If you believe

[Dawnofhope]

No it didn't. In the prophets and writings, G-d assures Israel that He will never abandon them.

1 Kings, 6:13
"And I will dwell among the children of Israel and will not forsake my people Israel.”

Isaiah, 54:8-10
“With a little wrath I hid My face from you for a moment; but with everlasting kindness I will have mercy on you,” says the Lord, your Redeemer. “This is like the waters of Noah to Me; for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah would no longer cover the earth, so have I sworn that I would not be angry with you, nor rebuke you. The mountains shall depart and the hills be removed, but My kindness shall not depart from you, nor shall My covenant of peace be removed,” says the Lord, Who has mercy on you.

Jeremiah, 31:35-36
Thus says the Lord, Who gives the sun for light by day and the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar – the Lord of hosts is His name: If this fixed order were ever to cease from My presence, says the Lord, then also the offspring of Israel would cease to be a nation before Me forever.

Thus says the Lord: If the heavens above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth below can be explored, then I will reject all the offspring of Israel because of all they have done.

G-d will not abandon His people Israel.

I never said G-d would abandon His people, just the provisions of the Covenant changed. The Jewish people were exiled from Israel for over 1,800 years.

We had the first exile through the invasion of the Babylonians and the eventual restoration of Jerusalem and the second temple. Had the Jewish people followed the laws they would have been protected from their enemies as G-d promised (Psalm 110:1-7).

The nature of the relationship changed as evidenced by withdrawal of G-d's protection.

Ironically Isaiah 54:8-10 alludes to a change in the provisions of the Covenant as was established through Noah (Genesis 9:9-17).

Jeremiah 31:31 speaks clearly of a New Covenant.

So G-d did not abandon the people of Israel. If anything the people of Israel abandoned G-d and the relationship betwen the two parties deteriorated.

 

[Rival]

In Jeremiah 31 verse 31, it talks of a new covernant and when we get to verse 35 the 'Lord of Hosts' is Baha'u'llah.

This is nonsense. The New Covenant is this:

But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

The Law will be written on hearts and everyone will know G-d, so that no-one will need teach about Him.

 

[Rival]

I never said G-d would abandon His people, just the provisions of the Covenant changed. The Jewish people were exiled from Israel for over 1,800 years.

Where did they change? What did they change to?

The Torah is clear that the Covenant, and thus its terms, are forever.

Deut:11:1
You shall therefore love the LORD your God and keep his charge, his statutes, his rules, and his commandments always.

Deut 4:30-31
When you are in distress and all these things have come upon you, in the latter days you will return to the LORD your God and listen to His voice. “For the LORD your God is a compassionate God; He will not fail you nor destroy you nor forget the covenant with your fathers which He swore to them.

Psalm 119:160
The entirety of Your word is truth,
And every one of Your righteous judgments endures forever.

Deut. 4:2
You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.

The nature of the relationship changed as evidenced by withdrawal of G-d's protection.

Since when? Their relationship is based on the Covenant. The Covenant has not changed. If they do what G-d tells them, they are all good, and G-d has sworn never to forsake His people.

Ironically Isaiah 54:8-10 alludes to a change in the provisions of the Covenant as was established through Noah (Genesis 9:9-17).

No it doesn't. You are just reading that in there.

Jeremiah 31:31 speaks clearly of a New Covenant.

See my above response.

So G-d did not abandon the people of Israel. If anything the people of Israel abandoned G-d and the relationship betwen the two parties deteriorated.

Not because G-d changed anything. The Jewish people only need keep the Torah and do what is commanded therein.The Covenant is forever, as I have specified, and if it doesn't change how does your theology make any sense?

 

[Dawnofhope]

@Rival ,

Why do think the Jewish people experienced the second exile for such a long period of time? Do you think there was anything in the Tanakh where the prophets saw such an outcome?

 

[wizanda]

Since when? Their relationship is based on the Covenant. The Covenant has not changed. If they do what G-d tells them, they are all good, and G-d has sworn never to forsake His people.

Malachi 4:4-6 states Elijah (John the Baptist) and the Lord (Yeshua) placed the Curse; which we see happened historically (Zechariah 11)...

Where both the Abrahamic (Zechariah 11:10) and Israel/Judah (Zechariah 11:14) Covenants were nullified as Jeremiah 33:14-26 recorded.

The Lord has not forsaken his people, they paid 30 pieces of silver to divorce him; so that only those who actually accept the Lord's Salvation (Yeshua), are welcome in the Age to Come.

It says this in Moses Curse, they've rejected their Lord (Yah - Eloh), and their God (EL); they're just blinded to seeing it (Deuteronomy 28:28-29), so only those who are true will remain after the Fire.

Deuteronomy 32:15 But Jeshurun grew fat, and kicked. You have grown fat. You have grown thick. You have become sleek. Then they abandoned their Divine Being (Eloh) who made them, and rejected the Rock of their salvation (Yeshua).

Deuteronomy 32:18 Of the Rock (Yeshua) who became your father, you are unmindful, and have forgotten God (EL = CPU) who gave you birth.

In my opinion.

 

[Rival]

@Rival ,

Why do think the Jewish people experienced the second exile for such a long period of time? Do you think there was anything in the Tanakh where the prophets saw such an outcome?

Yes, because there is the notion of a Third Temple being built, and the Jewish people returning to their land and the coming of the messiah, who will be a King over them in their land. Exile theology is complex (well, I find it so) and I don't think I'm qualified to talk about it as it's not my strong point. I wouldn't want to talk nonsense to you.

@Tumah

 

[Dawnofhope]

Yes, because there is the notion of a Third Temple being built, and the Jewish people returning to their land and the coming of the messiah, who will be a King over them in their land. Exile theology is complex (well, I find it so) and I don't think I'm qualified to talk about it as it's not my strong point. I wouldn't want to talk nonsense to you.

@Tumah

That's fine. I'm just interested in how you make sense of it. I recall you said you had become a Noahide just over two years ago so I imagine its an evolving perspective.

I visited Israel back in 2004. Have you ever been there?

 

[Rival]

I visited Israel back in 2004. Have you ever been there?

No, I haven't the money, nor the desire really. I have travelled to a few places, when I was a child, and enjoyed it very much; but right now travel isn't really on my agenda. Need to put my life in order.

 

[Dawnofhope]

No, I haven't the money, nor the desire really. I have travelled to a few places, when I was a child, and enjoyed it very much; but right now travel isn't really on my agenda. Need to put my life in order.

It makes sense. We all have a different journey. I sorted out my faith in my mid 20s, felt called to medicine late 20s and didn't get to do much travel until my mid 30s.

Its good you have discovered Judaism. As I see it we believe in the same G-d and Tanakh. Beyond that G-d alone knows the truth. I'm going to retire for the night. Thanks for the chat

 

[shunyadragon]

It does not matter to you if G-d said the Torah is for the Jews for all time and then reneges on that with Christianity, and then goes back on that by sending Muhammad, whose messages contradicts both prior faiths and so on?

That is not my view nor that of the Baha'i Faith. The concept of progressive Revelation is the progressive spiritual maturity of humanity. The individual religions are for the time they were revealed. There exclusive tribal claims for 'all time,' contradictions and the corruption of scripture and beliefs is a fallible human problem.

 

[shunyadragon]

No. On what grounds should that person accept bahaullah if bahai believe in diversity of thought and choice of all religious god or not?

The diversity of thought is an attribute of being human, represents the spiritual heritage of humanity and ancient scripture still provides inspiration and understanding of the spiritual nature of being human. Progressive Revelation is the evolving progressive spiritual education of humanity, and new teachings for humanity. There is a factual basis for this view in the reality of history.

 

[shunyadragon]

Yes, a law is down to interpretation, but if a part of that law is 'This law is for you forever' and a later self-proclaimed prophet comes and says, 'God says do it like this now,' that is clearly illogical. Such as G-d saying he does not ask for human sacrifice, that the thought never entered His mind, yet Christians claim Jesus as a human sacrifice. These things are illogical. They do not follow.

The claim that their laws are 'forever is a human claim in the scripture to establish their authority and exclusiveness forever. This is in contradiction in the scripture of these same ancient religions that indeed laws and spiritual teachings change and evolve over time.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Came to faith 30+ years ago, rejected evangelical fundalism 20 years ago.

If you believe that down through the ages that God has spoken through many people, then it would seem logical that one could embrace the teaching of Baha'u'llah.

God has spoken through few people, not many, these few report in the Bible over 6,000 times, "Hear now the Word of the LORD." Another few people, a fraction of all born agains, who are a fraction of all people, speak for God now, adding to, but not taking away from, Holy Writ.

 

[Rival]

The claim that their laws are 'forever is a human claim in the scripture to establish their authority and exclusiveness forever. This is in contradiction in the scripture of these same ancient religions that indeed laws and spiritual teachings change and evolve over time.

So even if it's written in the scripture it's not good enough for you? Then this debate is over.

 

[shunyadragon]

So even if it's written in the scripture it's not good enough for you? Then this debate is over.

It depends on what is defined as scripture. It is a historic fact that what is called scripture evolved over time edited, redacted and compiled by humans. From the Humanist perspective this the natural evolution of religion from the human perspective. If you take the Baha'i perspective it is the natural spiritual evolution of scripture containing Revelation from God, but edited, redacted, and evolved with human influence.

If you wish to shut down and the discussion based on your agenda, no problem, and so be it.

 

[GoodbyeDave]

All these monotheisms have the same problem: dependence on scriptures which one has to take on trust. They all contradict each other and often on trivial matters. The Baha'i tell me I mustn't drink alcohol, while the Christians and Jews say I can. Is this really a new revelation, or just due to the fact that Bahá'u'lláh was raised a Muslim? And what of the Baha'i's apparent endorsement of "conversion therapy" for homosexuals? To me Baha'i are just Christians/Muslims with a superficial smile.

 

[Trackdayguy]

I think the real issue David is that regardless who it is that speaks or claims to speak for God, ultimately what they believe God is saying to them is interpreted through their own hurt, culture and world view, so I have no problem that alcohol is forbidden by the Baha'i' and accepted by the christian and Jew, no problem. I for one believe that Bahaullah was a profit, was he God? NO, was his interpretation subject to error, YES OF COURSE.

Drink in the good and spit out the bad

 

[TransmutingSoul]

This is nonsense. The New Covenant is this:

But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

The Law will be written on hearts and everyone will know G-d, so that no-one will need teach about Him.

That is how Prophecy works and always has.

G_d sends his Messenger prior to the change and gives the Message that will lead humanity to all that is good. It is then our acceptance or rejection that will unfold the prophecy.

Like this, which is the prophecy of the Banishment of Baha'u'llah from Persia.

Micah 7:12 "In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain."

It takes time for all to see it undold, a few with pure detachment see it first, then the rest of us follow.

Regards Tony

 

[Rival]

G_d sends his Messenger prior to the change

There is no change. The messenger comes only to reiterate the original message and admonish the people to follow the Law and return to G-d.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yes, because there is the notion of a Third Temple being built, and the Jewish people returning to their land and the coming of the messiah, who will be a King over them in their land. Exile theology is complex (well, I find it so) and I don't think I'm qualified to talk about it as it's not my strong point. I wouldn't want to talk nonsense to you.

@Tumah

I see G_ds Messengers are always the promissed Kings, it is always over the Spiritual kingdom they bring. G_D has always allowed man to rule this earth, but the Covernant is they must follow the given Law and remember G_d.

I see that the Third Temple is Baha'u'llah. It is a challenging tablet by Baha'u'llah and features in the 'Summons of the Lord of Hosts'.

Regards Tony