The rEvolving Doorway

[sayak83]

]I was taught evolution as fact in school 30 years ago. If I present those facts today I would be laughed at. I say this from experience. Evolution will never get to the point of gravity. It will always change because it's made up.



No, again, I speak from experience, atheist dismiss everything theist say as just another interpretation. This is a general, or blanket statement i realize, and there are always exceptions to the rule, but generally, for the most part, that's the way it is.

Actually gravitational theory has changed a lot over the years, and radical revisions in it are under way right now (quantum gravity etc.) Science never stands still..on anything...ever. But apples still fall to the ground and species still evolve and speciate. Those universal unalterable truths will not alter..ever. But the new theories over time will provide a more and more deeper understanding of the mechanisms behind both these universally true facts of the natural world.

 

[Valjean]

]I was taught evolution as fact in school 30 years ago. If I present those facts today I would be laughed at. I say this from experience. Evolution will never get to the point of gravity. It will always change because it's made up.

No. It's not made up, and if you stated that species changed over time who would laugh at you?
There is actual evidence that life has changed over time. This has not changed in 30 years. It hasn't changed in 130 years.

Do you know the difference between evolution and the theory of evolution?

The fact of evolution hasn't changed, and our understanding of the basic mechanisms hasn't changed. Only our understanding of the details has expanded.
What did you say that was laughed at??

No, again, I speak from experience, atheist dismiss everything theist say as just another interpretation. This is a general, or blanket statement i realize, and there are always exceptions to the rule, but generally, for the most part, that's the way it is.

Interpretation of what? What's the way what is?

Science is a study of mechanism. Theology is an assertion of agency and says nothing about mechanism. Theology says who. Science says how.

Theology is faith based -- it's what your parents told you. There is no supporting evidence, it can't be falsified, and it resists testing vehemently.
Science is evidence based, falsifiable, and insists on testing.

 

[Danny1988]

But this is all just folklore. There is no tangible evidence for this biblical ":explanation."
What evidence do you have for all this being "God's word?"

The science is based on observation and evidence. It's reasonable, not faith based.

Science is just a faith based theory, it keeps evolving and changing every single day. It throws yesterdays beliefs in the trash can and embraces new ideas that seem better then they are trashed just as quickly.

There's nothing new in Gods creation, everything is complete and 100% true. There is no changing or evolving going on, evolution is the biggest lie in human history.

There is no tangible evidence for the unbeliever because God has left them in the dark, but the believer know 100% that everything God has said and done is absolutely true. So much so that we are willing to die for our faith because it is so true.

The Bible says that the word of God is foolish to the reprobate, they are sealed for eternal torment in hell. To believe in God is not something a person can choose to do, God has to give faith a s gift and if He doesn't give it to the person then it's impossible to believe in Him.

It's the greatest privilege to receive salvation and eternal paradise after this life is over. The unbeliever has no idea how great it is, there are no word to describe it.

So it's impossible for me to prove it to you because God has blinded you so you will never see it until you die, then you will stand before God and He will cast you into hell to suffer forever.

 

[sayak83]

No. It's not made up, and if you stated that species changed over time who would laugh at you?
There is actual evidence that life has changed over time. This has not changed in 30 years. It hasn't changed in 130 years.

Do you know the difference between evolution and the theory of evolution?

The fact of evolution hasn't changed, and our understanding of the basic mechanisms hasn't changed. Only our understanding of the details has expanded.
What did you say that was laughed at??
Interpretation of what? What's the way what is?

Science is a study of mechanism. Theology is an assertion of agency and says nothing about mechanism. Theology says who. Science says how.

Theology is faith based -- it's what your parents told you. There is no supporting evidence, it can't be falsified, and it resists testing vehemently.
Science is evidence based, falsifiable, and insists on testing.

Not the correct thread, but one can test certain types of theology through personal spiritual practice and exchanging notes with others.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Science is just a faith based theory, it keeps evolving and changing every single day. It throws yesterdays beliefs in the trash can and embraces new ideas that seem better then they are trashed just as quickly.

Some things that weren't "thrown in the trash can":
- The cure for smallpox.
- The cure for polio.
- The cure for malaria.
- Man landing on the moon.
- Cars.
- Planes.
- Computers.
- The internet (that you're currently using).

If I'm to believe your assertion that science is a "faith based theory", then all of these achievements were done purely as an act of faith. My "faith" put a man on the moon. It demonstrably cured countless diseases. The reliability of my faith is such that you are using it right now to access the internet and communicate with me how invalid it is. My faith clearly works, in a very real and tangible way which is directly observable to everyone.

So, I guess, in a battle of faiths, mine clearly beats yours.

 

[sayak83]

Science is just a faith based theory, it keeps evolving and changing every single day. It throws yesterdays beliefs in the trash can and embraces new ideas that seem better then they are trashed just as quickly.

There's nothing new in Gods creation, everything is complete and 100% true. There is no changing or evolving going on, evolution is the biggest lie in human history.

There is no tangible evidence for the unbeliever because God has left them in the dark, but the believer know 100% that everything God has said and done is absolutely true. So much so that we are willing to die for our faith because it is so true.

The Bible says that the word of God is foolish to the reprobate, they are sealed for eternal torment in hell. To believe in God is not something a person can choose to do, God has to give faith a s gift and if He doesn't give it to the person then it's impossible to believe in Him.

It's the greatest privilege to receive salvation and eternal paradise after this life is over. The unbeliever has no idea how great it is, there are no word to describe it.

So it's impossible for me to prove it to you because God has blinded you so you will never see it until you die, then you will stand before God and He will cast you into hell to suffer forever.

 

[Jumi]

Those so called "theists" are actually hypocrites, they're not true believers. True believers don't sit on the fence.

Not all theists are true believers or even want to be. I think it's hypocritical to ignore things because you are taught differently.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Those so called "theists" are actually hypocrites, they're not true believers. True believers don't sit on the fence.

How about you? Ever do work on a Sunday? That one's a COMMANDMENT, for goodness sake. And its higher on the list than "thou shalt not kill!" Or are you one of the likely hundreds of millions who are "on the fence" about that one?

 

[Valjean]

Science is just a faith based theory, it keeps evolving and changing every single day. It throws yesterdays beliefs in the trash can and embraces new ideas that seem better then they are trashed just as quickly.

NO! Science is not faith based. That's why it works. That's why it produces reproducible and predictable results. That's why it changes -- our understanding expands with testing and additional evidence.
I see this conflation of science with religion by the religious all the time. It speaks to a profound misunderstanding of what science is.

There's nothing new in Gods creation, everything is complete and 100% true. There is no changing or evolving going on, evolution is the biggest lie in human history.

There is no tangible evidence for the unbeliever because God has left them in the dark, but the believer know 100% that everything God has said and done is absolutely true. So much so that we are willing to die for our faith because it is so true.

You're preaching. You present no evidence for any of this. It's all emotion based.

You're willing to die because of your emotional investment, not because it's true. People are martyred all the time for widely divergent beliefs, so willingness to die isn't "evidence" of anything.

"The Bible says that the word of God is foolish to the reprobate, they are sealed for eternal torment in hell. To believe in God is not something a person can choose to do, God has to give faith a s gift and if He doesn't give it to the person then it's impossible to believe in Him.

But why is the Bible any more authoritative than the Quran or The Hobbit ? You begin with an unsupported axiom and draw conclusions from that. You've put the cart before the horse. Your argument is a priori.

It's the greatest privilege to receive salvation and eternal paradise after this life is over. The unbeliever has no idea how great it is, there are no word to describe it.

We understand the concept completely, we just don't see any empirical support for it.
And what, exactly, do we need to be saved from?

So it's impossible for me to prove it to you because God has blinded you so you will never see it until you die, then you will stand before God and He will cast you into hell to suffer forever.

No, its not we who are 'blinded'.

Is this thread a Poe? It's hard to believe such benighted opinions are put seriously.

 

[Polymath257]

You don't get it, do you?

No matter what you evolutionist say, no matter how thorough, current and precise your answers are they mean nothing to the unbeliever (of evolution) because the answers will change tomorrow. You're preaching to the choir.

Believers, no matter what you say, no matter how thorough, scholarly, and accurate your answers are they mean nothing to the unbeliever (of the Bible) because they will dismiss it as just another interpretation. You are preaching to the choir. And the choir isn't on speaking terms. They're in disagreement.

It's a distraction. Like two party politics. An illusion. A trap, set by oh, I don't know . . . who could it be? SATAN?

No, science *refines* its ideas. It doesn't completely change them. It gets better and better approximations. The interpretation of individual observations and facts will change over time, but less and less as the science progresses. And that is exactly what we want: as we learn more, we *expect* to refine our ideas and make them more accurate.

And yes, you present the *precise* problem with any sort of religious fanaticism: they will always consider anything contrary to their particular *interpretation* to be false and irrelevant.

]I was taught evolution as fact in school 30 years ago. If I present those facts today I would be laughed at. I say this from experience. Evolution will never get to the point of gravity. It will always change because it's made up.

What basic claim from 'evolution' from 30 years ago do you think would get laughed at? That species change over geological time? That natural selection is one of the primary dirving forces for that change? That amphibians evolved from a certain line of fish? That mammals evolved from a certain line of reptiles? That humans evolved from a certain line of great apes?

Now, our understanding of the evolution of birds has changed greatly. We have learned more about the evolution of certain branches of dinosaurs.

But what *fundamental* claim from 30 years ago would get you laughed at (as opposed to our understanding of a specific case)?

No, again, I speak from experience, atheist dismiss everything theist say as just another interpretation. This is a general, or blanket statement i realize, and there are always exceptions to the rule, but generally, for the most part, that's the way it is.

If you have no actual, physical evidence (which is precisely what science does have), then all you have is interpretation of some texts. If your text doesn't agree with the archeology or the history, you ignore the archeology or history and stick to the text.

That isn't the way to find truth in my experience.

 

[Valjean]

Not the correct thread, but one can test certain types of theology through personal spiritual practice and exchanging notes with others.

How is that testing? That's just emotional "conformation" and seeking agreement.
If spiritual familiarity and agreement from neighbors were legitimate tests, wouldn't there be general religious agreement all over the world?

 

[Father Heathen]

Those so called "theists" are actually hypocrites, they're not true believers. True believers don't sit on the fence.

There is no "fence". The concept of god and the theory of evolution are not mutually exclusive. The only thing evolution conflicts with is literal interpretations of creation myths, which are not prerequisite for belief in a god.

 

[Polymath257]

Science is just a faith based theory, it keeps evolving and changing every single day. It throws yesterdays beliefs in the trash can and embraces new ideas that seem better then they are trashed just as quickly.

No, it throws yesterday's *hypotheses* into the trash can. Hypotheses are guesses that need to be subjected to testing. If they don't pass the tests, they are discarded.

But those ideas that have passed multiple independent tests will almost certainly *not* simply be thrown away. They may be *refined* in the face of new evidence, but the mere fact that they were verified by those tests will guarantee the idea won't completely die.

There are many examples of this in the history of science. Newtonian Mechanics is the most obvious one. It is still used to design buildings and space probes. But we know it is wrong *in detail*. It isn't discarded, but its use is limited to those cases where it works well enough.

There's nothing new in Gods creation, everything is complete and 100% true. There is no changing or evolving going on, evolution is the biggest lie in human history.

Nope. It explains how biological species change over time. This change has actually been observed for smaller changes and we have other evidence for larger changes.

There is no tangible evidence for the unbeliever because God has left them in the dark, but the believer know 100% that everything God has said and done is absolutely true. So much so that we are willing to die for our faith because it is so true.

There is no evidence for the believer because they reject all observational evidence in favor of their preferred interpretation of an ancient book. They believe based on 'faith' instead of evidence.

The Bible says that the word of God is foolish to the reprobate, they are sealed for eternal torment in hell. To believe in God is not something a person can choose to do, God has to give faith a s gift and if He doesn't give it to the person then it's impossible to believe in Him.

Maybe it seems foolish to a non-believer because it *is* foolish in many respects. Maybe it is the believer that is the actual foolish one for believing in the text.

It's the greatest privilege to receive salvation and eternal paradise after this life is over. The unbeliever has no idea how great it is, there are no word to describe it.

It is greater to know the truth. And the way to do that is to test every idea and discard those that don't work.

So it's impossible for me to prove it to you because God has blinded you so you will never see it until you die, then you will stand before God and He will cast you into hell to suffer forever.

It is impossible to prove evolution to you because you are blinded by faith and will never look at the evidence.

The threats based on your myth (of hell, etc) are noted. They don't scare me because I understand them to be myth.

 

[ChristineM]

You don't get it, do you?

No matter what you evolutionist say, no matter how thorough, current and precise your answers are they mean nothing to the unbeliever (of evolution) because the answers will change tomorrow. You're preaching to the choir.

Believers, no matter what you say, no matter how thorough, scholarly, and accurate your answers are they mean nothing to the unbeliever (of the Bible) because they will dismiss it as just another interpretation. You are preaching to the choir. And the choir isn't on speaking terms. They're in disagreement.

It's a distraction. Like two party politics. An illusion. A trap, set by oh, I don't know . . . who could it be? SATAN?

Another post lacking in comprihension. Do you realise that its ok to admit you dont know?

Evolution has remained evolution for a few billion years. New knowledge of it's process is occasionally discovered, but if something undiscovered actually turns up tomorrow you could re-brand yourself as a prophet.

As to interpretation of the bible, provide evidence for a verse and that verse is no longer interpretation. Without evidence, its down to the readers imagination.

But i wouldn't expect you to understand.

 

[Father Heathen]

We Christians believe that evolution is a lie straight from the pits of hell, it's purely Satanic. It contradicts Gods Word as we have it in the book of Genesis.

God created the world in six day and rested on the seventh day, every Christian believes every single word in the Holy Bible. If a person claims to be Christian and doesn't believe every Word, then that exposes them as false professors.

It's too bad for you that your brand of Christianity doesn't have a monopoly on god.

 

[shunyadragon]

You don't get it, do you?

No matter what you evolutionist say, no matter how thorough, current and precise your answers are they mean nothing to the unbeliever (of evolution) because the answers will change tomorrow. You're preaching to the choir.

Believers, no matter what you say, no matter how thorough, scholarly, and accurate your answers are they mean nothing to the unbeliever (of the Bible) because they will dismiss it as just another interpretation. You are preaching to the choir. And the choir isn't on speaking terms. They're in disagreement.

It's a distraction. Like two party politics. An illusion. A trap, set by oh, I don't know . . . who could it be? SATAN?

Need clarification on what you mean by 'answers may change tomorrow? Is change in scientific knowledge over time in some way bad?

The basic foundation of evolution has not changed since Charles Darwin. The only thing that has changed is the amount of increasing evidence supporting evidence evolution, and correcting older conclusions based on new evidence. This is the process of all the sciences.

 

[Valjean]

I daresay if Danny or Windsor had been born in Saudi Arabia, they would be defending Islam just as ardently. Their opinions are not based on facts or critical analysis. They're based on what their parents and neighbors told them.

 

[Danny1988]

Some things that weren't "thrown in the trash can":
- The cure for smallpox.
- The cure for polio.
- The cure for malaria.
- Man landing on the moon.
- Cars.
- Planes.
- Computers.
- The internet (that you're currently using).

If I'm to believe your assertion that science is a "faith based theory", then all of these achievements were done purely as an act of faith. My "faith" put a man on the moon. It demonstrably cured countless diseases. The reliability of my faith is such that you are using it right now to access the internet and communicate with me how invalid it is. My faith clearly works, in a very real and tangible way which is directly observable to everyone.

So, I guess, in a battle of faiths, mine clearly beats yours.

Nah, your faith is hopeless, because the world has never been so overwhelmed with cancer and disease which science is hopelessly impotent, when it comes to finding cures.

There are millions of people dying of cancer and diseases, science can't deal with it. Science can't answer any of the basic ABC questions which little children ask, like who am I. were did I come from. why am I here, where am I going.

Science has taken 6000 years to work out the basics of physics, science uses the primitive technique called the process of elimination. They have monkeys in labs working 24/7 performing experiments to work out simple formulas. If they were smart they would be able to work things out much faster.

Science is all about discovering the laws which God placed on His creation, science can't change one single law God ordained and it can't create a single speck of dust, can you see how hopeless they are.

 

[sayak83]

How is that testing? That's just emotional "conformation" and seeking agreement.
If spiritual familiarity and agreement from neighbors were legitimate tests, wouldn't there be general religious agreement all over the world?

The subjectivity makes it difficult. While all conscious experiences are interpreted, the internal experiences are highly constructed upon by the ego, distorting them deeply. But I believe its possible to remove the post hoc constructions and do an actual analysis of the content of the experiences objectively. I think that is what Buddha was trying to teach, though if we try, I think we can improve upon his methods...just as we did for science.

 

[David T]

You don't get it, do you?

No matter what you evolutionist say, no matter how thorough, current and precise your answers are they mean nothing to the unbeliever (of evolution) because the answers will change tomorrow. You're preaching to the choir.

Believers, no matter what you say, no matter how thorough, scholarly, and accurate your answers are they mean nothing to the unbeliever (of the Bible) because they will dismiss it as just another interpretation. You are preaching to the choir. And the choir isn't on speaking terms. They're in disagreement.

It's a distraction. Like two party politics. An illusion. A trap, set by oh, I don't know . . . who could it be? SATAN?

Its Two 5 year olds arguing about sex!!!!