Does the Bible mention Islam?

[Marcion]

Understanding has many levels from ignorance to fully enlightened. It is our ignorance that can not see what it is to be fully enlightened. We all face this issue.

There is a Muslim tradition that I contemplate upon in regards to this matter;

"The good deeds of he righteous are the sins of the near ones".

Regards Tony

Was that a 'yes'?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Was that a 'yes'?

Your choice as to what you understand.

A Baha'i submits to God, but you have already said that you understand, in the remark I replied to.

Muhammad's Message was that of Submission to Allah, I see it is also Biblical.

Regards Tony

 

[Marcion]

You submitted to the opinion of Bahaullah, that is what you confirmed.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You submitted to the opinion of Bahaullah, that is what you confirmed.

That is what you beleive.

Regards Tony

 

[Marcion]

That is what you beleive.

Regards Tony

Are you denying it now?

 

[Vinayaka]

So what your answer boils down to is: 'we have to trust the opinions of the main Bahai authorities'?
On what basis do you trust their opinion(s)?

Baha'i authorities are also infallible, self-declared, just so you know. Practicing Baha'i have bought into the program, and there is plenty of evidence of that on these forums.

Do you consider your teacher infallible as well?

 

[Vinayaka]

Are you denying it now?

lol ... good luck with this. You're about the tenth person now to try to find even the slightest of cracks in the armor. So far the armor has stood up well.

 

[Marcion]

Baha'i authorities are also infallible, self-declared, just so you know. Practicing Baha'i have bought into the program, and there is plenty of evidence of that on these forums.

Do you consider your teacher infallible as well?

I have never heard him say that he is infallible.
The teachings sound true and consistent enough but I would never accept anything that sounds illogical or is given just on the basis of authority.
In fact I would immediately distrust a teacher that uses mere authority to push a point of view instead of arguing his point in a logical way. Why should I accept anyone's opinion? There are so many opinions in this world.

 

[Vinayaka]

I have never heard him say that he is infallible.
The teachings sound true and consistent enough but I would never accept anything that sounds illogical or is given just on the basis of authority.
In fact I would immediately distrust a teacher that uses mere authority to push a point of view instead of arguing his point in a logical way.

Yes, I agree. That's generally the dharmic way. 'Strong suggestion' would be how I would put it. I listen and 'obey' my Gurus in that way as well. But it's not some kind of blind obedience. Dharmic teachers expect you to figure most things out for yourself anyway. In my tradition it's always a living teacher, so if there is any confusion, we can just go back and ask for clarification. Can you imagine if Christ was alive, (Just a 'suppose' as I actually don't believe in prophets period) and people had the opportunity to actually go and ask him personally about the proper course of action. He'd have quite the lineup at his door.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

In fact I would immediately distrust a teacher that uses mere authority to push a point of view instead of arguing his point in a logical way. Why should I accept anyone's opinion? There are so many opinions in this world.

Thats the way, well done. The writings of Baha'u'llah support those thoughts and it is for each of us to search out those answers.

This thread is not about that topic.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

I wanted to briefly mention the gospels contain allegorical narratives that convey profound spiritual meanings. Two obvious examples are the resurrection and the casting out of demons or evils spirits. Clearly, from a Baha'i perspective, do they invalidate the Bible or make it less authentic? Some would argue yes, others no. I'm clearly in the "No" camp. The resurrection is an essential aspect of Christianity, Islam and the Baha'i Faith. We need to look no further the what Baha'u'llah has said in the Kitab-i-Iqan. In Islam it tied in with ends times eschatology.

Angels, demons and Satan are all part of Islam and even the Baha'i writings. Baha'i take demons and Satan metaphorically and so do many Christians. Many don't of course and take it literally along with the resurrection narrative. OTOH I don't see how God could have taught about these concepts had they not been woven into the story about the life and Teachings of Jesus. Our role as Baha'is is to demonstrate using the Bible itself and persuasive argument, the true significance of these concepts. That is exactly what Abdu'l-Baha did. He never denigrated the bible or said anything negative about it. To the contrary;

"The Bible and the Gospels are most honored in the estimation of all Baha'is. One of the spiritual utterances of His Holiness Christ in his Sermon on the Mount is preferable to me to all the writings of the philosophers. It is the religious duty of every Baha'i to read and comprehend the meanings of the Old and New Testament."
(Abdu'l-Baha, Star of the West, Vol. 14, p. 55)

THIS book is the Holy Book of God, of celestial Inspiration. It is the Bible of Salvation, the Noble Gospel. It is the mystery of the Kingdom and its light. It is the Divine Bounty, the sign of the guidance of God.
Bahá'í Reference Library - ‘Abdu’l-Bahá in London, Pages 17-18

"...all the Prophets of Israel were centers of inspiration; Christ also was a receiver of inspiration, but what a difference between the inspiration of the Word of God and the revelations of Isaiah, Jeremiah and Elijah!"
'Abdu'l-Bahá, Some Answered Questions

Furthermore, it is significant and convincing that when Muhammad proclaimed His work and mission, His first objection to His own followers was, “Why have you not believed on Jesus Christ? Why have you not accepted the Gospel? Why have you not believed in Moses? Why have you not followed the precepts of the Old Testament? Why have you not understood the prophets of Israel? Why have you not believed in the disciples of Christ? The first duty incumbent upon ye, O Arabians, is to accept and believe in these. You must consider Moses as a Prophet. You must accept Jesus Christ as the Word of God. You must know the Old and the New Testaments as the Word of God. You must believe in Jesus Christ as the product of the Holy Spirit.”
Bahá'í Reference Library - The Promulgation of Universal Peace, Pages 197-203




I found a couple more passages from the Universal House of Justice that are relevant to our discussion.

In studying the Bible Bahá'ís must bear two principles in mind. The first is that many passages in Sacred Scriptures are intended to be taken metaphorically, not literally, and some of the paradoxes and apparent contradictions which appear are intended to indicate this. The second is the fact that the text of the early Scriptures, such as the Bible, is not wholly authentic.
(28 May 1984 to an individual believer)

The Bahá'ís believe what is in the Bible to be true in substance. This does not mean that every word recorded in that Book is to be taken literally and treated as the authentic saying of a Prophet. A striking example is given in the account of the sacrifice which Abraham was called upon to make. The Guardian of the Faith confirms that the record in the Qur'an and the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, namely that it was Ishmael, and not Isaac as stated in the Old Testament, whom Abraham was to sacrifice, is to be upheld. In one of His Tablets 'Abdu'l-Bahá refers to this discrepancy, and explains that, from a spiritual point of view, it is irrelevant which son was involved. The essential part of the story is that Abraham was willing to obey God's command to sacrifice His son. Thus, although the account in the Torah is inaccurate in detail, it is true in substance....
...The Bahá'ís believe that God's Revelation is under His care and protection and that the essence, or essential elements, of what His Manifestations intended to convey has been recorded and preserved in Their Holy Books. However, as the sayings of the ancient Prophets were written down some time later, we cannot categorically state, as we do in the case of the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, that the words and phrases attributed to Them are Their exact words
(9 August 1984 to an individual believer)



I agree.

Other than coming back to life being something that to us seems impossible, where in the gospel narratives does it go from reporting about what Jesus said and did to something "allegorical"? Same thing with casting out demons. It's all reported as things that Jesus did while going about his day. All believing these things to be "allegorical" accomplishes is that Baha'i can negate any event in the gospels they don't believe as true but still act as if they believe the gospels are true.

So how did the "allegorical" resurrection come about? The gospel writers all made it up? It was an oral tradition that became part of the gospel narrative? What? And, if you think that the disciples took and hid the body and then said that Jesus had risen, isn't that still a lie? And then, in the gospel narratives it says how guards were placed at the tomb so the body couldn't be stolen?

So, since his body was stolen, then this is probably another lie to pretend that stealing the body couldn't have happened. Then, Mary and all the apostles supposedly saw Jesus and talked to him. More lies? Then, they witnessed him ascend into the clouds? More lies. Or, all this chapter after chapter, verse after verse about what happened to Jesus after he was crucified, is all "allegorical"? So then we don't know what happened to Jesus after he died. All we know is the gospels say he resurrected, but he didn't? Early Christians and Christians today believe he did, but they are taking the gospels too literal... and are too spiritually blind to see that it was all meant to be "allegorical"? Like I said, all it accomplishes is that Baha'is can say they believe in the gospels... without believing in what the gospels say.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Other than coming back to life being something that to us seems impossible, where in the gospel narratives does it go from reporting about

I would offer think about it this way. The Gospels are a record of what Christ offered, but passed on in stories before being recorded.

Thus try it this way, read this Tablet by Bahau'llah;

Tablet of the Bell (Tablet for the Feast of Ridvan)

Imagine you now memorise that Tablet and lets say record it 100 years later. We can see in this modern age it was not a literal story, but what if we now took that story at literal value?

Christ would have been speaking the same language and there are not many people that can unravel the unlimited spiritual mysteries these passages contain.

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

So what your answer boils down to is: 'we have to trust the opinions of the main Bahai authorities'?
On what basis do you trust their opinion(s)?

How do we know anything to be true? A Baha’i is someone who recognises Bahá’u’lláh to be the Manifestation of God for this day. Part of the deal is recognition of the Bab, Abdul-Bahá and Shoghi Effendi as we as the Universal House of Justice. That’s the deal with being a Baha’i. For each one of us its a personal journey as to how we came to that belief, just as you have come to recognise your preceptor.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Other than coming back to life being something that to us seems impossible, where in the gospel narratives does it go from reporting about what Jesus said and did to something "allegorical"? Same thing with casting out demons. It's all reported as things that Jesus did while going about his day. All believing these things to be "allegorical" accomplishes is that Baha'i can negate any event in the gospels they don't believe as true but still act as if they believe the gospels are true.

It’s a compelling and soul stirring narrative. It’s on a par with the creation myth, Noah’s flood story and Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden. We all have the capacity to consider the stories ourselves. Believeing its all literal defeats the purpose.

So how did the "allegorical" resurrection come about? The gospel writers all made it up? It was an oral tradition that became part of the gospel narrative? What? And, if you think that the disciples took and hid the body and then said that Jesus had risen, isn't that still a lie? And then, in the gospel narratives it says how guards were placed at the tomb so the body couldn't be stolen?

When did God ever insist we take all this literally? He never did. He asks us to think for ourselves and not be blind followers of our ancestors. That’s the whole point of the Gospels. A new dawn has come has it not? The truth shall set you free (John 8:32). Seek and Ye shall find (Matthew 7:7).

So, since his body was stolen, then this is probably another lie to pretend that stealing the body couldn't have happened. Then, Mary and all the apostles supposedly saw Jesus and talked to him. More lies? Then, they witnessed him ascend into the clouds? More lies. Or, all this chapter after chapter, verse after verse about what happened to Jesus after he was crucified, is all "allegorical"? So then we don't know what happened to Jesus after he died. All we know is the gospels say he resurrected, but he didn't? Early Christians and Christians today believe he did, but they are taking the gospels too literal... and are too spiritually blind to see that it was all meant to be "allegorical"? Like I said, all it accomplishes is that Baha'is can say they believe in the gospels... without believing in what the gospels say.

Believing in the Gospels and believing they are literally true are two different things.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Abrogate: If someone in a position of authority abrogates something such as a law, agreement, or practice, they put an end to it. Abrogate definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary

Its always good to have a dictionary on hand.

So Baha’u’llah, who was in a position of Authority vouchsafed onto Him by God, put an end to all the previous religious Dispensations.

Shoghi Effendi made it perfectly clear:

“In conclusion of this theme, I feel, it should be stated that the Revelation identified with Bahá’u’lláh abrogates unconditionally all the Dispensations gone before it, upholds uncompromisingly the eternal verities they enshrine, recognizes firmly and absolutely the Divine origin of their Authors, preserves inviolate the sanctity of their authentic Scriptures, disclaims any intention of lowering the status of their Founders or of abating the spiritual ideals they inculcate, clarifies and correlates their functions, reaffirms their common, their unchangeable and fundamental purpose, reconciles their seemingly divergent claims and doctrines, readily and gratefully recognizes their respective contributions to the gradual unfoldment of one Divine Revelation, unhesitatingly acknowledges itself to be but one link in the chain of continually progressive Revelations, supplements their teachings with such laws and ordinances as conform to the imperative needs, and are dictated by the growing receptivity, of a fast evolving and constantly changing society, and proclaims its readiness and ability to fuse and incorporate the contending sects and factions into which they have fallen into a universal Fellowship, functioning within the framework, and in accordance with the precepts, of a divinely conceived, a world-unifying, a world-redeeming Order.” God Passes By, p. 100

It may be clear to you, buts its not entirely clear to me.

Shoghi Effendi appears to say the exact opposite;

Let no one, however, mistake my purpose. The Revelation, of which Bahá’u’lláh is the source and center, abrogates none of the religions that have preceded it, nor does it attempt, in the slightest degree, to distort their features or to belittle their value. It disclaims any intention of dwarfing any of the Prophets of the past, or of whittling down the eternal verity of their teachings. It can, in no wise, conflict with the spirit that animates their claims, nor does it seek to undermine the basis of any man’s allegiance to their cause. Its declared, its primary purpose is to enable every adherent of these Faiths to obtain a fuller understanding of the religion with which he stands identified, and to acquire a clearer apprehension of its purpose. It is neither eclectic in the presentation of its truths, nor arrogant in the affirmation of its claims. Its teachings revolve around the fundamental principle that religious truth is not absolute but relative, that Divine Revelation is progressive, not final. Unequivocally and without the least reservation it proclaims all established religions to be divine in origin, identical in their aims, complementary in their functions, continuous in their purpose, indispensable in their value to mankind.

Bahá'í Reference Library - The World Order of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 57-60

So Baha'u'llah abrogates dispensations, but not religions....

Do you still feel the same clarity?

 

[Dawnofhope]

The best way to communicate it is openly and honestly, explaining it like I just did. If they do not have the capacity to hear it that is because they are so attached to their religion (wrapt in the dense veils of your selfish desires), and there is nothing anyone can do about that. People DO have the capacity to recognize Baha’u’llah though, and they are called to account for their failure:

“Suffer not yourselves to be wrapt in the dense veils of your selfish desires, inasmuch as I have perfected in every one of you My creation, so that the excellence of My handiwork may be fully revealed unto men. It follows, therefore, that every man hath been, and will continue to be, able of himself to appreciate the Beauty of God, the Glorified. Had he not been endowed with such a capacity, how could he be called to account for his failure? If, in the Day when all the peoples of the earth will be gathered together, any man should, whilst standing in the presence of God, be asked: “Wherefore hast thou disbelieved in My Beauty and turned away from My Self,” and if such a man should reply and say: “Inasmuch as all men have erred, and none hath been found willing to turn his face to the Truth, I, too, following their example, have grievously failed to recognize the Beauty of the Eternal,” such a plea will, assuredly, be rejected. For the faith of no man can be conditioned by any one except himself.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 143

OK. So Baha'u'llah tells us we all have the capacity to recognise God and His Messengers. Being selfish and following in the footsteps on one's ancestors are two reasons identified as man failing in his duty to recognise the Manifestation of God. Further we are accountable to God for tat failure.

Kinda reminds me of;

The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Day Spring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof, hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent glory, to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the other. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the Source of Divine inspiration.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 330-333

So if our duties are to not only recognise the Manifestation of God for this day but to observe every ordinance....are there any ordinances about teaching the Faith to others?

If any man were to arise to defend, in his writings, the Cause of God against its assailants, such a man, however inconsiderable his share, shall be so honored in the world to come that the Concourse on high would envy his glory. No pen can depict the loftiness of his station, neither can any tongue describe its splendor. For whosoever standeth firm and steadfast in this holy, this glorious, and exalted Revelation, such power shall be given him as to enable him to face and withstand all that is in heaven and on earth. Of this God is Himself a witness.
(Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 330)

Teaching

I don't know if this counts as an ordinance but it appears Baha'u'llah strongly encourages us to arise and defend the cause of God against assailants.

That's an interesting way of looking at it, because my inclination on this forum is to avoid any direct teaching. Instead I am here to learn more about religion. However, something strange happens with some threads. Every now and then someone comes along and opposes the Cause of God. One of the participants on this thread was so affected by the conversation here that he decided to start a thread arguing Baha'u'llah was a false prophet.

Is Baha'u'llah true or false Prophet?

For me that was exciting because I then get to defend the Cause of God. I can't imagine I'll come anywhere near the exalted state Baha'u'llah is talking about though....besides it would be selfish of me to think that way.

So back to teaching.....and what Baha'u'llah says;

If they arise to teach My Cause, they must let the breath of Him Who is the Unconstrained, stir them and must spread it abroad on the earth with high resolve, with minds that are wholly centered in Him, and with hearts that are completely detached from and independent of all things, and with souls that are sanctified from the world and its vanities. It behoveth them to choose as the best provision for their journey reliance upon God, and to clothe themselves with the love of their Lord, the Most Exalted, the All-Glorious. If they do so, their words shall influence their hearers.
(Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 200)

If we are teaching Baha'u'llah is saying we should have our minds wholly centred on Him, be completely detached and independant of all things and our souls are sanctified from the world and its vanities. Well that's a pretty big ask. I doubt if too many of us could claim to reach that exalted state and perhaps part of that state would be a state of completely forgetting self.

What I was really wanting to consider was our attitude towards those we endeavour to teach and the humility required.

In accordance with the divine teachings in this glorious dispensation we should not belittle anyone and call him ignorant, saying: ‘You know not, but I know‘. Rather, we should look upon others with respect, and when attempting to explain and demonstrate, we should speak as if we are investigating the truth, saying: ‘Here these things are before us. Let us investigate to determine where and in what form the truth can be found.’ The teacher should not consider himself as learned and others ignorant. Such a thought breedeth pride, and pride is not conducive to influence. The teacher should not see in himself any superiority; he should speak with the utmost kindliness, lowliness and humility, for such speech exerteth influence and educateth the souls.
(‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Selections from the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 30)

Further Baha'u'llah tells us to never contend or dispute with any soul. I guess we need to express wisdom and understanding in what we say. I wonder what the phrase conquer with the sword of inner meaning and explanation means? I'm sure I've crossed a few lines more times than I care to think.

It followeth, therefore, that rendering assistance unto God, in this day, doth not and shall never consist in contending or disputing with any soul; nay rather, what is preferable in the sight of God is that the cities of men’s hearts, which are ruled by the hosts of self and passion, should be subdued by the sword of utterance, of wisdom and of understanding. Thus, whoso seeketh to assist God must, before all else, conquer, with the sword of inner meaning and explanation, the city of his own heart and guard it from the remembrance of all save God, and only then set out to subdue the cities of the hearts of others.
(Bahá’u’lláh, The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 109-110)

Anyway, theres alot more quotes on teaching here...

Teaching

I'm rambling now....

 

[Trailblazer]

To study the Bible is certainly not a commandment or law like obligatory prayer or fasting. However its much more than being something that would be nice to do. As Baha'is we are asked to develop a profound understanding of the Baha'i Revelation and world history. As the historic context from which the Baha'i faith has emerged it would seem impossible to properly understand Baha'u'llah's revelation with both reference to Islam and Christianity.

The Guardian feels that a sound knowledge of history, including religious history, and also of social and economic subjects, is of great help in teaching the Cause to intelligent people; as to what subjects within the Faith you should concentrate on he feels that the young Bahá’ís should gain a mastery of such books as the “Gleanings”, “The Dawn-Breakers”, “God Passes By”, the “Íqán”, “Some Answered Questions” and the more important Tablets. All aspects of the Faith should be deeply studied—and … they need to know more about the Administration.
(4 May 1946 on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer)

Bahá'í Reference Library - A Compilation on Scholarship, Page 27

Of course it is helpful in teaching if we have a sound knowledge of history, including religious history, and also of social and economic subjects, but if we only have so much time it is more important to know the Baha’i Writings. I have not even read much of God Passes By and I have not read the Dawn-Breakers, and I do not know as much as I should about the Administration. He said “a mastery.”

"Books such as the Iqán, Some Answered Questions and The Dawn-Breakers should be mastered by every Bahá'í. The first two books will reveal the significance of this divine revelation as well as the unity of all the Prophets of old."

Some Answered Questions - Bahai9

I know the Iqan and Some Answered Questions pretty well, but I should read the Dawn-Breakers, unless you think it is more important for me to read Christian history.

As you now some answered question has one of its five parts dedicated to Christian topics and that included 20 out of the 84 chapters.

The importance of the study of both Christianity and Islam is often emphasised.

“If for example a spiritually learned Muslim is conducting a debate with a Christian and he knows nothing of the glorious melodies of the Gospel, he will, no matter how much he imparts of the Qur’án and its truths, be unable to convince the Christian, and his words will fall on deaf ears. Should, however, the Christian observe that the Muslim is better versed in the fundamentals of Christianity than the Christian priests themselves, and understands the purport of the Scriptures even better than they, he will gladly accept the Muslim’s arguments, and he would indeed have no other recourse.”
(‘Abdu’l-Bahá, The Secret of Divine Civilization, p. 36)

"The truth is that Western historians have for many centuries distorted the facts to suit their religious and ancestral prejudices. The Baha'is should try to study history anew, and to base all their investigations first and foremost on the written Scriptures of Islam and Christianity."
(On behalf of Shoghi Effendi, quoted in Lights of Guidance, p. 497)

"Although," Abdu'l-Baha, in the Tablets of the Divine Plan, has written, "in most of the states and cities of the United States, praise be to God, His fragrances are diffused, and souls unnumbered are turning their faces and advancing toward the Kingdom of God, yet in some of the states the Standard of Unity is not yet upraised as it should be, nor are the mysteries of the Holy Books, such as the Bible, the Gospel, and the Qur'an, unraveled. Through the concerted efforts of all the friends the Standard of Unity must needs be unfurled in those states, and the Divine teachings promoted, so that these states may also receive their portion of the heavenly bestowals and a share of the Most Great Guidance."
(Shoghi Effendi, The Advent of Divine Justice, pp. 57-58)

Bible to be studied - Bahai9

Clearly the study of Islam is even more strongly encouraged.

The mission of the American Bahá'ís is, no doubt to eventually establish the truth of Islam in the West.'
- Shoghi Effendi, Lights of Guidance, #1665.

On the importance of the study of Islam to Bahá'ís, the Guardian, Shoghi Effendi, said that for 'a proper and sound understanding of the Cause' its study was 'absolutely indispensable.'
- Lights of Guidance, #1903.

Islam and the Bahá'í Faith

I think a much better use of my limited time would be to learn more about Islam.

Being on this forum as really provided a great impetus to learn more. I've been a Baha'i for nearly 30 years and I feel I know so little.

It seems to me you already know a lot about Christianity.

I have learned most of what I know about Christianity by being on various forums. I feel that learning from others while they learn from me accomplishes more than if I just studied their scriptures alone.

 

[Trailblazer]

Having a good memory helps. I think its called oral traditions.

Oral gospel traditions - Wikipedia

Nobody has a memory that good, nobody. We all know that when stories that are passed down through oral tradition some of the original meaning is lost. However, as the UHJ said,the essence, or essential elements, of what these two Manifestations of God intended to convey has been recorded and preserved in these two Books.

The art of coming up with a plausible resolution to apparently contradictory verses requires more than a dictionary. It applies close analysis of the text.

With all due respect, I have more important things to do with my time than trying to reconcile contradictory Bible verses.

The key words are 'not wholly authentic'. That's very different from 'not authentic'.

Authenticity does not relate to whether God or His Manifestations wrote the Torah or Gospels. If we take that line of reasoning then the Quran isn't authentic either because Muhammad didn't write it. He was illiterate. So it must mean something else....like what the Universal House of Justice explains it to mean.

It means we know who wrote it. Do we know who wrote the Qur’an? I think we know more of the authors of the Qur’an than authors of the Bible. Otherwise, Shoghi Effendi would not have said:

...The Bible is not wholly authentic, and in this respect is not to be compared with the Qur'an, and should be wholly subordinated to the authentic writings of Bahá'u'lláh
. (28 July 1936 to a National Spiritual Assembly)

You ask for elucidation of the statement made on behalf of the Guardian in this letter of 11 February 1944, “When ‘Abdu’l-Bahá states we believe what is in the Bible, He means in substance. Not that we believe every word of it to be taken literally or that every word is the authentic saying of the Prophet.” Is it not clear that what Shoghi Effendi means here is that we cannot categorically state, as we do in the case of the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, that the words and phrases attributed to Moses and Christ in the Old and New Testaments are Their exact words, but that, in view of the general principle enunciated by Bahá’u’lláh in the “Kitáb-i-Iqán” that God’s Revelation is under His care and protection, we can be confident that the essence, or essential elements, of what these two Manifestations of God intended to convey has been recorded and preserved in these two Books.
(Universal House of Justice, 1987 Sept 14, Resurrection of Christ)

I think we should give the Universal House of Justice the last word on this, don't you?

I am fine with that and I have no problem with what the UHJ said: that the essence, or essential elements, of what these two Manifestations of God intended to convey has been recorded and preserved in these two Books.

However, as they said:we cannot categorically state, as we do in the case of the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, that the words and phrases attributed to Moses and Christ in the Old and New Testaments are Their exact words.

 

[Trailblazer]

I wanted to briefly mention the gospels contain allegorical narratives that convey profound spiritual meanings. Two obvious examples are the resurrection and the casting out of demons or evils spirits. Clearly, from a Baha'i perspective, do they invalidate the Bible or make it less authentic? Some would argue yes, others no. I'm clearly in the "No" camp. The resurrection is an essential aspect of Christianity, Islam and the Baha'i Faith. We need to look no further the what Baha'u'llah has said in the Kitab-i-Iqan. In Islam it tied in with ends times eschatology.

Angels, demons and Satan are all part of Islam and even the Baha'i writings. Baha'i take demons and Satan metaphorically and so do many Christians. Many don't of course and take it literally along with the resurrection narrative. OTOH I don't see how God could have taught about these concepts had they not been woven into the story about the life and Teachings of Jesus. Our role as Baha'is is to demonstrate using the Bible itself and persuasive argument, the true significance of these concepts. That is exactly what Abdu'l-Baha did. He never denigrated the bible or said anything negative about it. To the contrary;

"The Bible and the Gospels are most honored in the estimation of all Baha'is. One of the spiritual utterances of His Holiness Christ in his Sermon on the Mount is preferable to me to all the writings of the philosophers. It is the religious duty of every Baha'i to read and comprehend the meanings of the Old and New Testament."
(Abdu'l-Baha, Star of the West, Vol. 14, p. 55)

THIS book is the Holy Book of God, of celestial Inspiration. It is the Bible of Salvation, the Noble Gospel. It is the mystery of the Kingdom and its light. It is the Divine Bounty, the sign of the guidance of God.
Bahá'í Reference Library - ‘Abdu’l-Bahá in London, Pages 17-18

"...all the Prophets of Israel were centers of inspiration; Christ also was a receiver of inspiration, but what a difference between the inspiration of the Word of God and the revelations of Isaiah, Jeremiah and Elijah!"
'Abdu'l-Bahá, Some Answered Questions

Furthermore, it is significant and convincing that when Muhammad proclaimed His work and mission, His first objection to His own followers was, “Why have you not believed on Jesus Christ? Why have you not accepted the Gospel? Why have you not believed in Moses? Why have you not followed the precepts of the Old Testament? Why have you not understood the prophets of Israel? Why have you not believed in the disciples of Christ? The first duty incumbent upon ye, O Arabians, is to accept and believe in these. You must consider Moses as a Prophet. You must accept Jesus Christ as the Word of God. You must know the Old and the New Testaments as the Word of God. You must believe in Jesus Christ as the product of the Holy Spirit.”
Bahá'í Reference Library - The Promulgation of Universal Peace, Pages 197-203




I found a couple more passages from the Universal House of Justice that are relevant to our discussion.

In studying the Bible Bahá'ís must bear two principles in mind. The first is that many passages in Sacred Scriptures are intended to be taken metaphorically, not literally, and some of the paradoxes and apparent contradictions which appear are intended to indicate this. The second is the fact that the text of the early Scriptures, such as the Bible, is not wholly authentic.
(28 May 1984 to an individual believer)

The Bahá'ís believe what is in the Bible to be true in substance. This does not mean that every word recorded in that Book is to be taken literally and treated as the authentic saying of a Prophet. A striking example is given in the account of the sacrifice which Abraham was called upon to make. The Guardian of the Faith confirms that the record in the Qur'an and the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, namely that it was Ishmael, and not Isaac as stated in the Old Testament, whom Abraham was to sacrifice, is to be upheld. In one of His Tablets 'Abdu'l-Bahá refers to this discrepancy, and explains that, from a spiritual point of view, it is irrelevant which son was involved. The essential part of the story is that Abraham was willing to obey God's command to sacrifice His son. Thus, although the account in the Torah is inaccurate in detail, it is true in substance....
...The Bahá'ís believe that God's Revelation is under His care and protection and that the essence, or essential elements, of what His Manifestations intended to convey has been recorded and preserved in Their Holy Books. However, as the sayings of the ancient Prophets were written down some time later, we cannot categorically state, as we do in the case of the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, that the words and phrases attributed to Them are Their exact words
(9 August 1984 to an individual believer)

I agree.

I appreciate all the quotes. Clearly you have made your point about the Bible, including what Abdu’l-Baha and the UHJ have said, so there is no point beating it to death. I guess I just do not see how much value there is in reading scriptures from Dispensations that have been abrogated, especially given I have not even read all the Baha’i Writings. There are only so many hours in and I have already neglected my own personal life and responsibilities because of the Baha’i “duties” and I have paid heavy consequences.

I do not like this idea that Baha’is have to know all of religious history and all the older scriptures, on top of knowing our own Writings, teaching the Faith and being involved in community activities. Then there are the Laws, although those are no problem for me. No wonder there are not more Baha’is.

Also, I do understand how some people on this forum feel about Baha’is “meddling” with their scriptures and acting as if we know them better than they do. This is kind of arrogant. Sure, we have to point out what we believe about the prophecies for the return of Christ and the Messiah, in order to explain why we believe what we do about Baha’u’llah, but we do not need to rip into the Bible with all our Baha’i interpretations. Maybe the idea that we have to get to “know” their scriptures is so we can set them straight, or sneakily try to convert them, but I have no interest in such a dialogue. If I can talk about my religion and they can talk about their religions, fair is fair.

I also have other issues with the Bible, as I think it is the source of much of the non-belief in the world today.

“The vitality of men’s belief in God is dying out in every land; nothing short of His wholesome medicine can ever restore it. The corrosion of ungodliness is eating into the vitals of human society; what else but the Elixir of His potent Revelation can cleanse and revive it? Is it within human power, O Hakím, to effect in the constituent elements of any of the minute and indivisible particles of matter so complete a transformation as to transmute it into purest gold? Perplexing and difficult as this may appear, the still greater task of converting satanic strength into heavenly power is one that We have been empowered to accomplish. The Force capable of such a transformation transcendeth the potency of the Elixir itself. The Word of God, alone, can claim the distinction of being endowed with the capacity required for so great and far-reaching a change.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 200​

It is not only Christianity as it is practiced that has caused non-belief, it is the Bible itself. I think I am in a good position to know this, given that for the last five years I have spent almost all my time posting to atheists and agnostics on forums. Clearly, they have been hurt by the Bible and it is no wonder, given all the atrocious stuff that is written in the Old Testament. I would never want to believe in a God if He did all of that stuff. Moreover, I would never want any child to read any of that, if I had children.

So I guess what I am saying is that I am just going to have to pass on what Abdu’l-Baha said about us learning the Bible. I prefer to listen to Baha’u’llah.

Referring to past Dispensations and their “books” Baha’u’llah wrote:

“Please God thou wilt turn thine eyes towards the Most Great Revelation, and entirely disregard these conflicting tales and traditions.” Gleanings, pp. 174-175​

“........ To this testify the records of the sacred books. Were the details to be mentioned, this epistle would swell into a book. Moreover, it is not Our wish to relate the stories of the days that are past. God is Our witness that what We even now mention is due solely to Our tender affection for thee, that haply the poor of the earth may attain the shores of the sea of wealth, the ignorant be led unto the ocean of divine knowledge, and they that thirst for understanding partake of the Salsabíl of divine wisdom. Otherwise, this servant regardeth the consideration of such records a grave mistake and a grievous transgression.” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, p. 63​

The way I interpret the last sentence of that last quote is that it is a grave mistake and a grievous transgression to even discuss the older sacred books.

 

[Marcion]

Thats the way, well done. The writings of Baha'u'llah support those thoughts and it is for each of us to search out those answers.

This thread is not about that topic.

The Bible does not mention Islam because Islam had not been invented when the authors of the Bible lived. It is that simple. Look how long this topic is and how it is full of lengthy posts with all kinds of lengthy high sounding quotes and none of them come up with this simple answer. Juggling with other people's religions is useless if you are not truly concerned with its spiritual content.