Do Baha'i believe Jesus or the Holy Spirit can cure the Leper?

[TransmutingSoul]

I, as an Iranian Muslim, am not troubled by those with differing points of view. I might strongly debate with them, but I am not troubled by them. Generalizing your personal experience with a small group of people to 80 million Iranian Muslims is absurd, pathetic, and irresponsible.

I would agree with this statement;

"Generalizing your personal experience with a small group of people to 80 million Iranian Muslims is absurd, pathetic, and irresponsible."

How do you see the change will come about then? When and how will the Baha'i and other minorities share your freedom in Iran?

Regards Tony

 

[George-ananda]

The Baha'i science argument:

"If religious beliefs and opinions are found contrary to the standards of science they are mere superstitions and imaginations; for the antithesis of knowledge is ignorance, and the child of ignorance is superstition." – Abdu’l-Baha, Baha’i World Faith, p. 239.​

What I understand from this is that miracles are outright superstition because they are "contrary to the standards of science". So, unless you can disprove my understanding, you are the one that fails to understand the Baha'i science argument.

At no point does that statement claim that the current science of Abdu'l Baha's day knew everything there is to know. It is part of the scientific mindset to make observation of things like miracles that are not yet explained in science.

Science does not say and can not say miracles are impossible. So believing in miracles does not contradict science.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

What I understand from this is that miracles are outright superstition because they are "contrary to the standards of science". So, unless you can disprove my

From my understanding of the Baha'i Writings, it is we are to find a balance in Faith and the balance is our current undestanding of science.

Also to me the purpose of all these talks, was to offer that we should not reject a Messenger, because our mind is based only on miracles.

I see in the future this will be different. It will be different as when our minds all join together in a unity of purpose, amazing things will be possible. As we explore the religious writings and pursue worthwhile science, we will unlock more amazing scientific wonders and the two wings of the bird of science and religion will soar.

Chat to some Baha'is in Iran and you will discover they are more than happy to discuss this with you. I would offer, they may be cautious if you were to approach them with these questions.

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

Adrian, you have done exactly that which you have accused others of...... you have cherry picked a single statement by Bahauallah's (great?) grandson rather than go directly to what Bahauallah wrote himself.

You have already been shown Bahai writings which state something different about the miracles of Jesus.

The statement provided by the Guardian for any Baha’i resolves the matter. Shoghi Effendi was the leader of the Baha’i Faith and authorised interpreter of the Baha’i writings. He was appointed by Abdul-Bahá as Abd’ul-Bahá had been appointed by Bahá’u’lláh.

In considering what Bahá’u’lláh teaches its necessary to consider the relevant statements of Abdu’l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi. I think you know that.

Please could you share with us about any miracles that Bahai accepts really occurred. Or possibly you could tell us about any miracle that you personally believe happened?

In regards the OP question I’m good with Jesus having healed a leper and a blind man. None of us have any way of knowing for certain.

 

[Dawnofhope]

They believe everything in the Holy Books is symbolic and their leaders must interpret them one way or another:

"As to the record in the Bible concerning Adam's entering paradise, His eating from the tree and His expulsion through the temptation of Satan: These are all symbols beneath which there are wonderful and divine meanings not to be calculated in years, dates and measurement of time. Likewise, the statement that God created the heaven and the earth in six days is symbolic. We will not explain this further today. The texts of the Holy Books are all symbolical, needing authoritative interpretation." (Abdu'l-Baha, Promulgation of Universal Peace, pp. 219-220)​

What Abdul-Bahá says is in reference to the story of creation and Adam and Eve as recorded in the book of Genesis. It can’t possibly refer to every single verse in every single holy book. For example Baha’is like Muslims and Christians believe Jesus was a real person born to the Virgin Mary.

 

[oldbadger]

I would not personally offer any of these as proof. It would just be the greatest insult as to why Baha'u'llah was given the Message He has shared with us.

Imagine the greatest miracle. Oldbadger now and oldbadger a Baha'i next week.

This happens in this world, on a daily basis and please, my advice is never say never.

Regards Tony

Fair enough, Tony, but another member had mentioned that Bahai does believe in miracles, and I got the feeling that this referred to lepers healed and blinded given sight.

 

[oldbadger]

Thats my answer.

Regards Tony

Fair enough, Tony.
I acknowledge your answer and your concept of miracles.

I must come back later.......

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Fair enough, Tony, but another member had mentioned that Bahai does believe in miracles, and I got the feeling that this referred to lepers healed and blinded given sight.

I also beleive this can happen.

The key here is that they do not prove what a Messenger came to do and I see that is the intent of all the passages.

As science and religion harmonize in the mind of man, we will be dumfounded as to what is possible, as would a person in the time of Christ if they were to be here today.

We are to balance Faith with our knowledge of science. When we do the superstitions are subdued. We do not burn witches at stakes or persecute scientists that say the earth rotates around the sun, we keep an open mind and continue to search for truth.

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

I, as an Iranian Muslim, am not troubled by those with differing points of view. I might strongly debate with them, but I am not troubled by them. Generalizing your personal experience with a small group of people to 80 million Iranian Muslims is absurd, pathetic, and irresponsible.

Yet Iran has laws that severely restrict freedom of speech.

One who converts from Islam to another religion may be convicted of apostasy and put to death.

World Report 2015: Rights Trends in World Report 2015: Iran

Are human rights organisations absurd, pathetic and irresponsible?

 

[Dawnofhope]

I don't go reading through Baha'i stuff to find quotes out of context. This was from a pro Baha'i writer site. So, if anything, it was that Baha'i adherent that took it out of context, not me. When debates pop up, I like to research both sides. It's only fair and sensible.

As you might expect, I personally believe in miracles. They happen all the time, all around us. But then too, some fraudsters can play tricks of deception to think stuff they do is miraculous.

So is it not possible to take a quote from a Baha’i website out of context? The Baha’is here are unanimous in saying we believe miracles can happen. Do you believe us or do you think we are being deceptive?

 

[Dawnofhope]

Hi Adrian.

What would you like to discuss?

Have a great day, and very best regards.

Thank you Niblo.

In regards the life and of Christ;

Did Jesus heal the blind and cure the leper?

Was He crucified by the Romans as recorded in the Gospels?

Did He rise from the dead after 3 days, appear to his disciples over 40 days then ascend through the stratosphere to be with His Father in Heaven?

In regards Muhammad what is meant by His splitting of moon in two?

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

At no point does that statement claim that the current science of Abdu'l Baha's day knew everything there is to know. It is part of the scientific mindset to make observation of things like miracles that are not yet explained in science.

Science does not say and can not say miracles are impossible. So believing in miracles does not contradict science.

There is the double-standard right there:

If a Baha'i justifies his beliefs in miracles by claiming "miracles are not yet explained in science", it's a good response but if I make the same claim to justify my belief in Moses splitting the sea, Noah living for 950 years and the great flood, or Muhammad splitting the moon, I am wrong and superstitious and unscientific.

 

[oldbadger]

There is the double-standard right there:

If a Baha'i justifies his beliefs in miracles by claiming "miracles are not yet explained in science", it's a good response but if I make the same claim to justify my belief in Moses splitting the sea, Noah living for 950 years and the great flood, or Muhammad splitting the moon, I am wrong and superstitious and unscientific.

Very good post.
Deadly point.

 

[George-ananda]

There is the double-standard right there:

If a Baha'i justifies his beliefs in miracles by claiming "miracles are not yet explained in science", it's a good response but if I make the same claim to justify my belief in Moses splitting the sea, Noah living for 950 years and the great flood, or Muhammad splitting the moon, I am wrong and superstitious and unscientific.

I happen to believe in miracles but others might call that ‘wrong and superstitious and unscientific’. So, I will then disagree. That’s how it goes.

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

Are human rights organisations absurd, pathetic and irresponsible?

If you or the said human rights organization are generalizing the alleged actions of a mere few to 80 million people, then yes you are both absurd, pathetic and irresponsible.

 

[oldbadger]

..........................in regards the OP question I’m good with Jesus having healed a leper and a blind man. None of us have any way of knowing for certain.

Adrian...... please read these words of yours from your own thread.............

.................There wasn’t a worldwide flood. People don’t live to 950 years of age. Reincarnation is a myth. There was no resurrection of Christ. There’s no Satan. Muhammad didn’t split the moon in two. But if people want to believe some or all of these, that is their right. We are entitled to believe as we believe. ................

And so, you seem most uncertain about some claims and more accommodating about others?

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

Adrian...... please read these words of yours from your own thread.............


And so, you seem most uncertain about some claims and more accommodating about others?

That is the exact point I brought up in the first page and got attacked for it:

I find it arrogant that Baha'is think they are the standard for understanding and recognizing what miracle really occurred and what didn't.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

There is the double-standard right there:

I think the standard has been made clear. They are not proofs that we should use for any Messenger.

I think your OP has proved the wisdom of that appraoch.

It is most likely why Jesus said tell no one.

Thus also the wisdom of Abdul'baha's talks. Look for the spiritual meaning in these stories and in the events. What are they teling us about our true nature as spiritual beings.

Regards Tony

 

[oldbadger]

I also beleive this can happen.

Well then........... you believe in the healings of Jesus.

The key here is that they do not prove what a Messenger came to do and I see that is the intent of all the passages.

No Tony..... there isn't any key to this. We are just discussing whether Jesus could accomplish literal miracles.
Me? I do not think that Jesus could carry out literal miracles. But you do...... it's as easy as that.
But you don't believe in some of Jesus' miracles..... true? It's bits'n' pieces?

As science and religion harmonize in the mind of man, we will be dumfounded as to what is possible, as would a person in the time of Christ if they were to be here today.

We are to balance Faith with our knowledge of science. When we do the superstitions are subdued. We do not burn witches at stakes or persecute scientists that say the earth rotates around the sun, we keep an open mind and continue to search for truth.

Regards Tony

Tony, this is religio-waffle imo, and since you believe in things spiritual but don't believe in spirits (true?) this is just another bits'n'pieces idea to save from 'stepping forward' with your absolute doctrines.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Tony, this is religio-waffle imo, and since you believe in things spiritual but don't believe in spirits (true?)

No that is no true. I see we are Soul/Spirit, that is what gives us this life and it is what we are to develop and nourish.

The entire purpose of this life is to reach our potential as a spiritual being. Christ gives this concept as being born again, that is being born from the flesh to the spiritual. The Human Spirit can connect to the Holy Spirit via the Spirit of Faith.

Regards Tony