Can Islamic and Christian Theological Concepts of God be reconciled?

[wizanda]

My point is regardless of the breakdown all three faiths profess in One God, a single deity that is the author of all existence this is the focal point.

So due to Muhammad not having knowledge of the Divine Council, it isn't documented properly in Islam; yet there are early references to it, as we find in the Bible during the Israelite time period (Psalms 82:1).

38:69 I had no knowledge of the Heavenly Beings when they were debating (about the creation of ’Ādam).
37:8 They cannot listen to the higher group (angels) for they are pelted from every side.

There is One source of reality (Allah), and it has used messengers to communicate with man.

42:51 And it is not for any human being that Allah should speak to him except by revelation or from behind a partition or that He sends a messenger to reveal, by His permission, what He wills. Indeed, He is Most High and Wise.

We know in the scriptures there was a deity a single deity that existed.

The Quran uses 'we' when speaking from Allah, which to me is the Oneness of Heaven... There are also numerous Divine Beings all representing the Oneness of the Source of reality.

You're arguing arbitrary terms that really, you using to justify that all three have nothing in common.

They have lots in common; yet we can't reconcile differences until we acknowledge what they say differently, and what is specified by each.

I think what bothers me is when people make opinions and are unfamiliar with the original language and the text but go off what their pastor tells them

As someone who doesn't have a pastor, a teacher or even acknowledging scholars as being automatically factual...

Generally check the language, and have my own ideas based on first hand knowledge to begin...

Which is why I always put 'in my opinion', as have been told off by the forum moderators, that I speak as an authority without scholarly support.

In my opinion.

 

[whirlingmerc]

When Jesus spoke those words it was during the week leading up to His crucifixion. He had just predicted His martrydom to His disciples who were understandably bereft. He was comforting His disciples, who wre all Jews, by reminding them He was the promised Messiah. He was not speaking about other religions such as Hinduism or Buddhism as they were not well known. There is no mention of these religions in the NT anywhere. Islam wasn't to emerge for nearly 600 years.

Unfortunately two thousand years on and Christianity and Islam have history with India. Both have colonised India for considerable lengths of time and their treatment and attitude towards Hindu's has often fallen far short of the ideals within both religions.

But go ahead and tell my Hindu friend how wrong he is and how right you are.

Colonialization may have more to do with politics money power and churchianity than Christianity

 

[nPeace]

Are you saying that Christianity is divided because it did not originate from God?



Agreed.

Religion is divided because it did not originate with God.
Religion is a form of worship.

Worship of God doesn't take forms. There is only one way to worship God- which he outlines.
Jesus said - John 4:24 - God is a spirit. Those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”

It is evident that there are many forms of worship even in "Christianity" today. They are divided - Catholic against Protestant, etc.
"Christianity" is divided by their various doctrines which did not originate with God, through the teachings of Christ, hence their form of worship - religion - did not originate with God. Matthew 15:9

Their worship of me is pointless,
because their teachings are rules made by humans.

It is apparent that they are not united in worship of the true God, hence Jesus' words at Matthew 7
15 “Beware of false prophets...
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the person who does what my Father in heaven wants. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in your name? Didn’t we force out demons and do many miracles by the power and authority of your name?’ 23 Then I will tell them publicly, ‘I’ve never known you. Get away from me, you evil people.’

Evidently the scriptures show that only those united in worship of the true God will enjoy peace, because they are taught by him.
Isaiah 2
2 In the last days the mountain of the Lord’s house
will be established as the highest of the mountains
and raised above the hills.
All the nations will stream to it.
3 Then many people will come and say,
“Let’s go to the mountain of the Lord,
to the house of the God of Jacob.
He will teach us his ways so that we may live by them.”

This scripture, evidently indicates that people must worship God on his terms - that is - They must identify how God wants them to worship, and worship God accordingly. That may call for them to leave their former way of worship, and be united with God's people.
2 Corinthians 6:14-18

 

[whirlingmerc]

This question is mostly for adherents of Abrahamic Faiths though I have left it open for all to answer and put it in the general debate section to enable us to discuss freely and frankly.

I would consider the answer to be yes, no, or maybe

'Yes' if we are prepared to see God as transcendant above man made concepts. I see God is an unknowable essence. His essence can never be understood by man, anymore than the fetus can conceive of life outside the womb. God wants us to know and worship Him, so He reveals Himself through the likes of Christ and Muhammad. Man listens, thinks he's understood, then creates a theology he sincerely believes is founded on the words God has revealed, but in reality his comprehension is veiled by his vain imaginations.

'No' if we believe that scholars and religious leaders of each religion have faithfully contructed the best theology to represent the true spirit and intent of their founder. If that were true then it would be impossible for the contradictions within Islam and Christianity to be resolved. Either one or the other or both would be false.

I lean strongly towards yes. There is just One God and He has revealed Himself through both Jesus and Muhammad.

Questions, comments, discussion and debate as you will.

There is less overlap with some splinter Folk Islam groups like Nation of Islam (where Black people come from the moon and whites made by a mad scientist).

 

[whirlingmerc]

Religion is divided because it did not originate with God.
Religion is a form of worship.

Worship of God doesn't take forms. There is only one way to worship God- which he outlines.
Jesus said - John 4:24 - God is a spirit. Those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”

It is evident that there are many forms of worship even in "Christianity" today. They are divided - Catholic against Protestant, etc.
"Christianity" is divided by their various doctrines which did not originate with God, through the teachings of Christ, hence their form of worship - religion - did not originate with God. Matthew 15:9

It is apparent that they are not united in worship of the true God, hence Jesus' words at Matthew 7
15 “Beware of false prophets...
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the person who does what my Father in heaven wants. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in your name? Didn’t we force out demons and do many miracles by the power and authority of your name?’ 23 Then I will tell them publicly, ‘I’ve never known you. Get away from me, you evil people.’

Evidently the scriptures show that only those united in worship of the true God will enjoy peace, because they are taught by him.
Isaiah 2
2 In the last days the mountain of the Lord’s house
will be established as the highest of the mountains
and raised above the hills.
All the nations will stream to it.
3 Then many people will come and say,
“Let’s go to the mountain of the Lord,
to the house of the God of Jacob.
He will teach us his ways so that we may live by them.”

This scripture, evidently indicates that people must worship God on his terms - that is - They must identify how God wants them to worship, and worship God accordingly. That may call for them to leave their former way of worship, and be united with God's people.
2 Corinthians 6:14-18

Yes, Jesus told the woman at the well that true worship is not on this place or that place, not in this mountain or that mountain, but in a different category 'in spirit and truth'

 

[Muffled]

I believe reconciling Muslims and Christians has similar difficulties with reconciling adherents of Judaism and Christians. There is a lot of antagonistic history that stands in the way not just the misconceived notions.

 

[Muffled]

29 jun 2018 stvdv 014 06

I believe religions can only meet if they drop the "my way is the highway" arrogance
Arrogance is known to blind the people. 2000 years of arrogance is "stone-blind"

This "my way is the highway" is the cause of many wars. Now we have more bombs
than ever. So if those 2 extinguish each other I think they can be reconciled
If not, I have to see it to believe it. I am not such a blind believer

So I choose for Possibly "if they extinguish each other"
Which mentally they do already for so many years
But I pray to God to open their eyes and stop doing that

I believe there are only two highways. The Highway to the New Jerusalem and eternal life and the highway to hell.

I believe Muslims have some sense of end time things but they just don't know how to get on the Way and the Way is Jesus.

 

[Muffled]

I would like to say yes and no but this is a matter of individual sectarian beliefs as opposed to general Christian beliefs. I think so long as there is a deification of Jesus, Islamophobia and negative stereotypes against Islam, and dogmatisms, there can be no reconciliation. I think the reconciliation can only be done through scholarly work not through the religiosity among the masses of people.

I believe that is incorrect. Jesus has stated His deity and needs no-one to make Him God.

I believe that might be the case with the misinformed but for those who are educated in theology there is no fear of Muslims only a lack of respect due to the concept that they got things wrong about Jesus so they can't be following a worthy religion.

 

[shunyadragon]

Well I'm going based on history (as in historical documents that represent Muhammad as the final prophet), and considering Islam has a longer history than Baha'i it is recognizable historically Muhammad is considered according to scholastic theology to be the last prophet in Islam. I was careful in parenthesis to also mention that there are also mystical visionaries that came after who promoted a similar message as Muhammad. Both Baha'i and even Sikhism find their roots in Islam and with that being said, it is important to make these distinctions.

It remains that Muhammad is the final prophet from a theological perspective of some divisions of Islam, and not an academic perspective of the different religions. The Baha'i Faith does not make the claim of simply a mystical movement. It makes the claim that the Bab and Baha'u'llah are manifestations of God like Muhammad and Christ. These claims like those of Christ and Muhammad may not be true, but historically Muhammad is not the final prophet in the Abrahamic succession of manifestations of God. Christians make the same theological claim as the manifestations of God. Muhammad from an unbiased academic historical perspective is not the final prophet.

 

[ecco]

...often its best to just respect each other's faith and not discuss the details.

Both parties need to be willing and able to participate in an interfaith dialogue.

If there are people with whom it's best to not discuss the details, how can there ever be meaningful interfaith dialogues resulting in reconciliation between faiths? It seems your concept of reconciliation leaves out a lot of people. If a lot of people are left out, there is no reconciliation.

The best you can hope for is the establishment of a new religion that is amenable to other religions and gods. Maybe someone should come up with such a religion.

 

[David1967]

Sounds like you're covering your bases. I'm especially happy to hear your son is pitching in, and that you've got a customer whose brain you can pick.

Just curious, but do you know yet whether you'd sell out of your existing store, assuming you decide to sell?

I'm going to PM you about this later SS. So I don't inadvertently derail @adrian009 thread.

 

[stvdv]

I believe there are only two highways. The Highway to the New Jerusalem and eternal life and the highway to hell.
I believe Muslims have some sense of end time things but they just don't know how to get on the Way and the Way is Jesus.

Wow, at least you arranged for a highway to hell. You are a smart guy. At least you don't rot on the way up, to your destination. Safe journey bye bye.

 

[ecco]

ecco said: ↑
That sounds like the Bill Clinton defense.

No because God can do miracles and the virgin birth is an example and by the way the virgin birth of Christ is agreed on by both Muslims (all types) and Christians (Protestants, Catholics and Eastern Orthodox)

Muslim and Christians agree on the virgin birth of Christ as well as God the creator of heaven and earth.

You are asserting that because the Holy Ghost impregnated a young woman under questionable circumstances without breaking her hymen, that it was not an act of rape.

My emphases...

Definition of rape
1: unlawful sexual activity and usually sexual intercourse carried out forcibly or under threat of injury against a person's will or with a person who is beneath a certain age or incapable of valid consent because of mental illness, mental deficiency, intoxication, unconsciousness, or deception — compare sexual assault, statutory rape
: an outrageous violation​

Perhaps it's just my atheistic morals, but rape is rape.

 

[wizanda]

what is your religious background?

Studied many religions globally, always known the NT was corrupted since young, and have systematically spent years analyzing everyone's texts, to help mankind before the Tribulation.

What particular brand of Christianity do you subscribe to?

Christianity contradicts Christ, and was established after by the Pharisees (John, Paul, and Simon).

In my opinion.

 

[starsofirelight]

People never seem to grasp the reality that - Had other religions developed in or near the religion of the God of the Bible and the Torah and Gospels – these religions also would have similar things about them too, yet Trinitarians never use this critical thinking or any critical thought process in their faith and reasoning. This is because most of their faith has already been decided by a Canaanite, Persian, Arabian, European leader in Italy.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Religion is divided because it did not originate with God.
Religion is a form of worship.

Worship of God doesn't take forms. There is only one way to worship God- which he outlines.
Jesus said - John 4:24 - God is a spirit. Those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”

It is evident that there are many forms of worship even in "Christianity" today. They are divided - Catholic against Protestant, etc.
"Christianity" is divided by their various doctrines which did not originate with God, through the teachings of Christ, hence their form of worship - religion - did not originate with God. Matthew 15:9

It is apparent that they are not united in worship of the true God, hence Jesus' words at Matthew 7
15 “Beware of false prophets...
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the person who does what my Father in heaven wants. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in your name? Didn’t we force out demons and do many miracles by the power and authority of your name?’ 23 Then I will tell them publicly, ‘I’ve never known you. Get away from me, you evil people.’

Evidently the scriptures show that only those united in worship of the true God will enjoy peace, because they are taught by him.
Isaiah 2
2 In the last days the mountain of the Lord’s house
will be established as the highest of the mountains
and raised above the hills.
All the nations will stream to it.
3 Then many people will come and say,
“Let’s go to the mountain of the Lord,
to the house of the God of Jacob.
He will teach us his ways so that we may live by them.”

This scripture, evidently indicates that people must worship God on his terms - that is - They must identify how God wants them to worship, and worship God accordingly. That may call for them to leave their former way of worship, and be united with God's people.
2 Corinthians 6:14-18

To understand the bible is to recognise it as a book of change. Moses gave laws as to the worship of God. The focal point was the temple and the Hebrew people built Solomon’s temple after the reign of King David. Soon the Jewish Kingdom would be divided. Prophets warned against the worship of false Gods and transgressions against the law. The Covenant God had established with His people was broken. His protection from adversaries was no longer guaranteed. The Hebrew peoples were to be conquered by the Asyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Greeks and finally the Romans.

The Persians allowed the rebuild of Jerusalem and the temple. If you know your bible and history then you will know Isaiah referred to King Cyrus as the anointed one. Who was King Cyrus? A Persian King most likely a Zoroastrian. Who was Zoroaster? One who revealed a monotheistic religion.

Unfortunately more iniquities and transgressions followed. God sent prophets and eventually His Son Jesus. He brought a New Covenant and enabled all the peoples of the earth to receive the gospel.

What of the temple? It was to be destroyed and a new one set forth. Jesus Himself became the new temple and the focal point of worship. The sacrificial laws of the OT became obsolete.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Religion is divided because it did not originate with God.
Religion is a form of worship.

Worship of God doesn't take forms. There is only one way to worship God- which he outlines.
Jesus said - John 4:24 - God is a spirit. Those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”

It is evident that there are many forms of worship even in "Christianity" today. They are divided - Catholic against Protestant, etc.
"Christianity" is divided by their various doctrines which did not originate with God, through the teachings of Christ, hence their form of worship - religion - did not originate with God. Matthew 15:9

It is apparent that they are not united in worship of the true God, hence Jesus' words at Matthew 7
15 “Beware of false prophets...
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the person who does what my Father in heaven wants. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in your name? Didn’t we force out demons and do many miracles by the power and authority of your name?’ 23 Then I will tell them publicly, ‘I’ve never known you. Get away from me, you evil people.’

Evidently the scriptures show that only those united in worship of the true God will enjoy peace, because they are taught by him.
Isaiah 2
2 In the last days the mountain of the Lord’s house
will be established as the highest of the mountains
and raised above the hills.
All the nations will stream to it.
3 Then many people will come and say,
“Let’s go to the mountain of the Lord,
to the house of the God of Jacob.
He will teach us his ways so that we may live by them.”

This scripture, evidently indicates that people must worship God on his terms - that is - They must identify how God wants them to worship, and worship God accordingly. That may call for them to leave their former way of worship, and be united with God's people.
2 Corinthians 6:14-18

Fast forward to 610 AD. Muhammad an illiterate nomadic herdsman starts teaching His people about the Oneness of God. The clansman of the Arabian Peninsula were a most barbaric and educated lot. The message that they should no longer worship the gods of their ancestors but the One True God of the Jews and Christians was a hard sell to put it mildly. Despite the best efforts of competing tribes to utterly destroy Muhammad and His followers He conquered them with His word and by the sword too. Within the span of two decades Muhammad had united the Arabian tribes, had them worshipping Allah, and had reformed their morals. The Christian missionaries were never going to achieve this, let’s be frank. He claimed a Message from the Angel Gabriel and we have the Quran we can read ourselves to consider if His message really was from God.

In all fairness the Teachings were more like those of Moses than Christ. Christ’s audience was almost exclusively Jews who had had the benefit of 1,500 years of the Teachings of Moses and the prophets. Muhammad had no such luxury. His audience were pagans who were savage beyond comprehension.

Three centuries later we would have Baghdad as the greatest centre of learning on the planet. The Islamic Golden age was probably the most important factor that lifted Europe out of the darkness of the Middle Ages.

Did Muhammad bring a message from God or Satan? Be fair in your judgment.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Studied many religions globally, always known the NT was corrupted since young, and have systematically spent years analyzing everyone's texts, to help mankind before the Tribulation.

Christianity contradicts Christ, and was established after by the Pharisees (John, Paul, and Simon).

In my opinion.

A simple, "I do not subscribe to orthodox or unorthodox Christian religions" would suffice...

 

[Epic Beard Man]

I believe that is incorrect. Jesus has stated His deity and needs no-one to make Him God.

I believe that might be the case with the misinformed but for those who are educated in theology there is no fear of Muslims only a lack of respect due to the concept that they got things wrong about Jesus so they can't be following a worthy religion.

"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one."

Mark 12:29

"As Jesus started on His way, a man ran up and knelt before Him. “Good Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?” 18“Why do you call Me good? Jesus replied, “No one is good except God alone."

Mark 10: 17-18

Jesus was either Schizophrenic or was talking about a separate deity

 

[Epic Beard Man]

It remains that Muhammad is the final prophet from a theological perspective of some divisions of Islam, and not an academic perspective of the different religions. The Baha'i Faith does not make the claim of simply a mystical movement. It makes the claim that the Bab and Baha'u'llah are manifestations of God like Muhammad and Christ. These claims like those of Christ and Muhammad may not be true, but historically Muhammad is not the final prophet in the Abrahamic succession of manifestations of God. Christians make the same theological claim as the manifestations of God. Muhammad from an unbiased academic historical perspective is not the final prophet.

I apologize for my ignorance. I'll be more careful in my wording.