Do Baha'i believe Jesus or the Holy Spirit can cure the Leper?

[TransmutingSoul]

But you don't believe in some of Jesus' miracles..... true? It's bits'n' pieces?

I see we are to use science with reason.

There are miracles mentioned in the Bible attributed to Jesus, I see no valid reason they could not be done as Baha'u'llah also did the same. Science in the future may discover how this can be so. We are told not to use them as proof but to gain spiritual insight from them.

There are Stories in the Bible that are obviously metephorical as science has shown them not to to be possible, thus they obvioisly impart spiritual meanings. Many now see them as only miracles and look no deeper.

It is up to you as to how you use science and reason.

Regards Tony

 

[Niblo]

Thank you Niblo.

In regards the life and of Christ;

Did Jesus heal the blind and cure the leper?

Was He crucified by the Romans as recorded in the Gospels?

Did He rise from the dead after 3 days, appear to his disciples over 40 days then ascend through the stratosphere to be with His Father in Heaven?

In regards Muhammad what is meant by His splitting of moon in two?

Hi Adrian.

Trust a Kiwi to multi-question...akin to attacking from both wings.....and from the centre.....all at once!

ʾIn shāʾ Allāh, I'll make a start tomorrow...saving your second question until last (expect a reply over several posts for this one!).

Do try and contain your excitement .

Very best regards.

 

[Dawnofhope]

If you or the said human rights organization are generalizing the alleged actions of a mere few to 80 million people, then yes you are both absurd, pathetic and irresponsible.

Few are seriously alleging all Iranians are responsible. But How many would seriously believe human rights abuses are the domain of a mere few. That really is ‘absurd, pathetic and irresponsible’. I prefer the word denial.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Adrian...... please read these words of yours from your own thread.............


And so, you seem most uncertain about some claims and more accommodating about others?

That is correct. The world wide flood and the creation of the world in six days, six thousand years ago contradicts everything we know in the natural sciences. It makes no sense God would have done this and then hidden His Handiwork.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Hi Adrian.

Trust a Kiwi to multi-question...akin to attacking from both wings.....and from the centre.....all at once!

ʾIn shāʾ Allāh, I'll make a start tomorrow...saving your second question until last (expect a reply over several posts for this one!).

Do try and contain your excitement .

Very best regards.

Kiwis seem harmless enough, but don’t mess with us in a ruck and maul. Then again you did manage you first home win against the All Blacks recently.

 

[CG Didymus]

We are to balance Faith with our knowledge of science. When we do the superstitions are subdued. We do not burn witches at stakes or persecute scientists that say the earth rotates around the sun, we keep an open mind and continue to search for truth.
Regards Tony

What does science say about why some people are gay? And what does the Bible say about being gay? And what do Baha'is say? If the Baha'i view is different than science, should we listen to science?

 

[CG Didymus]

The Manifestations of God can perform any of the miracles listed. The most important aspect of the miracle gospel stories are the spiritual message they convey. So while Jesus may well have healed the blind man, what’s most relevant is through Christ we see the spiritual path. While the lame man may have been healed, what’s more important is the power of the Word of God to enable us to walk the spiritual path. Perhaps Jesus did raise Lazarus from the dead but in Christ we live. The Baha’is don’t deny any of these miracles but appreciate the spiritual significance.

That's all very nice, but some Baha'is have said that the miracles did not literally happen but were only symbolic... Like raising Lazarus and the rising of Jesus himself. So what do Baha'is really believe? That Jesus did heal lepers but couldn't raise the dead... and couldn't raise himself?

Also, Christians that do believe the miracles literally happened use them to show the power Jesus had over the physical world. Which, for them, is a "proof" of his divinity.

 

[Dawnofhope]

That's all very nice, but some Baha'is have said that the miracles did not literally happen but were only symbolic... Like raising Lazarus and the rising of Jesus himself. So what do Baha'is really believe? That Jesus did heal lepers but couldn't raise the dead... and couldn't raise himself?

Also, Christians that do believe the miracles literally happened use them to show the power Jesus had over the physical world. Which, for them, is a "proof" of his divinity.

None of us were first hand witnesses of the miracles described in the Gospels. In fact, none of the gospel writers may have been either. Christians and Muslims can claim miracles until they are blue in the face. It makes little difference as it’s a weak argument for Divine Powers.

The Holy Manifestations are the sources of miracles and the originators of wonderful signs. For Them, any difficult and impracticable thing is possible and easy. For through a supernatural power wonders appear from Them; and by this power, which is beyond nature, They influence the world of nature. From all the Manifestations marvelous things have appeared.

But in the Holy Books an especial terminology is employed, and for the Manifestations these miracles and wonderful signs have no importance. They do not even wish to mention them. For if we consider miracles a great proof, they are still only proofs and arguments for those who are present when they are performed, and not for those who are absent.

For example, if we relate to a seeker, a stranger to Moses and Christ, marvelous signs, he will deny them and will say: “Wonderful signs are also continually related of false gods by the testimony of many people, and they are affirmed in the Books. The Brahmans have written a book about wonderful prodigies from Brahma.” He will also say: “How can we know that the Jews and the Christians speak the truth, and that the Brahmans tell a lie? For both are generally admitted traditions, which are collected in books, and may be supposed to be true or false.” The same may be said of other religions: if one is true, all are true; if one is accepted, all must be accepted. Therefore, miracles are not a proof. For if they are proofs for those who are present, they fail as proofs to those who are absent.

But in the day of the Manifestation the people with insight see that all the conditions of the Manifestation are miracles, for They are superior to all others, and this alone is an absolute miracle. Recollect that Christ, solitary and alone, without a helper or protector, without armies and legions, and under the greatest oppression, uplifted the standard of God before all the people of the world, and withstood them, and finally conquered all, although outwardly He was crucified. Now this is a veritable miracle which can never be denied. There is no need of any other proof of the truth of Christ.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 100-102

 

[oldbadger]

No that is no true. I see we are Soul/Spirit, that is what gives us this life and it is what we are to develop and nourish.

The entire purpose of this life is to reach our potential as a spiritual being. Christ gives this concept as being born again, that is being born from the flesh to the spiritual. The Human Spirit can connect to the Holy Spirit via the Spirit of Faith.

Regards Tony

OK......
So you do believe in spirits.
Do you believe in spiritualism, spiritual contact, spiritual healing?

 

[oldbadger]

There are miracles mentioned in the Bible attributed to Jesus, I see no valid reason they could not be done as Baha'u'llah also did the same.

Which miracles did Bahauallah carry out that were similar to those of Jesus?

Science in the future may discover how this can be so. We are told not to use them as proof but to gain spiritual insight from them.

How do you gain spiritual insight from hearing about Bahauallah's miracles?
Can you define or describe 'spiritual insight'?
I can understand how a spiritual medium might have spiritual insight, do you believe in mediums?

There are Stories in the Bible that are obviously metephorical as science has shown them not to to be possible, thus they obvioisly impart spiritual meanings. Many now see them as only miracles and look no deeper.

What is 'spiritual' about, say, the flood story?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

OK......
So you do believe in spirits.
Do you believe in spiritualism, spiritual contact, spiritual healing?

There is merit of the Spiritual aspects of healing. It has its place, It will not heal broken bones.

We are told not to use our spirituality in this immature state of being. We are unaware of what we are doing and we can not determine what is good and what is not.

Regards Tony

 

[Niblo]

Kiwis seem harmless enough, but don’t mess with us in a ruck and maul. Then again you did manage you first home win against the All Blacks recently.

Really?.....missed it!

 

[Dawnofhope]

Really?.....missed it!

My bad. It was Ireland, not Wales!

Ireland 16-9 New Zealand: rugby union international – as it happened

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Which miracles did Bahauallah carry out that were similar to those of Jesus?

I will respect the teachings of Baha'u'llah with this request. As this is the internet, I can not control what has been previoisly postsed.?

How do you gain spiritual insight from hearing about Bahauallah's miracles?
Can you define or describe 'spiritual insight'?
I can understand how a spiritual medium might have spiritual insight, do you believe in mediums?

I was suggesting as our spiritual and science abilities advance, it may be seen how things we are now are unaware of, but then discover, have the power to heal. Abilities that all the Manifestestion posess, but see humanity are not ready to use. Baha'u'llah has said many things could not be disclosed, as we were not ready. I see our nuclear capabilities were a very good lesson we need for the future.

We are Spiritual beings. We are shown by the Messengers how to develop our spirituality. The lives of the Messengers are the best example. In this day We were gifted Abdul'baha and we are asked to look at Him, follow his example and be as He was. There has been no better gift to understand what it is to be spiritual than Abdul'baha.

Of course that is my view on the subject.

What is 'spiritual' about, say, the flood story?

It would have many very significant metephors. Things like 40 days and 40 nights. 40 is significant in many Biblical events and Bahá’u’lláh suffered 40 years of imprisonment, torture and exile. Daniel had a prophecy about this.

This link under religion will give ideas - 40 (number) - Wikipedia

The Ark has numerous meanings given in the Baha'i Writings.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

What does science say about why some people are gay? And what does the Bible say about being gay? And what do Baha'is say? If the Baha'i view is different than science, should we listen to science?

Science is still learning about this subject.

There is now some good studies on this subject, how a mindset can also change young minds. I need not offer more than that.

Lets wait and see, that is, if you can not accept what Baha'u'llah offered.

I'm heading home from Melbourne tomorrow, will be flying over Adrian, thus be back in a couple of days

Regards Tony

 

[Niblo]

My bad. It was Ireland, not Wales!

Ireland 16-9 New Zealand: rugby union international – as it happened

I see. Of course, Ireland was really Wales in disguise.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I see. Of course, Ireland was really Wales in disguise.

That would constitute a miracle from God. I didn’t realise the Welsh were God’s chosen people!

 

[loverofhumanity]

Hello everyone,

Baha'is deny --on the basis of science-- the supernatural events and miracles recorded by other religions. Do they also deny that Jesus or the Holy Spirit can cure the Leper or the blind?

The Baha’i Writings do not deny that the Prophets had healing powers only that such miracles were only a proof for those who were present and the real miracle is to be able to change hearts even centuries after Their passing.

if we consider miracles a great proof, they are still only proofs and arguments for those who are present when they are performed, and not for those who are absent. – Abdu’l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 99.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Because I don't differentiate between miracles of true Prophets and don't deny them or claim one was symbolic and the other wasn't, for they are performed by a power bestowed upon them by an Omnipotent God. However Baha'i belief states that these miracles are superstition because they are unscientific:

"If religious beliefs and opinions are found contrary to the standards of science they are mere superstitions and imaginations; for the antithesis of knowledge is ignorance, and the child of ignorance is superstition." – Abdu’l-Baha, Baha’i World Faith, p. 239.
​

Yet, they claim that some of these unscientific superstitions are true, but only they are the one's that can recognize which unscientific superstition we should believe and which one we shouldn't. Which sounds kind of funny because if it's an unscientific superstition based on baha'i teachings, it's an unscientific superstition. They have to deny all miracles and some of them can't magically turn into facts and be acceptable.

Baha’u’llah didn’t like talk of miracles because it degraded the Cause of God to a circus. When He was asked by the religious leaders to perform a miracle to prove His validity as a Manifestation He agreed on condition they accept Him once He performed it.

Bahá’u’lláh replied, “Although you have no right to ask this, for God should test His creatures, and they should not test God, still I allow and accept this request. But the Cause of God is not a theatrical display that is presented every hour, of which some new diversion may be asked for every day. If it were thus, the Cause of God would become mere child’s play.

In the end they couldn’t decide on a miracle and didn’t push the issue further because of fear He would produce it.

The fact He agreed to perform any miracle of their choosing surprised those who challenged Him when He agreed to accept their demand.

The ulamas must, therefore, assemble, and, with one accord, choose one miracle, and write that, after the performance of this miracle they will no longer entertain doubts about Me, and that all will acknowledge and confess the truth of My Cause. Let them seal this paper, and bring it to Me. This must be the accepted criterion: if the miracle is performed, no doubt will remain for them; and if not, We shall be convicted of imposture.”

Baha’u’llah, being a Manifestation of God knew He could perform anything they asked so it was just up to them to choose and they got scared and backed off.

 

[oldbadger]

That is correct. The world wide flood and the creation of the world in six days, six thousand years ago contradicts everything we know in the natural sciences. It makes no sense God would have done this and then hidden His Handiwork.

Yes......... but that is only half the answer to my full question.
You DO believe in Jesus's healing miracles, yes?.... as in 'Divinely empowered miraculous acts' ...or what?

I don't know who, but somebody mentioned that Bahauallah could do or did similar actions..... do you believe that?

Adrian...... I don't have any aches or pains about what Bahais believe; my huge irritation (which you know well enough) is about Bahai World Order, Bahai Policies, Bahai Legislation, Bahai version of democracy, Bahai claims against Islam and particulary Iran........ but it does seem that Bahai beliefs are thoroughly mixed up, because to claim (as I think that you have) that Jesus could carry out Divine Miracles on the one hand yet could not resurrect self after death is a jumble.

For what it's worth I don't think that Jesus was a God, don't think he could enact Divinely powered miracles (most were all natural healings) couldn't bring Lazarus to life, did not resurrect and may even have survived crucifixion, (Josephus wrlote about such incidents). And I don't think that there was anything 'spiritual' about the Baptist's or Yeshua's cleansings and redemptions through immersion, simply a cutting off of the corrupt Temple's fat income from fleecing a hard up populace. For what that's worth....