The Catholic Church should be shut down

[Nicholas]

Pope Francis today - better late than never - may he, with God's help sweep clean the Church!

Full text of Pope Francis’s letter about abuse

 

[exchemist]

Pope Francis today - better late than never - may he, with God's help sweep clean the Church!

Full text of Pope Francis’s letter about abuse

Amen. However what we need is urgency in putting into place practical systems at all levels to ensure abuse can't happen and any inappropriate conduct can be swiftly reported for investigation. This has been done in England, presumably by the bishops. I do not know whether it is driven by a diktat from the Vatican that has gone to all countries but I hope it is.

 

[Nakosis]

The Roman Catholic Church should not be permitted to operate any longer. It’s a crime ridden organization masquerading as a religion. The sex abuse cases that continue to pour into the media are horrific and mind blowing. Mind blowing that the cover ups are all through the hierarchy. Any other organization in the secular sphere would be shut down. And people would be arrested. Everyone who was complicit in this, should be arrested. Every priest, every bishop, every cardinal, even the pope if that’s the case. Bill Cosby is 80 years old and stood trial, age should have nothing to do with these dudes being allowed to get away with these crimes.

The government should shut this organization down because it has been committing crimes for decades.

What are your thoughts?

Is this any different than many other human run organizations? I suspect most places you look you will find corruption. We shine the light in one dark corner and see to cockroaches scurry away. You clean up one corner, they surrey to another dark place.

So humanity is infested with the cockroach type of human.

I suppose the problem with the Catholic Church is that it was supposed to be a organization of higher morality. Should we be surprised to find it to be infested with cockroaches? Not really, it is after all a human organization.

Shut it down? Sure, then the cockroaches will scurry to some other dark corner.

My personal experience with the Catholic was always good. There were/are a lot of decent Catholic folks. As a rule of thumb, about 20% of people are cockroaches. So that's about 1 out of 4 people you meet. You're not going to get rid of them, there's a cockroach born every minute. And, most people think they can tell them apart, but usually you can't. It's not too hard for them to fool people into thinking they are decent folks like the rest.

So I think it is up to us, to learn that we can't trust people until we know we can trust them. Unfortunately that means that we can't simply trust the 80% of folks that are decent people just trying to get through life just like everyone else. Simply a bad idea to openly trust everyone you meet even though the majority of them could be trusted.

 

[oldbadger]

It’s not about what I want; it’s about the trends I see in judgements.

For instance, the average payout in this listing works out to about $692,000 per victim, with some judgements going higher than $4 million per victim:

Settlements and bankruptcies in Catholic sex abuse cases - Wikipedia

Have a look at how many judgements on that list weren’t paid out because the diocese went bankrupt. At the very least, as a starting point, I think those judgements should be paid out by the Vatican.

Right..... Let's call it $700,000 per sex abuse victim.
I'm sio glad that we've got that sorted out.

Now...... all we need to do now is see how many institutions, services, bodies, companies, hospices, hospitals, sports facilities, clubs, contractors and government bodies in Canada can survive your ideas.

Can we start with:-
https://www.canadianwomen.org/wp-co...Facts-About-Sexual-Assault-and-Harassment.pdf
Women self-reported 553,000 sexual assaults in 2014, according to Statistics Canada’s General
Social Survey on Victimization.

Now this is just an introduction to the pay-outs, ok?
That's $387100,000,000 American to start finding straight away.
If Canada needs to close then maybe the USA could step in and buy you off, or up?

You do understand that this is only the beginining of the beginning of what all Canadians need to find, ok?

Get saving!

 

[Deidre]

Is this any different than many other human run organizations? I suspect most places you look you will find corruption. We shine the light in one dark corner and see to cockroaches scurry away. You clean up one corner, they surrey to another dark place.

So humanity is infested with the cockroach type of human.

I suppose the problem with the Catholic Church is that it was supposed to be a organization of higher morality. Should we be surprised to find it to be infested with cockroaches? Not really, it is after all a human organization.

Shut it down? Sure, then the cockroaches will scurry to some other dark corner.

My personal experience with the Catholic was always good. There were/are a lot of decent Catholic folks. As a rule of thumb, about 20% of people are cockroaches. So that's about 1 out of 4 people you meet. You're not going to get rid of them, there's a cockroach born every minute. And, most people think they can tell them apart, but usually you can't. It's not too hard for them to fool people into thinking they are decent folks like the rest.

So I think it is up to us, to learn that we can't trust people until we know we can trust them. Unfortunately that means that we can't simply trust the 80% of folks that are decent people just trying to get through life just like everyone else. Simply a bad idea to openly trust everyone you meet even though the majority of them could be trusted.

These are valid points. Something Pope Francis said today in a message to Catholics and the general public is that Catholics need to step up and tell proper authorities and not be afraid. The thing is, many parents did throughout the decades ...and the priests were shifted around to other parishes.

I think that the government needs to step in and put some watchful eyes on religious organizations since they allow kids to participate in so many groups run by them etc. There needs to be an objective third party watching over religious organizations at this point.

But the RCC’s numbers have dropped significantly over the past ten years so they are reaping what they have sown.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Right..... Let's call it $700,000 per sex abuse victim.
I'm sio glad that we've got that sorted out.

Now...... all we need to do now is see how many institutions, services, bodies, companies, hospices, hospitals, sports facilities, clubs, contractors and government bodies in Canada can survive your ideas.

Can we start with:-
https://www.canadianwomen.org/wp-co...Facts-About-Sexual-Assault-and-Harassment.pdf
Women self-reported 553,000 sexual assaults in 2014, according to Statistics Canada’s General
Social Survey on Victimization.

Now this is just an introduction to the pay-outs, ok?
That's $387100,000,000 American to start finding straight away.
If Canada needs to close then maybe the USA could step in and buy you off, or up?

You do understand that this is only the beginining of the beginning of what all Canadians need to find, ok?

Get saving!

I have no idea what point you think you're making.

 

[oldbadger]

I have no idea what point you think you're making.

Not surprised......... but other members might see it all more clearly.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Not surprised......... but other members might see it all more clearly.

It seems like you're saying that the Catholic Church shouldn't be made to pay restitution to its victims because the cost is more than the market will bear, but since you're being less than coherent, that's just my best guess.

 

[1213]

I have to disagree, in some cases it is the religion doing the bad acting

Religion is only system developed by humans, it does what people does, nothing on its own. Could be compared to guns, guns don’t kill, people do, by using guns, and almost anything can be used for evil, but still, it is the user who is guilty, not the system.

 

[Deidre]

Right..... Let's call it $700,000 per sex abuse victim.
I'm sio glad that we've got that sorted out.

Now...... all we need to do now is see how many institutions, services, bodies, companies, hospices, hospitals, sports facilities, clubs, contractors and government bodies in Canada can survive your ideas.

Can we start with:-
https://www.canadianwomen.org/wp-co...Facts-About-Sexual-Assault-and-Harassment.pdf
Women self-reported 553,000 sexual assaults in 2014, according to Statistics Canada’s General
Social Survey on Victimization.

Now this is just an introduction to the pay-outs, ok?
That's $387100,000,000 American to start finding straight away.
If Canada needs to close then maybe the USA could step in and buy you off, or up?

You do understand that this is only the beginining of the beginning of what all Canadians need to find, ok?

Get saving!

So is your solution to do nothing? The RCC should just get away with what they've done because other organizations are in the same situation? If my boss were to sexually assault me, I'd go to the police, and he'd be arrested. That hasn't happened with the RCC. In most secular organizations, secular authorities get involved. The problem with religious organizations like the RCC, is they handled all those sex allegations internally, and paid some victims off in secret, and most of the abusers were not brought to justice, nor were those who were accessories, like the bishops and cardinals.

Have to start somewhere, and the RCC is long overdue to pay their dues with these cases.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

So according to the likes of Cardinal Burke, the child abuse scandal can be blamed squarely on the the Church's second oldest enemy: the gays.

Is this attitude indicative of how the upper echelons feel? Maybe; maybe not. To put things into context: this guy was demoted by the Pope for being too homophobic.

To be honest though, it does seem to me to be an indicator that the Church, as an organisation, isn't actually sorry for what it's done - it's only sorry it got caught.

An update to response #125. Now another Catholic, this time an active bishop (the Bishop of Madison, Wisconsin), is jumping on the 'blame the gays for our problems' bandwagon. This does not seem like the attitude of a man who wants to be part of the solution - he's just attempting to put the blame on an undesirable group.

If this attitude of blaming LGBTs for paedophilia spreads much further among Church hierarchs it'll become pretty apparent that the Church not only hasn't learned to take responsibility for what has happened - it doesn't intend to.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Pope Francis today - better late than never - may he, with God's help sweep clean the Church!

Full text of Pope Francis’s letter about abuse

TL;DR -

1. We got caught out again.
2. 'Thoughts and prayers';
3. I don't plan to change anything.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Is this any different than many other human run organizations? I suspect most places you look you will find corruption. We shine the light in one dark corner and see to cockroaches scurry away. You clean up one corner, they surrey to another dark place.

So humanity is infested with the cockroach type of human.

This reads like an appeal to whataboutery; because a lot of other humans act ****ty we can't target one particular group of humans acting ****tily?

I suppose the problem with the Catholic Church is that it was supposed to be a organization of higher morality. Should we be surprised to find it to be infested with cockroaches? Not really, it is after all a human organization.

Sorry but "it's a human organisation" doesn't cut it as an excuse. The Church has, for thousands of years, fostered environments where it holds strong, often absolute, influence; has claimed supreme moral authority and cultivated an attitude of 'do not question us' from its adherents. It has then abused all these things in the worst way and is now using its measurable privilege to hide from the consequences.

Shut it down? Sure, then the cockroaches will scurry to some other dark corner.

So what; does this mean we should do nothing?

My personal experience with the Catholic was always good. There were/are a lot of decent Catholic folks. As a rule of thumb, about 20% of people are cockroaches. So that's about 1 out of 4 people you meet. You're not going to get rid of them, there's a cockroach born every minute. And, most people think they can tell them apart, but usually you can't. It's not too hard for them to fool people into thinking they are decent folks like the rest.

So I think it is up to us, to learn that we can't trust people until we know we can trust them. Unfortunately that means that we can't simply trust the 80% of folks that are decent people just trying to get through life just like everyone else. Simply a bad idea to openly trust everyone you meet even though the majority of them could be trusted.

This isn't about most Catholics or even most people - this is about an organisation whose high-ranking members have been caught out aiding and abetting the most sinister kinds of crime:- paedophilia, human trafficking and slavery - time and again but which refuses to recognise any authority other than its own and seems contemptuous of secular laws and efforts to apply those laws.

 

[Yerda]

The Roman Catholic Church should not be permitted to operate any longer. It’s a crime ridden organization masquerading as a religion. The sex abuse cases that continue to pour into the media are horrific and mind blowing. Mind blowing that the cover ups are all through the hierarchy. Any other organization in the secular sphere would be shut down. And people would be arrested. Everyone who was complicit in this, should be arrested. Every priest, every bishop, every cardinal, even the pope if that’s the case. Bill Cosby is 80 years old and stood trial, age should have nothing to do with these dudes being allowed to get away with these crimes.

The government should shut this organization down because it has been committing crimes for decades.

What are your thoughts?

I agree that every person who aided the system of child abuse should face justice. I'm not sure that governments can shut the Catholic Church down even if they wanted to (the vatican is a state) and I don't believe that would be a sensible option. Wouldn't it violate the freedom of religious expression that you folks in the USA are so proud of?

 

[Deidre]

I agree that every person who aided the system of child abuse should face justice. I'm not sure that governments can shut the Catholic Church down even if they wanted to (the vatican is a state) and I don't believe that would be a sensible option. Wouldn't it violate the freedom of religious expression that you folks in the USA are so proud of?

I will say again. I've changed my OP stance on shutting it down. (I can hear Gordon Ramsey ''shut it down!!)

Omg, this thread.

Anyways, the government should get involved, not just with the RCC but any large group like them, to monitor and serve as a checks and balances system.

 

[TheBannerofHomuraAkemi]

I think God is always moving, and he wants us to move to see change through. God will not be mocked, so there will be a reckoning sooner or later.

I really hope so.

By the way I love your avatar. It's so pretty.

 

[Yerda]

I will say again. I've changed my OP stance on shutting it down. (I can hear Gordon Ramsey ''shut it down!!)

Omg, this thread.

Anyways, the government should get involved, not just with the RCC but any large group like them, to monitor and serve as a checks and balances system.

Ah, fair enough.

I was too lazy to read the whole thread.

 

[Nakosis]

This reads like an appeal to whataboutery; because a lot of other humans act ****ty we can't target one particular group of humans acting ****tily?

Actually just pointing out the problem doesn't end with the Catholic Church. There are plenty of folks to target. The Church is only a popular target now because of the media focus. While it may make one feel virtuous to jump on the bandwagon, it doesn't really address the larger issue.

Sorry but "it's a human organisation" doesn't cut it as an excuse. The Church has, for thousands of years, fostered environments where it holds strong, often absolute, influence; has claimed supreme moral authority and cultivated an attitude of 'do not question us' from its adherents. It has then abused all these things in the worst way and is now using its measurable privilege to hide from the consequences.

Only the Church? As you say it's been around for thousands of year, only now folks notice something ain't right. What took humanity so long. Folks are waiting for the next pile of corruption to be handed to them on a silver platter so they can again feel virtuous?

So what; does this mean we should do nothing?

It means, stop feeling virtuous because someone else had to rub your face in the corruption before humanity took notice. Humanity failed. We continue to fail.

This isn't about most Catholics or even most people - this is about an organisation whose high-ranking members have been caught out aiding and abetting the most sinister kinds of crime:- paedophilia, human trafficking and slavery - time and again but which refuses to recognise any authority other than its own and seems contemptuous of secular laws and efforts to apply those laws.

Which seems to be the human norm. So maybe you think yourself a decent human being, but how great can you be if someone else has to rub you face in the corruption before you take notice.

 

[Deidre]

I really hope so.

By the way I love your avatar. It's so pretty.

Thanks It's from a site I follow called DeviantArt. Such cool artists.

Ah, fair enough.

I was too lazy to read the whole thread.

lol

It's not an easy subject, and I'm really grateful to see the Pope address the situation today with serious intent to bring change to this.

 

[blü 2]

He’s been Pope for five years. He isn’t exactly new on the scene any more.

He issued an unequivocal letter against child abuse and the culture of denial just in the last 48 hours or so. He's done more than any preceding pope, and I have the impression he actually cares enough to want the problem solved.

And Catholics aren’t exactly evil; they just continue to tithe to a church that uses those tithes to fund some very uncharitable things, like denying compensation to abuse victims.

Although it's not a defense, the RCC is hardly on its own. Its financial responses have differed around the world, but as you imply, they've always seemed to be a last resort, too little too late. (And the response of the churches generally has been tardy and minimalist at best. One counterexample might be the Anglicans in Canada, selling up assets bigtime, as far as I could tell out of conscience.)

Where I live, Catholic hospitals are funded by the government just like the secular ones and provide the same levels of service. The only difference is that the Catholic hospitals are deficient in meeting normal, accepted standards for family planning, fertility, and palliative care.

I was making the point that they were not evil people, and that they were doing good things well. But I agree they don't look so good when they take strict lines on the things you mention. And they still have a major internal problem to solve with their official line on homosexuality as against the larger than average number of homosexual religious, not that the RCC is on its own here.