamis. I don't like that he created creatures that can kill and eat people. I don't like that he created people with the need to kill and eat other creatures. But, other than that, and a few other grievances, I don't mind that there might be a god. But, I really wonder, what was god thinking?

I do not mind His rules, but I do not like some of the things He created. What was He thinking?
If I did not have a good reason to believe in God, I would throw Him clean out of the window.

 

[Trailblazer]

So why would a god allow that to happen?

Because we all have free will and God normally does not interfere with our free will.

Surely any god worthy of the name would be able to make sure that every single individual received its message in a clear and unambiguous way.

God could do that if He wanted to, but God does not want to.
An Omnipotnet God can do anything He wants to do.
We know that God does not want to because He doesn't.

The question is: Why doesn't He? One reason is God does not need to be clear and unambiguous to every single individual. Another reason is that God wants us to do our own homework and make sure we have received His message in a clear and unambiguous way. Only those who do the homework get the grade.

 

[The Anointed]

I like how you think, logically.

Unless God can be *proven* to exist, there is a question as to whether God exists. I do not want to discuss this with believers because many of them think a lot differently than I do. I think more like a nonbeliever even though I am a believer. Perhaps that is because I talk mostly to nonbelievers, not believers.

You are correct: Either a God exists independently of human minds or not. That must be either true or false.
A God that is just an idea in someone's head does not have independent existence.

However, I agree with what PureX said, that existence is not limited to or defined by physical matter.
If one cannot wrap their mind around that concept then they will never be able to believe in God.

Trailblazer wrote...…. Unless God can be *proven* to exist, there is a question as to whether God exists.

The Anointed...….. Well we can prove that energy exists. We can prove that energy cannot be created and can never be destroyed. We can prove that this universe and everything herein, was created from that energy which has neither beginning or end, and that the eternal energy is all that exists. And we can prove that within the universal body which the eternal energy has become and still is, a supreme being has developed, who is 'THE MOST HIGH' in the creation and who has dominion over all lesser life forms that the eternal has become.

Nothing Is Solid & Everything Is Energy – Scientists Explain The World of Quantum Physics*

According to our Quantum physicists, we are all energy in a body of energy, we are all part of the Combined Cosmic Consciousness that the eternal energy, which has neither beginning or end, has become.

Pioneering physicist Sir James Jeans wrote: “The stream of knowledge is heading toward a non-mechanical reality; the universe begins to look more like a great thought than like a great machine. Mind no longer appears to be an accidental intruder into the realm of matter, we ought rather hail it as the creator and governor of the realm of matter. (R. C. Henry, “The Mental Universe”; Nature 436:29, 2005)

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer wrote...…. Unless God can be *proven* to exist, there is a question as to whether God exists.

The Anointed...….. Well we can prove that energy exists. We can prove that energy cannot be created and can never be destroyed. We can prove that this universe and everything herein, was created from that energy which has neither beginning or end, and that the eternal energy is all that exists. And we can prove that within the universal body which the eternal energy has become and still is, a supreme being has developed, who is 'THE MOST HIGH' in the creation and who has dominion over all lesser life forms that the eternal has become.

Nothing Is Solid & Everything Is Energy – Scientists Explain The World of Quantum Physics*

According to our Quantum physicists, we are all energy in a body of energy, we are all part of the Combined Cosmic Consciousness that the eternal energy, which has neither beginning or end, has become.

Pioneering physicist Sir James Jeans wrote: “The stream of knowledge is heading toward a non-mechanical reality; the universe begins to look more like a great thought than like a great machine. Mind no longer appears to be an accidental intruder into the realm of matter, we ought rather hail it as the creator and governor of the realm of matter. (R. C. Henry, “The Mental Universe”; Nature 436:29, 2005)

Thanks, you raise some good points about Creation.... Along those lines, I just happened to get this article in my e-mail yesterday:
Did Our Universe Have a Beginning? Debunking the Big Bang Theory

 

[Subduction Zone]

He asked me to explain and I explained. I did not make any *claims* so I do not have to prove anything.

There is no way that it can be *proven* that the original message came from God, but it could be proven that humans changed the original message.

That is incorrect. You explanation had two claims in it. This is what you said:

"Because humans changed and in many cases corrupted the original messages that came from God."

And you actually made three claims, all of which put a burden of proof upon you.

First you claimed that humans changed the original messages. You need to show that that is true. Second you said that they often corrupted those messages. Third you claimed that those messages came from God. Those three claims puts a huge burden of proof upon you. If you cannot support them then your explanation was not an explanation at all but merely a string of empty claims.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I cannot speak for any other believers, only for myself....
I do not claim that I can prove that God exists so I have no burden of proof....
Nobody can prove that God exists so it is illogical to place that burden upon anyone.

If you try to debate with someone you have a burden of proof. Otherwise there really is no difference between your claims and a series of lies, with the exception that you are not trying to deceive.

And if no one can probe that God exists, then why believe in a God?

 

[The Anointed]

Thanks, you raise some good points about Creation.... Along those lines, I just happened to get this article in my e-mail yesterday:
Did Our Universe Have a Beginning? Debunking the Big Bang Theory

I for one, have never really accepted the Big Bang theory, I do accept that some 13.8 billion years ago, a White Hole which was connected to a Black Hole billions of light years away, into which another universal body had been torn to pieces molecule by molecule, Atom by atom, subatomic particle by subatomic particle and accelerated along the worm hole or Einstein-Rosen bridge to speeds far, far in access of the speed of light, blasted out the liquid like plasma that was once the old universe, in the trillions of trillions of degrees from which that universe was resurrected in it's new position in space-time to which the light from its old position would take billions of years to reach us.

I believe as the ancients believed that after each universal expansion come the universal crunch, where all is returned to its beginning.

“Universe after universe is like an interminable succession of wheels forever coming into view, forever rolling onwards, disappearing and reappearing; forever passing from being to non-being, and again from non-being to being. In short, the constant revolving of the wheel of life in one eternal cycle, according to fixed and immutable laws, is perhaps after all, the sum and substance of the philosophy of Buddhism. And this eternal wheel has so to speak, six spokes representing six forms of existence.” ---- Mon. Williams, Buddhism, pp. 229, 122.

The days and nights of Brahma are called Manvantara, or the cycle of manifestation, ‘The Great Day,’ which is a period of universal activity, that is preceded, and also followed by ‘Pralaya,’ a dark period, which to our finite minds would seem as an eternity, or but a moment in time.

‘Manvantara,’ is a creative day as seen in the six days of creation in Genesis, ‘Pralaya,’ is the evening that proceeds the next creative day. The six periods of Creation and the seventh day of rest in which we now exist are referred to in the book of Genesis as the “GENERATIONS OF THE UNIVERSE.”

The English word “Generation,” is translated from the Hebrew “toledoth” which is used in the Old Testament in every instance as ‘births,’ or ‘descendants,’ such as “These are the generations of Adam,” or “these are the generations of Abraham, and Genesis 2: 4; These are the generations of the Universe or the heavens and earth, etc. And the ‘Great Day’ in which the seven generations of the universe are eternally repeated, is the eternal cosmic period, or the eighth eternal day in which those who attain to perfection are allowed to enter, where they shall be surrounded by great light and they shall experience eternal peace, while those who do not attain to perfection are cast back into the refining fires of the seven physical cycles of endless rebirths that perpetually revolve within the eighth eternal cosmic cycle.

Enoch the righteous, wrote that God created an eighth day also, so that it should be the first after his works, and it is a day eternal with neither hours, days, weeks, months or years, for all time is stuck together in one eon, etc, etc, and all who enter into the generation of the Light beings, are able to visit all those worlds that still exist in Space-Time, but not in our time.

A series of worlds following one upon the other-- each world rising a step higher than the previous world, so that every later world brings to ripeness the seeds that were imbedded in the former, and itself then prepares the seed for the universe that will follow it. This is the true resurrection in which all from the previous cycle of universal activity, who still have the judgmental war raging within them, are born again into the endless cycles of physical manifestation, or rebirths.

The Big Bang
The big bang is the instant when the primordial singularity became the universe. Based on observations of distant objects and measurements of the cosmic background radiation, scientists have deduced the temperature at the Planck time, which is 10 million trillion trillion trillionths of a second. At that instant, the temperature was 100 million trillion trillion kelvins (180 million trillion trillion degrees Fahrenheit). The universe underwent a period of accelerated expansion that ended well before a second had elapsed. By this time, it had cooled to a temperature of 100 billion kelvins (180 billion degrees Fahrenheit).

 

[Trailblazer]

That is incorrect. You explanation had two claims in it. This is what you said:

"Because humans changed and in many cases corrupted the original messages that came from God."

And you actually made three claims, all of which put a burden of proof upon you.

First you claimed that humans changed the original messages. You need to show that that is true. Second you said that they often corrupted those messages. Third you claimed that those messages came from God. Those three claims puts a huge burden of proof upon you. If you cannot support them then your explanation was not an explanation at all but merely a string of empty claims.

Those were my beliefs, not claims.
I could prove the first two but not the last, but since they were not claims I have no burden.

 

[Trailblazer]

If you try to debate with someone you have a burden of proof.

Who said I am debating with anyone? I was just exchanging ideas.

And if no one can prove that God exists, then why believe in a God?

Some of us do not need proof, because it is so obvious.

 

[Trailblazer]

I for one, have never really accepted the Big Bang theory, I do accept that some 13.8 billion years ago, a White Hole which was connected to a Black Hole billions of light years away, into which another universal body had been torn to pieces molecule by molecule, Atom by atom, subatomic particle by subatomic particle and accelerated along the worm hole or Einstein-Rosen bridge to speeds far, far in access of the speed of light, blasted out the liquid like plasma that was once the old universe, in the trillions of trillions of degrees from which that universe was resurrected in it's new position in space-time to which the light from its old position would take billions of years to reach us.

I believe as the ancients believed that after each universal expansion come the universal crunch, where all is returned to its beginning.

“Universe after universe is like an interminable succession of wheels forever coming into view, forever rolling onwards, disappearing and reappearing; forever passing from being to non-being, and again from non-being to being. In short, the constant revolving of the wheel of life in one eternal cycle, according to fixed and immutable laws, is perhaps after all, the sum and substance of the philosophy of Buddhism. And this eternal wheel has so to speak, six spokes representing six forms of existence.” ---- Mon. Williams, Buddhism, pp. 229, 122.

The days and nights of Brahma are called Manvantara, or the cycle of manifestation, ‘The Great Day,’ which is a period of universal activity, that is preceded, and also followed by ‘Pralaya,’ a dark period, which to our finite minds would seem as an eternity, or but a moment in time.

‘Manvantara,’ is a creative day as seen in the six days of creation in Genesis, ‘Pralaya,’ is the evening that proceeds the next creative day. The six periods of Creation and the seventh day of rest in which we now exist are referred to in the book of Genesis as the “GENERATIONS OF THE UNIVERSE.”

The English word “Generation,” is translated from the Hebrew “toledoth” which is used in the Old Testament in every instance as ‘births,’ or ‘descendants,’ such as “These are the generations of Adam,” or “these are the generations of Abraham, and Genesis 2: 4; These are the generations of the Universe or the heavens and earth, etc. And the ‘Great Day’ in which the seven generations of the universe are eternally repeated, is the eternal cosmic period, or the eighth eternal day in which those who attain to perfection are allowed to enter, where they shall be surrounded by great light and they shall experience eternal peace, while those who do not attain to perfection are cast back into the refining fires of the seven physical cycles of endless rebirths that perpetually revolve within the eighth eternal cosmic cycle.

Enoch the righteous, wrote that God created an eighth day also, so that it should be the first after his works, and it is a day eternal with neither hours, days, weeks, months or years, for all time is stuck together in one eon, etc, etc, and all who enter into the generation of the Light beings, are able to visit all those worlds that still exist in Space-Time, but not in our time.

A series of worlds following one upon the other-- each world rising a step higher than the previous world, so that every later world brings to ripeness the seeds that were imbedded in the former, and itself then prepares the seed for the universe that will follow it. This is the true resurrection in which all from the previous cycle of universal activity, who still have the judgmental war raging within them, are born again into the endless cycles of physical manifestation, or rebirths.

The Big Bang
The big bang is the instant when the primordial singularity became the universe. Based on observations of distant objects and measurements of the cosmic background radiation, scientists have deduced the temperature at the Planck time, which is 10 million trillion trillion trillionths of a second. At that instant, the temperature was 100 million trillion trillion kelvins (180 million trillion trillion degrees Fahrenheit). The universe underwent a period of accelerated expansion that ended well before a second had elapsed. By this time, it had cooled to a temperature of 100 billion kelvins (180 billion degrees Fahrenheit).

I am not much of a science buff, nor do I know the Bible well at all, but sounds reasonable to me.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Those were my beliefs, not claims.
I could prove the first two but not the last, but since they were not claims I have no burden.

Then you cannot use them in an explanation. Mere beliefs explain nothing.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Who said I am debating with anyone? I was just exchanging ideas.

Some of us do not need proof, because it is so obvious.

First off the existence of God is not obvious. There would be no debate if that was the case. Some people seem to be afraid of reality so they have to invent an invisible friend.

And if you are not debating what are you doing here? You try to defend your beliefs and when you can't you run away. Are you sure that you really do believe?

 

[Trailblazer]

Then you cannot use them in an explanation. Mere beliefs explain nothing.

They might to the other poster. That is his call.