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If you believe

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
There is no change. The messenger comes only to reiterate the original message and admonish the people to follow the Law and return to G-d.

That is mostly confirmed by Baha'u'llah except he has told us of the unchangeable aspect and what does change to suit the day of the new Message.

The world teaches us this. Within the set natural laws is a changeable aspect. Each season bringing a diversity.

Each day rises, but no day the same.

Regards Tony
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
All these monotheisms have the same problem: dependence on scriptures which one has to take on trust. They all contradict each other and often on trivial matters. The Baha'i tell me I mustn't drink alcohol, while the Christians and Jews say I can. Is this really a new revelation, or just due to the fact that Bahá'u'lláh was raised a Muslim? And what of the Baha'i's apparent endorsement of "conversion therapy" for homosexuals? To me Baha'i are just Christians/Muslims with a superficial smile.

The strength of the Abrahamic Faiths is we have a reliable record of what G-d revealed. Of course those revelations has been over thousand of years in vastly different cultures so of course there will be inconsistencies and contradictions. It would be naïve to imagine otherwise.

In regards alcohol, there is no encouragement to consume alcohol in Judaism or Christianity and in Islam and the Baha'i Faith it is against G-d's law.

None of the Abrahamic Faiths have G-d endorsing homosexuality.
 

Segev Moran

Well-Known Member
Came to faith 30+ years ago, rejected evangelical fundalism 20 years ago.

If you believe that down through the ages that God has spoken through many people, then it would seem logical that one could embrace the teaching of Baha'u'llah.
I believe that god spoken through only a few and many others confuse their own understandings to Gods words :)
One of the hard things is to be able to know which is which ;)
 

GoodbyeDave

Well-Known Member
The strength of the Abrahamic Faiths is we have a reliable record of what G-d revealed.
Who says it's reliable?

The Jewish scripture is myth, not history. Now I have no trouble with myth, but as an inspiration for thought — when some-one says "this is what God said to Moses", I'm going to ask "how do you know?"

Christianity is just a misinterpretation: Jesus was quite clear that he though himself the Jewish Messiah and that's clearly what his followers believed. The rest was invented later.

Islam tells me that God sent a message to Muhammad. How can I check that? And how does the conduct of Muhammad, let alone his followers, support his claim?

Baha'i starts by asking me to accept all that. If I can't accept the starting point, I'm not going to set out on your journey.
 

Trackdayguy

Speed doesn't kill, it's hitting the wall
The strength of the Abrahamic Faiths is we have a reliable record of what G-d revealed. Of course those revelations has been over thousand of years in vastly different cultures so of course there will be inconsistencies and contradictions. It would be naïve to imagine otherwise.

In regards alcohol, there is no encouragement to consume alcohol in Judaism or Christianity and in Islam and the Baha'i Faith it is against G-d's law.

None of the Abrahamic Faiths have G-d endorsing homosexuality.

Actually its NOT against God's law, it's what a fallen man interpreted that God was saying through his own brokenness, culture and world view. Although I believe that Bahaullah was a man with a heart for God and had a message from God, its crystal clear that much of his writings where coming from his own cultural experience.

Like most religions they have a problem with sex & booze.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Actually its NOT against God's law, it's what a fallen man interpreted that God was saying through his own brokenness, culture and world view. Although I believe that Bahaullah was a man with a heart for God and had a message from God, its crystal clear that much of his writings where coming from his own cultural experience.

Like most religions they have a problem with sex & booze.

That is the challenge we face in life, what is from us and what is from God.

Regards Tony
 

Trackdayguy

Speed doesn't kill, it's hitting the wall
The strength of the Abrahamic Faiths is we have a reliable record of what G-d revealed. Of course those revelations has been over thousand of years in vastly different cultures so of course there will be inconsistencies and contradictions. It would be naïve to imagine otherwise.

In regards alcohol, there is no encouragement to consume alcohol in Judaism or Christianity and in Islam and the Baha'i Faith it is against G-d's law.


None of the Abrahamic Faiths have G-d endorsing homosexuality.

Actually that's not correct. In the BIble Paul encourages Timothy to drink some wine. Regardless. Do we really believe that the God who made the heaven and Earth is the slightest bit interested in whether or not you like a Beer.

PLEASE....
 
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TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Who says it's reliable?

The Jewish scripture is myth, not history. Now I have no trouble with myth, but as an inspiration for thought — when some-one says "this is what God said to Moses", I'm going to ask "how do you know?"

Christianity is just a misinterpretation: Jesus was quite clear that he though himself the Jewish Messiah and that's clearly what his followers believed. The rest was invented later.

Islam tells me that God sent a message to Muhammad. How can I check that? And how does the conduct of Muhammad, let alone his followers, support his claim?

Baha'i starts by asking me to accept all that. If I can't accept the starting point, I'm not going to set out on your journey.

I doubt any historian of any worth would debate the records of the Bible and Quran are not well preserved.

Any worthwhile search requires us to make an effort. How much effort is our choice and the results usually reflect the effort we made.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Actually that's not correct. In the BIble Paul encourages Timothy to drink some wine. Regardless. Do we really believe that the God who made the heaven and Earth is the slightest bit interested in whether of not you like a Beer.

PLEASE....

It is worth considering that wine and intoxication is used many times in scriptures to describe a spiritual state on mind and heart.

Regards Tony
 

Trackdayguy

Speed doesn't kill, it's hitting the wall
What religion does, is make rules just in case there's a problem. What is having a beer got to do with intoxication, NOTHING. It's man made laws. What picture does that paint of God??? A God who is against you for enjoying sexual pleasure and having a beer. And please let's not talk about sex in the context of monogamy, which isn't a Biblical model.

As I said most religions have a problem with sex & booze.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Actually its NOT against God's law, it's what a fallen man interpreted that God was saying through his own brokenness, culture and world view. Although I believe that Bahaullah was a man with a heart for God and had a message from God, its crystal clear that much of his writings where coming from his own cultural experience.

Like most religions they have a problem with sex & booze.

I know many good people who consume alcohol in moderation, who are in relationship and not married, or who are in same sex relationships. Within that framework they may be just as committed to living a moral life than any follower of a religion.

On the other hand both our countries have rates of divorce, children growing up in dysfunctional home environments, alcohol and drug abuse, rates of mental health problems, levels of violence and homicide, sexual assaults, sexually transmitted diseases and homelessness. Alcohol and toxic relationships contribute. Would avoiding alcohol and waiting until getting married before having sex help?

Many good and reasonable people I've come across believe as you do, in regards the cultural influences of religion. There is good evidence to support how such influences have affected the development of all religions including the Baha'i Faith.

The other side of the coin is that Baha'is believe Baha'u'llah to be the Manifestation of G-d for this day and His laws are a revelation from G-d. Whether or not that reflects reality is just another interesting discussion to have on a forum such as this.

Actually that's not correct. In the BIble Paul encourages Timothy to drink some wine. Regardless. Do we really believe that the God who made the heaven and Earth is the slightest bit interested in whether or not you like a Beer.

That is certainly true lol.

Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.
1 Timothy 5:23

Problem is that literally (Drink no water, drink wine), we have a great recipe for alcoholism.

We don't know for certain who wrote the first epistle of Timothy and what exactly the author was getting at. Maybe wine was a metaphor for the Word of God. I can tell you from a medical perspective that alcohol is a known cause of the very common medical problems of gastritis and stomach ulcers. Would a little wine really help? I doubt it.

The Bible certainly has much to say regarding the drinking of alcohol;

And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
Ephesians 5:18

Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes?
They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine.
Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.
At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.
Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things.
Yea, thou shalt be as he that lieth down in the midst of the sea, or as he that lieth upon the top of a mast.
They have stricken me, shalt thou say, and I was not sick; they have beaten me, and I felt it not: when shall I awake? I will seek it yet again.

Proverbs 23:29-35

One think is for certain, and that is alcohol for some people is addictive and we have no way of knowing for certain who will be one of the 15-20 % of people who consume alcohol that develop a significant problem with it.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Who says it's reliable?

The Jewish scripture is myth, not history. Now I have no trouble with myth, but as an inspiration for thought — when some-one says "this is what God said to Moses", I'm going to ask "how do you know?"

I would argue that it’s part history, part allegorical myth. Using modern historical analysis it would be difficult to verify anything before the Babylonian exile.

It is the substance, not exact content that imakes it reliable. That through turning to G-d and His laws the Hebrew peoples were able to unite and thrive. The stories of the Tanakh are certainly supported, if not entirely literally, by the Revelations that came later. These are more verifiable from an historic perspective, particularly the Quran and Baha’i writings, to a lesser extent the New Testament.

Christianity is just a misinterpretation: Jesus was quite clear that he though himself the Jewish Messiah and that's clearly what his followers believed. The rest was invented later.

The Gospels were most likely all written well within the first century Christ lived, perhaps as early as 25 to 30 years for Mark. Some of the epistles were written earlier. The Gospel of John may have been written by the apostle John. At worse the gospel stories would have been based on 2nd or 3rd generation Christians through oral traditions. Like Genesis some of it would have been allegorical narratives and not literally true.

Islam tells me that God sent a message to Muhammad. How can I check that? And how does the conduct of Muhammad, let alone his followers, support his claim?

You can take the time to study the Quran and it’s historical origins. You can also separate what we really know from myth so as to have a more objective understanding of who Muhammad was.

Baha'i starts by asking me to accept all that. If I can't accept the starting point, I'm not going to set out on your journey.

The Baha’i Faith teaches independent investigation of reality, and not being blinded by our prejudices or those of others. Beyond saying what Baha’is believe and what I think, I’m not asking you for anything.
 
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Trackdayguy

Speed doesn't kill, it's hitting the wall
I appreciate and respect that you believe that Baha'u'llah to be the Manifestation of God for this day and His laws are a revelation from God, but just because you believe it doesn't make it true.

The problem with nearly all religions is they legislate behaviour. If you believe the story of the origin of mankind, the Garden Story, (I dont) then you will obviously understand that God didn't have many rules. Dont the eat the apple.
 

Trackdayguy

Speed doesn't kill, it's hitting the wall
The Baha’i Faith teaches independent investigation of reality, and not being blinded by our prejudices or those of others. Beyond saying what Baha’is believe and what I think, I’m not asking you for anything.

Then it would seem logical then that Bahai's would have concluded that legislating against behaviour doesn't work.

What sort of picture of God are the Bahai community trying to communicate when they legislate against sex outside of marriage/monogamy, (which we know doesn't work) and enforcing a no booze rule.

REALLY....
 
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Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Then it would seem logical then that Bahai's would have concluded that legislating against behaviour doesn't work.

What sort of picture of God are the Bahai community trying to communicate when they legislate against sex outside of marriage/monogamy, (which we know doesn't work) and enforcing a no booze rule.

REALLY....

Most laws are between the individual and G-d. Baha’is follow the laws because they believe in Bahá’u’lláh and believe following His Teachings makes us better people. Baha’is don’t follow the laws because other Baha’is are policing their actions. That’s not how it works. If someone becomes a Baha’i and drinks alcohol in the privacy of their home that’s between them and G-d and no one else.
 
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Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
I appreciate and respect that you believe that Baha'u'llah to be the Manifestation of God for this day and His laws are a revelation from God, but just because you believe it doesn't make it true.

It doesn’t make it not true either. We all need to read the reality of our lives and find what works for each of us. What works for you may not work for me.

The problem with nearly all religions is they legislate behaviour. If you believe the story of the origin of mankind, the Garden Story, (I dont) then you will obviously understand that God didn't have many rules. Dont the eat the apple.

Genuine religions give their members space to work out for themselves and treat them as the responsible independent adults we all are.

The stories of creation and Adam and Eve in Genesis are allegorical and not literally true.
 

Trackdayguy

Speed doesn't kill, it's hitting the wall
So if I decide to become a Bahai and turn up at a local gathering with a bottle of wine and my wife who is bi sexual and her girl friend would that be ok?

Because if it isn’t ok, then by default you are saying that I can’t be fully embraced into the Baha’i Faith unless I abide by all these man made rules. Which we all know have little or nothing to do with true spirituality
 
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Trackdayguy

Speed doesn't kill, it's hitting the wall
In the end Bahá’u’lláh grew up as a Muslin where alcohol and sex were fround upon, so it would seem obvious that any message he proclaims would be seasoned with his own world view of reality.

Don’t get me wrong I think a lot of the stuff he taught was great, but in the end he’s just another fallen and broken man as we all are.

I guess it would be better if many of todays religions stopped worshipping men and their man made rules
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
So if I decide to become a Bahai and turn up at a local gathering with a bottle of wine and my wife who is bi sexual and her girl friend would that be ok?

When Jesus was asked of the most importantant commandment He essentially quoted from Deuteronomy 6:5 in saying low G-d. If you truly loved G-d and believed Baha'u'llah to the Manifestation of G-d for this age, you wouldn't behave in such a manner and of course it wouldn't be OK.

Because if it isn’t ok, then by default you are saying that I can’t be fully embraced into the Baha’i Faith unless I abide by all these man made rules. Which we all know have little or nothing to do with true spirituality

Go back to the two most important laws that Jesus taught, love G-d and love your neighbour. If these laws have nothing to do with true spirituality in your eyes, then what is spirituality to you?
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
In the end Bahá’u’lláh grew up as a Muslin where alcohol and sex were fround upon, so it would seem obvious that any message he proclaims would be seasoned with his own world view of reality.

The laws in regard consumption of alcohol are a major challenge to some who investigate the Faith in the West.

Islam is not opposed to sex. It is opposed to sex outside the confines of a heterosexual marriage.

Don’t get me wrong I think a lot of the stuff he taught was great, but in the end he’s just another fallen and broken man as we all are.

Why do you consider Bahá’u’lláh to have been a broken and fallen man?

I guess it would be better if many of todays religions stopped worshipping men and their man made rules

So what do you see as being the path to true spiritulity?
 
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