Was Muhammad a Messenger of God?

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

"My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence."

But does brag about splitting up families, causing lots of death, etc. He even assaults people with a whip. Imagine what a few more years would do for his anger issues.

Where do you think it all unravelled?

During the ministry. He's not even dead yet and he's already complaining his apostles aren't listening to him.

Arius emphasised Jesus as the 'Son of God' which is easier to reconcile with Islam than 'Jesus is God'. 'Son of God' is a Messianic title and perhaps similar to Moses being the 'friend of God' and Muhammad being the 'Messenger of God'.

It's easier to reconcile with the entire bible as well.

I don't think there is any evidence to support the story of the Egyptians or Herod's slaughter of the innocents as being anymore than a story. .

But fictional stories can still teach us about values, and it still means someone wrote a story thinking what happened was okay.

Each Faith builds on the lessons learnt from the previous Faiths. That is certainly true for Christianity, Islam and Buddhism.

Exactly.

The answer is given by Quran: the interpretation which is given by Muhammad and 12 Imams is officially Islamic view.

Okay, but why should I care about the 12 imams? If they get the interpretation right, it's not because they are those 12 specific people. It would be more of a matter of being familiar with the material, which anyone can accomplish.

 

[siti]

This was important as the Arabs practiced infanticide. That was Abdu'l-Baha's point afterall.

No it wasn't - his point was to prove that Muhammad was a Messenger of God and a great "Enlightener and Educator" - he failed to prove it. And so have you!

 

[siti]

I could point you out to how the Imams interpreted the verses, but they are in Arabic, so no point.

On the contrary, please do give the references - I can get help with the translation - I have a few Muslim friends and I am only two minutes drive from a Mosque - I have already been there, they'll be happy to help me.

While you're at it, you might want to research this question:

If the 12 Imams taught heliocentrism and my idea...

...of the Imams reading or learning from pagans or greeks has no basis or evidence whatsoever...

why, then, did Abdu'l Baha claim that:

"...the doctors of Islám, when they saw that these verses were contrary to the accepted Ptolemaic system, were obliged to explain them away." http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/SAQ/saq-7.html

Seems AB was as mistaken as I am!

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

So because God doesn't conform to your expectations as to how He should exist you reject that He does exist?

I have no expectations for those things that I do not think exist.

But I am not talking about my expectations, I am talking about how every strongly religious person I've ever known or heard from describes the God they claim to believe in. And then I point out that the belief they just described does not conform to their own experience of their own belief (e.g. the Muslim insh'a'llah or as God wills), and then blame me for pointing it out.

That last example, just for example, suggests that if there are kuffar, then it is because Allah wills it, to which many strident believers respond by trying to kill off what Allah wills.

The same is true for Christians, who claim to believe that if you listen hard enough, God can speak to you. Then again, I ask, what need of "messengers?"

 

[CG Didymus]

But everyone except for one small break off sect of Islam is deluded. You should know that by now, after all this 'debate'. Have at it, Sir. I shan't be joining this time around. (Well I just did I guess. Shucks.)

And it's good to hear from you again. It brings back such fond memories of the great beings thread.

 

[CG Didymus]

Yes it does.

Thank you for your honest and straight forward answers.

 

[CG Didymus]

You just can't help yourself can you? Me too! I stayed out of these for a few months and popped back in a few weeks ago to see if there was anything enlightening going on. There wasn't - but its a bit like those TV soap operas that everyone despises but somehow can't switch off. Strangely and annoyingly addictive.

But I get enlightened by your questions and answers. So thanks for coming back.

 

[Dawnofhope]

OMG, I hope no one is intending a Great Beings reunion thread!

 

[Dawnofhope]

Indeed. But see the second paragraph in post #1.

I think I see your point.

This is the third thread I’ve started on RF in the last one month that considers Islam. The first two looked at comparing the differing theological concepts between Islam and Christianity. They were a little academic but there were plenty of participants who understood the question and were able to provide a thoughtful response. One Christian mentioned the main problem he had with Islam was not the theology but the behaviour of Muhammad compared to the Holiness of Christ. I decided to start a thread to explore the life of Muhammad. Muhammad can evoke some strong emotions for many. I’m a Baha’i, not a Muslim or an Islamic apologist. What I wrote provided some context as well as openness about where I’m coming from. It’s not a “let’s really talk about Baha’u’llah” thread. I want to learn more about Islam and Muhammad. I’m comfortable with what I wrote then and feel the same way now.

 

[Dawnofhope]

No it wasn't - his point was to prove that Muhammad was a Messenger of God and a great "Enlightener and Educator" - he failed to prove it. And so have you!

Abdu’l-Baha was educating His audience about Muhammad. It’s true that his overall intent was to prove that Muhammad was not just a Messenger of God but an enlightened educator as you say. The Persian Baha’is were largely prevented from teaching the Baha’i Faith to the world due to persecution and suppression. That responsibility fell to the American Baha’is who were successful in no small measure due to the wisdom, encouragement and teachings of Abdu’l-Baha. He succeeded though neither his words or mine have convinced you. Then again I wasn’t expecting to convince you or anyone else for that matter. Were you expecting to be convinced? Sorry to disappoint lol

 

[Trailblazer]

Thank you for your honest and straight forward answers.

You're welcome.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I have no expectations for those things that I do not think exist.

But I am not talking about my expectations, I am talking about how every strongly religious person I've ever known or heard from describes the God they claim to believe in. And then I point out that the belief they just described does not conform to their own experience of their own belief (e.g. the Muslim insh'a'llah or as God wills), and then blame me for pointing it out.

That last example, just for example, suggests that if there are kuffar, then it is because Allah wills it, to which many strident believers respond by trying to kill off what Allah wills.

The same is true for Christians, who claim to believe that if you listen hard enough, God can speak to you. Then again, I ask, what need of "messengers?"

No one call fully walk in another's shoes, live their life, and feel their joy, pain and suffering.

It would be as arrogant for you to claim what works for me, as for me to claim what works for you.

Islam is a religion that has worked for many and not worked for others. I'm here to better understand what makes Him just a man, or what makes Him greater than a man.

It doesn't matter to me what religion you are or what religion you are not. Why does it matter so much to you?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

No one call fully walk in another's shoes, live their life, and feel their joy, pain and suffering.

It would be as arrogant for you to claim what works for me, as for me to claim what works for you.

Islam is a religion that has worked for many and not worked for others. I'm here to better understand what makes Him just a man, or what makes Him greater than a man.

It doesn't matter to me what religion you are or what religion you are not. Why does it matter so much to you?

I have always made the implicit assumption that our actions are very much informed by our knowledge and our beliefs. My knowledge of how fire and stove tops work informs my extreme reluctance to get my hand too close to either. My belief that what I have a right to, everyone else has a right to as well, informs how I behave towards others.

Throughout human history, people have acted based on their beliefs. They have helped, based on their beliefs, and they have tortured and killed based on them. They have gone to other people, with different beliefs, and tried to supplant those others' beliefs with their own. And if their beliefs are wrong, the actions based on those beliefs are just as likely to be wrong, too.

You might just consider, after all, that I myself felt the brunt of religious opinion most of my life, as a gay person. It is not, you may perhaps be surprised to learn, exactly a warm feeling to be accused of being depraved and an affront to God simply for an orientation that is utterly beyond your control. (And if you believe that not to be true, you can tell us how you would go about changing yours.)

And mostly, I truly believe that religion must and does in many ways suppress rational thinking. It does this every time that apologists make excuses for what is clearly and undeniably wrong. For one example, you might read William Lane Craig's drivel on why God was so right to order the complete destruction of the Canaanites, including the murder of children and the keeping of virgin females for (who can guess what) other purposes. https://www.reasonablefaith.org/writings/question-answer/slaughter-of-the-canaanites

My favourite quote from that Craig bit, by the way, is this:

"So the problem isn’t that God ended the Canaanites’ lives. The problem is that He commanded the Israeli soldiers to end them. Isn’t that like commanding someone to commit murder? No, it’s not. Rather, since our moral duties are determined by God’s commands, it is commanding someone to do something which, in the absence of a divine command, would have been murder. The act was morally obligatory for the Israeli soldiers in virtue of God’s command, even though, had they undertaken it on their on initiative, it would have been wrong."

Now, do me a favour for just a moment, and think about that quote: who heard God make such commandments? Craig argues that the killing was morally obligatory for Israeli solders who themselves never heard God say a word. Moses SAID God told him things concerning the Exodus. Joshua SAID God ordered the death of the Canaanites, but there is only their word for it. Let me ask you how you think such a thing would stand up in any court on earth today: "I slew my daughter, your honour, because God told me to. I heard it from his own lips myself."

I put it to you in no uncertain terms: Craig's ability to reason is severely, perhaps catastrophically, disabled by religious belief that is clearly WRONG.

 

[CG Didymus]

OMG, I hope no one is intending a Great Beings reunion thread!

What's the difference between this thread and the "Great Beings" thread. The underlying question is the same... is the Baha'i interpretation correct.This thread is trying to link Muhammad into the chain of "manifestations". Once that is done, it is a small step to add Baha'u'llah. But, if Muhammad is rejected as a true messenger from God, then that makes the Baha'i Faith false also.

I know very little of the progression from Muhammad to the specific Shia sect that the Baha'i Faith evolved out of. But, I'm sure there's several problematic areas that are lurking there. Can't wait to get into some of that stuff.

 

[CG Didymus]

Abdu’l-Baha was educating His audience about Muhammad. It’s true that his overall intent was to prove that Muhammad was not just a Messenger of God but an enlightened educator as you say. The Persian Baha’is were largely prevented from teaching the Baha’i Faith to the world due to persecution and suppression. That responsibility fell to the American Baha’is who were successful in no small measure due to the wisdom, encouragement and teachings of Abdu’l-Baha. He succeeded though neither his words or mine have convinced you. Then again I wasn’t expecting to convince you or anyone else for that matter. Were you expecting to be convinced? Sorry to disappoint lol

On the surface, the words of the Baha'i Faith is very convincing... like peace, equality and that all religions are one. It's when the deeper things are explored, then it becomes hard to believe. Our question are words and your answers are words. They gotta make sense and be convincing. If not, we're going to call you on that. But I think you know that.

 

[Vinayaka]

I voted no, not just because Muhammad isn't a messenger of God, but because there are no messengers of God. Why would God need to appoint someone in his stead? Only self-aggrandizing people, mostly all men, have ever made it to that 'lofty' throne, with occasional the help of some deceived and ardent followers who have a psychological need for a messiah. Just way too outside my paradigm.

 

[Vinayaka]

On the surface, the words of the Baha'i Faith is very convincing... like peace, equality and that all religions are one. It's when the deeper things are explored, then it becomes hard to believe. Our question are words and your answers are words. They gotta make sense and be convincing. If not, we're going to call you on that. But I think you know that.

I wonder how our new female Bahai' member does with the gender bias in the UHJ, let alone the Baha'i inheritance laws.

 

[CG Didymus]

I have always made the implicit assumption that our actions are very much informed by our knowledge and our beliefs. My knowledge of how fire and stove tops work informs my extreme reluctance to get my hand too close to either. My belief that what I have a right to, everyone else has a right to as well, informs how I behave towards others.

Throughout human history, people have acted based on their beliefs. They have helped, based on their beliefs, and they have tortured and killed based on them. They have gone to other people, with different beliefs, and tried to supplant those others' beliefs with their own. And if their beliefs are wrong, the actions based on those beliefs are just as likely to be wrong, too.

You might just consider, after all, that I myself felt the brunt of religious opinion most of my life, as a gay person. It is not, you may perhaps be surprised to learn, exactly a warm feeling to be accused of being depraved and an affront to God simply for an orientation that is utterly beyond your control. (And if you believe that not to be true, you can tell us how you would go about changing yours.)

And mostly, I truly believe that religion must and does in many ways suppress rational thinking. It does this every time that apologists make excuses for what is clearly and undeniably wrong. For one example, you might read William Lane Craig's drivel on why God was so right to order the complete destruction of the Canaanites, including the murder of children and the keeping of virgin females for (who can guess what) other purposes. https://www.reasonablefaith.org/writings/question-answer/slaughter-of-the-canaanites

My favourite quote from that Craig bit, by the way, is this:

"So the problem isn’t that God ended the Canaanites’ lives. The problem is that He commanded the Israeli soldiers to end them. Isn’t that like commanding someone to commit murder? No, it’s not. Rather, since our moral duties are determined by God’s commands, it is commanding someone to do something which, in the absence of a divine command, would have been murder. The act was morally obligatory for the Israeli soldiers in virtue of God’s command, even though, had they undertaken it on their on initiative, it would have been wrong."

Now, do me a favour for just a moment, and think about that quote: who heard God make such commandments? Craig argues that the killing was morally obligatory for Israeli solders who themselves never heard God say a word. Moses SAID God told him things concerning the Exodus. Joshua SAID God ordered the death of the Canaanites, but there is only their word for it. Let me ask you how you think such a thing would stand up in any court on earth today: "I slew my daughter, your honour, because God told me to. I heard it from his own lips myself."

I put it to you in no uncertain terms: Craig's ability to reason is severely, perhaps catastrophically, disabled by religious belief that is clearly WRONG.

Awesome post, but it's worse then that... It's like "I slew my daughter because God's prophet told me that God wanted me to do it" And wouldn't we ask, "And you believed him?" And yes, we all know people that do believe and act on what their religious leaders tell them. So what does Muhammad and the Quran say to do to gay people? I know some verses in the Bible say that God wants them killed. Great, maybe we should ask, "And you believe him?"

 

[CG Didymus]

I wonder how our new female Bahai' member does with the gender bias in the UHJ, let alone the Baha'i inheritance laws.

In another thread one Baha'i said that it was a blessing to not have to serve. That way women are free to do other things. I asked how many women serve as secretaries and assistants to those men. And, we're only talking about nine people. Even if all of them were women, that leaves an awful lot of women free to do other things.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I wonder how our new female Bahai' member does with the gender bias in the UHJ, let alone the Baha'i inheritance laws.

It’s a little off topic by why not ask @Trailblazer ? As a self appointed moderator for my own thread you have my permission to digress, not that I really have any control over what others post and ask lol