Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I cannot say “I believe” that God ever said any of that. This is one of the problems with the Bible, a bunch of unverifiable stories.
I can certainly agree with that!
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Explain to me why god is real using facts
- Thread starter Felix Harris
- Start date
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
It does not matter what Baha’is think, it only matters what Baha’u’llah wrote. But what He meant by testimony was not that it was all authentic or that all the stories literally happened. He meant it testified to God’s existence.
What is the worst is that it ever hit the pages of the Book. It is a story, that is all it is. It is not verifiable history.
Some of the Bible might be real history, some fiction. But who cares, it is history now since the biblical dispensation has been abrogated.
Nobody knows anything that God has done other than sending Messengers from age to age. The rest is just stories. We do not know what God is like, that is a complete mystery.
“Wert thou to ponder in thine heart, from now until the end that hath no end, and with all the concentrated intelligence and understanding which the greatest minds have attained in the past or will attain in the future, this divinely ordained and subtle Reality, this sign of the revelation of the All-Abiding, All-Glorious God, thou wilt fail to comprehend its mystery or to appraise its virtue. Having recognized thy powerlessness to attain to an adequate understanding of that Reality which abideth within thee, thou wilt readily admit the futility of such efforts as may be attempted by thee, or by any of the created things, to fathom the mystery of the Living God, the Day Star of unfading glory, the Ancient of everlasting days. This confession of helplessness which mature contemplation must eventually impel every mind to make is in itself the acme of human understanding, and marketh the culmination of man’s development.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 165-166
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Funny, funny.... No, we Baha’is do not believe the NT stories...
But you raised an interesting point. IF science did not know that these things were impossible 2000 years ago, then that could explain why the Bible was written that way. You see, every religion is suited to the times and the times were different back then.
But we are living in different times now but those who still believe those things in the Bible happened are stuck in a time warp. Science and the level of human intelligence have advanced but they refuse to advance with it because they are attached to their beliefs. These superstitious beliefs have given religion a black eye and they are one reason atheists exist.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I do not know if everyone will know God in the spiritual world. Those who did not know God in this world might not know God in the next world. They might just be lost, roaming around aimlessly wondering why they are not dead after all.
The soul does not get put close to or far from God depending upon how Holy it was. It puts itself wherever it chooses to by virtue of its own efforts. Those who make the efforts are guided.
“Whoso maketh efforts for Us,” he shall enjoy the blessings conferred by the words: “In Our Ways shall We assuredly guide him.””
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 266-267
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 266-267
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I like your imagination, but was there a question there, or just a point? And if there was a point, what was it? Did God do something wrong and if so what was it?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
A far as I can tell, it is a testimony to God's existence and how God has affected humanity, but it is not a testimony of things God has done.
The Heart of the Gospel is a book that was written by a Christian clergyman who resigned his orders after 40 years to become a Baha’i. It explains how the Bible fits into history.
I. The Bible as Universal History
II. History as Spiritual Evolution
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
"Organized" religion was very much dead in the U.S. John Lennon I think said that the Beatles were more popular than Jesus. In the late 60's and early 70's I followed along with the hippies. I didn't believe that war solved anything. It sure seemed like young men were being used to kill and be killed to try and settle disputes that could have been solved other ways.
Eastern religions were looked into by many of us. In '69 I rented a place from a Baha'i family. Everything they said sounded like the truth. That is... until a friend of their son, who had become a friend of mine, became a Christian. That's when I first learned what the Bible and the NT really said and it contradicted what the Baha'is told me the Bible said. Then the Christians told me that the Baha'i Faith was a false religion, and showed me the prophecies of how Jesus was to really return.
I studied the Bible with them for three years but left because there was too much hypocrisy going on. Lots of arguing about doctrines between different church groups, mainly the "Charismatic/Pentecostal" ones vs. the Fundamental ones. The liberal Christians, forget about it, both those groups thought they weren't even true Christians... along with the Mormons and JW's.
I hung out with Baha'i one more time in the late 80's. Things had changed quite a bit. There were lots of Persian Baha'is in the U.S., and they were much more conservative than the hippie/love and peace Baha'is from the 70's. During both those times I went with Baha'i friends to mass teaching projects. Baha'is talked about how they expected "entry by troops". It didn't happen. Several would sign a declaration card and then fade away. Maybe they are still listed as "Baha'is". Who knows. But, I do remember that the Baha'is would say that in other parts of the world, in the rural areas and in the jungles, whole tribes were becoming Baha'is. What happened to them. What are they doing now?
In the area I live now is close to San Francisco and Sacramento. I don't hear anything about the Baha'i Faith. If it wasn't for you and the other Baha'is here, I wouldn't have any contact with any Baha'is. What are they doing? Even you say you don't do a lot in your area. Why, after fifty years, is the Baha'i Faith still so obscure? Where are they? What are they doing? Is it still local "firesides" where a few non-Baha'is show up to hear a basic talk about the Baha'i Faith?
Anyway, the failure of the people in the major religions is not a very good "proof" that there is a God. It makes God and religion look like a bunch of make believe. And, with Christianity, it don't help that Baha'is say that most of their beliefs are made up and wrong. But, Christians say the same thing about Baha'is... and about some of their opposing Christians groups. So each religion is kind of denying the "God" of the other religions. It's hard to prove that God exists when religions go after each other that way.
But, as always, it is good to hear your comments. And, although I don't agree with some of the things Baha'is believe, I do appreciate all of you and your posts and threads.
Oh but there are tons of other reasons. My city has a million people plus. Even at one person in 5 hearing about it, that would mean 200 000 have heard of it. The Bahai center with its sign is on a main road, and most people who drive would have gone by there. Still there are only 200 or less active members. The 'entry by troops' promised has been extended, and just isn't happening. There has to be a ton of reasons. Here are a few more:
1) contradicts itself
2) earlier heavy controversy about who is in charge
3) Not much to do other than the feast
4) Acceptance or pledge to a single prophet, infallibility
5) Simplistic 'unity teachings'
6) Power tripping, conflict at the local level
7) Local funds directed to NSAs) excessive encouragement to pioneer and proselytize
So there are many many reasons not to join. That said, it does have its place for a few souls, obviously. But with aging demographic, and very few newcomers signing up, I can't see it lasting very long. Another 100 years maybe. The core group is leaving Iran as quickly as they can, and things are very different in modern society socially. So the kids, given a secular education, won't be keen to continue.
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CG Didymus
Veteran Member
From your post... "The real God is not going to intervene and help people grow spiritually. God gave us that job to do ourselves.I like your imagination, but was there a question there, or just a point? And if there was a point, what was it? Did God do something wrong and if so what was it?
You cannot judge God by how people live. That is so illogical. Humans have free will so they are responsible for their own actions."
If we created some beings that ram amok, we'd be responsible. So why not God? Going by what the different religions say, God is vague in who he is and what he wants. I think it would be better for Baha'is just to say that all the other religions are wrong and that now we have a true message. And, in a way, that is what Baha'is are saying. But then they mess it up by trying to make all major religions "one" somehow. And, the only way that works is if all of them are wrong. So the Baha'is blame the leaders of the religion for messing up and changing the original message and by misinterpreting it... usually by taking the message as being literal. Then, in threads like this, Baha'is try to prove that God is real? It's kind of tough when Baha'is don't believe in a lot of the ways other religions define God.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
That's a huge issue. All the religions that have people meet once a week or so, then preach to them or have some kind of ritual, I don't think does much for people. I know when my parents took me to a Catholic Church, it didn't relate to me and the world I lived in. But with all the distractions kids have things days, I don't see them be too enthusiastic about following the religion of their parents. And like you said, the Baha'is only meet every 19 days. What do they do? Does it even inspire the adults?
Christians, even in small communities, can have hundreds of people. They can have a charismatic preacher. They can have great music and great children's programs... and still not inspire a lot of the members enough to do more than just show up once a week. And the kids are forced to go, so it's probably less inspiring for them. In tribal societies the religion was part of their everyday lives. Religion today takes a back seat for a lot of people. It doesn't relate that well to everyday life. The only ones that do the things preached about, and take their religion seriously, are the annoying ones that go out and proselytize. Oh, by the way, did you know that not only Jesus, but God loves you too? Have a blessed day.
lukethethird
unknown member
Sounds like quite the yawner. The concept of Gods and their favoured homophobic messenger dude is getting old, don't ya think?
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We have the same problem with second generation Tamil Hindu kids here. A few stick around, but after 3 generations, it's total integration. There was a large pioneer immigrant area settled by the Ukraines here 80 - 100 years ago. One county had 50+ churches. 4 are still operating. Toronto just might be different as there are 300 000 people ... enough to support language classes. But it takes a huge and dedicated effort. But the ones who do stick around seem more dedicated than ever.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Maybe for you it is old.
He was not homophobic.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Simply put because God created us with free will and so we are responsible for how we use it. If a car manufacturer makes a car are they responsible if you getting in a wreck in the car they made? maybe if there was a manufacturing flaw, but not because you were driving drunk.
We not have a true message but we have the new message, the message that is pertinent to this new age. All the religious messages were true for their own days, the dispensations to which they applied. But they are wrong for this new day because they are not the prescription the doctor ordered for this new day. Rather, they are like an old prescription that has not only expired but that would not be needed even if it was refilled.
“The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213
“No man, however acute his perception, can ever hope to reach the heights which the wisdom and understanding of the Divine Physician have attained. Little wonder, then, if the treatment prescribed by the physician in this day should not be found to be identical with that which he prescribed before. How could it be otherwise when the ills affecting the sufferer necessitate at every stage of his sickness a special remedy?”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 80
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213
“No man, however acute his perception, can ever hope to reach the heights which the wisdom and understanding of the Divine Physician have attained. Little wonder, then, if the treatment prescribed by the physician in this day should not be found to be identical with that which he prescribed before. How could it be otherwise when the ills affecting the sufferer necessitate at every stage of his sickness a special remedy?”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 80
The upshot, is that time goes by and the old religions no longer have the remedy we need in the present day. God renews the spiritual verities of these religions and brings them back to life so we can make a fresh start. The old religions as they were revealed have been corrupted by man so they are no longer religions of God, they are religions of man. That is why so many nonbelievers think that religion is man-made.
But they were not wrong in their own day. They are only wrong for this new day. But they are not completely wrong, as the spiritual verities are eternal, they never change. It is the message that is wrong in the sense that it is no longer needed and it is the social teachings and laws that were revealed thousands of years ago are wrong for this age.
That is what the leaders of religions did, they corrupted the message, but that is a moot point anyway because that is now an old message that we do not need anymore. It is kind of like who cares if someone messed up an old car I have that does not even run anymore?
I am not trying to prove God is real. Nobody can prove that.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Thanks for sharing your story. I really like to hear personal stories. People on forums do not tell enough of those.
My experience was very different from your experience because I was not brought up in any religion, and I knew nothing of Christianity or the Bible before I stumbled upon the Baha’i Faith during my first year of college. In fact, I knew nothing of Christianity or the Bible for another 42 years after that because I had no interest in religion, not even in the Baha’i Faith, and I saw no reason to study other religions because I was not searching for a religion; I already had one I firmly believed on. I was into academia for many years and that was my main focus.
I was also a Baha’i down in California in the early 70s and I remember what you are talking about. The Baha’i Faith was a lot different back then; people seemed to be on fire. I cannot say what happened because I dropped out for many decades. I remember dropping back in briefly, but then I dropped out again. I did not drop out because I did not believe in Baha’u’llah, but because I had emotional problems I had to resolve and that took all my time and energy. Also, I was in college for about 15 years, and that was my life, as I was also working most of that time so I was very busy. I also got married during those years so there was that. My husband is a long time Baha’i of about 54 years, declared in Southern California. He is a very strong Baha’i but also presently inactive in our Baha’i community. He too had his emotional problems for many years.
I think much of the problem for me personally is that I never connected the religion with God and I had no feelings about God. Then later, I got really angry at God for many years because I blamed God for all my suffering, since my older brother who was also a Baha’i had told me God was punishing me for not being a good Baha’i. That was way out of line and wrong, but I was more vulnerable then, and I felt guilty about my not being a Baha’i, guilty about everything. So I really took that to heart.
Mind you, during these years I did not have an accurate conception of God at all, because I had never studied any religions or what the Baha’i Writings said about God. The basis for my Baha’i declaration and belief was the social and spiritual teachings of Baha’u’llah and Abdu’l-Baha, not including what they wrote about God. I only started to seriously think about being a Baha’i and mending my relationship with God about six years ago when I discovered the Planet Baha’i forum. That opened up a whole new world for me; I learned a lot from the very knowledgeable Baha’is there.
Sadly though, that forum has basically died in the last few years, and all the old timers have left. What IS going on in the Baha’i world? Darned if I know. I know the community I am in is very active from all the e-mails I get about events, but I never attend so I do not know what they are doing. Maybe I should not have an opinion since I am so inactive but I think the Baha’is are putting too much emphasis on community building, community activities and children’s classes; meanwhile not many people are becoming Baha’is.
Do you watch any news on TV? Frankly, I think the Baha’i Faith is the only hope for humanity and the world. Then of course I believe that Baha’u’llah was a Manifestation of God for this age, the Messiah and the Promised One of All Ages. I have no doubt of that whatsoever, which is why I am willing to spend every waking hour on forums. There is nothing more important. Sure, I need to try to have a better relationship with God, but that is minor compared to what is going on in the world, the world is falling apart. Does anybody even care? Then there are all the lost souls in the world who do not even believe in God, or those who believe in the fantasy that Jesus is going to drop down out of the sky any time now. I cannot fathom how people can believe things like this that go against science. How can people believe that bodies will rise from graves when Jesus returns and that there will be a new Garden of Eden?
I am certainly not going looking for people so I can tell them they are wrong but if they pursue me as they do on another forum, they are going to get an earful. That is what I have been doing all day, posting to one atheist who thinks that God should communicate directly with everyone and one Christian who says I am a Baha’i Atheist because I do not believe Jesus is God incarnate. It does not get much crazier than that. I have to come back to this forum to see what normal is.
So if you do not see me for a day or two that is where I am. I am also dealing with a lot of stressful things in my offline life. It is a nightmare. I am sure glad there is a God because that is the only way I stay sane. I also post on another forum in that group but we hardly ever talk about religion there. It is more personal and they talk a lot about politics. It is mostly atheists and a few Christians who are regulars. As usual, I am the only Baha’i. Most Baha’is do not hang out on non-Baha’i forums; the few on this forum are the exception.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Not one of those things you mentioned matters to me. I could not care less what what other people are doing or what they believe. The only thing that matters to me and the only thing that ever mattered to me was if Baha'u'llah was who He claimed to be. I have never doubted that for one minute in over 48 years.
Believing that Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation of God is the only basis for becoming a Baha'i. If there was not one other Baha'i left in the world that would still be true if it is true.
I guess I am just more logical than most people, and more independent. It makes no logical sense that what humans do, no matter who they are or what they call themselves, would have anything to do with what is the Truth from God, for one simple reason: humans are fallible and many are weak, and many have not done any inner healing work. So there will be a lot of dysfunctional Baha'is until they start to face their own personal issues. That might take a very long time, but I do not think that can affect the Cause of God, because it is God's Will and God always gets His Way in the end.
Many do look at all this to unfold in their short life span. God has never worked to mans time frames, albeit men want instant gratification. The writings do not provide a timing on when this will happen. The writings do say "For it is only when the [divine] spirit [of the Cause] has thoroughly permeated the world that the people will begin to enter the Faith in large numbers."
I know of no Baha'i that sees a contradiction in what Baha'u'llah has offered. That would be because if they have found one they have studied further to find it was not a contradiction after all.
But of course you are free to take but a casual glance and built a detailed explanation from that glance.
That controversy was held only by those that wanted power over the Covenant given by Baha'u'llah. An insignificant amount of people to date. The Faith has weathered all and flourished undivided.
Not many Baha'is I know have any spare time. Events like this take time to organise;
World Religion Day - Wikipedia
You are well aware that is not the case. We submit to One God and accept all of Gods Messengers and Prophets. Which means we embrace all of the worlds major Faiths.
As they have proven to work and to make them work means drastically changing our own selves. The simplistic way is to not attempt the required change.
I would see that as an outsider view that has not taken time to look if the role model actually works and it ties back to the simplistic unity comment. Most Baha'i I know havde had to and continue to work hard on finding our unity in our diversity.
A function of the LSA is expansion through teaching, but also working on building viable communities. We acheive this by not actively breaking Baha'i Law by proselytizing. We invite and discuss only with those that choose to do so.
Hope that clears up those few misunderstandings.
Regards Tony