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Why doesn’t God communicate directly to everyone?

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I am saying it is a lame*** excuse to say "that people have to be willing to sincerely search for God using their own innate powers of reasoning in order to be worthy of knowing God exists, rather than just sitting back and doing nothing, waiting for God to communicate to them".

It is just a convenient excuse.
Excuse for what? So the Almighty God who created the heavens and the earth needs to make excuses to the humans He created for setting the parameters for belief in Him? If you cannot figure out how illogical that is....

So you think that humans should not be required to do anything but sit back and wait for God to communicate to them like a baby bird waiting for momma bird to come and bring the food?

So God gave humans free will and a logical mind for no reason at all?

Oh wait! Maybe we are supposed to use our free will and our logical mind for everything else we do in life, but not for searching for God because God owes us a free ride...
UNBELIEVABLE....
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Above an ordinary man ?
This sounds just like what @columbus was saying.
It sounds like something that humans would invent to make them feel superior.
No, God invented Messengers because these Messengers originated from God...

Far, far from making humans feel superior, it makes us realize that we are as nothing compared to God and His Messengers... We are humble servants at their door. :)
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Never claimed that God cared about any of that. All I've said is that an all knowing God already knows that it created me with a need for verifiable evidence and if it has no intention of providing me with verifiable evidence, then it obviously does not want me to believe. If this God wanted me to believe it either would not have created me with a need for verification or it would provide such verification. It's really not that complicated a concept.
God did not create you with that need... You just think you have that need. You do not need that to believe in God. The proof is that we were all created the same way and you are no different from anyone else. Since 93% of people in the world believe in God without any verifiable evidence that is proof that people were not created with a need for verifiable evidence.

You are not some special order of creation different from everyone else in the world. All humans were created the same way. Atheists just think they need verifiable evidence, they have convinced themselves of that, but they are wrong. God knows all of us better than we know ourselves; that comes with being “All-Knowing.” Read this carefully...

“Consider, moreover, how frequently doth man become forgetful of his own self, whilst God remaineth, through His all-encompassing knowledge, aware of His creature, and continueth to shed upon him the manifest radiance of His glory. It is evident, therefore, that, in such circumstances, He is closer to him than his own self. He will, indeed, so remain for ever, for, whereas the one true God knoweth all things, perceiveth all things, and comprehendeth all things, mortal man is prone to err, and is ignorant of the mysteries that lie enfolded within him….”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 186
And your logic about free will is faulty. The fact that you have verifiable evidence that the sun exists does not mean you don't have free will. The fact that you have verifiable evidence that water freezes at 32 degrees Fahrenheit does not mean you don't have free will. If God were to provide verifiable evidence for its existence, it would not mean that you no longer have free will. All it would mean is that you would no longer have to pretend that God exists without verifiable evidence.
I did not say that you would not have free will if God provided verifiable evidence of His existence. You would still have free will because that is an inbuilt feature of humans. What I said is that if you knew that God existed, you would not be able to turn away from God... You would choose to believe in God because you would know God exists. God does not want you to choose because you know, thereby you are coerced. God wants you to choose because you want to believe in Him, not because you have to believe in Him.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Excuse for what? So the Almighty God who created the heavens and the earth needs to make excuses to the humans He created for setting the parameters for belief in Him? If you cannot figure out how illogical that is....

No no no. You misunderstood me. I don't mean that God is making excuses. I mean that you and those that share your view are making up that excuse.

So you think that humans should not be required to do anything but sit back and wait for God to communicate to them like a baby bird waiting for momma bird to come and bring the food?

So God gave humans free will and a logical mind for no reason at all?

Oh wait! Maybe we are supposed to use our free will and our logical mind for everything else we do in life, but not for searching for God because God owes us a free ride...
UNBELIEVABLE....

You lost me here.
Why should it be elaborated to be able to communicate with God ?
Why couldn't it be as simple as we are doing at this very moment talking to each other ?
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
No, God invented Messengers because these Messengers originated from God...

Or so you say.

Far, far from making humans feel superior, it makes us realize that we are as nothing compared to God and His Messengers... We are humble servants at their door. :)

I am afraid you have missed the point.
I meant that someone calling himself a Messenger, as someone above humans, sounds like an invented story to make them feel (and seem) superior.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
No no no. You misunderstood me. I don't mean that God is making excuses. I mean that you and those that share your view are making up that excuse.
Okay then, what is the excuse we are making up? :confused:
You lost me here.
Why should it be elaborated to be able to communicate with God ?
Why couldn't it be as simple as we are doing at this very moment talking to each other ?
Good question. :)
Is God a human being? If not, then how could God communicate like we are doing now?
I will save the rest for later... :D
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Okay then, what is the excuse we are making up? :confused:

I have told you already... twice, but I don't mind quoting it again: " I said that people have to be willing to sincerely search for God using their own innate powers of reasoning in order to be worthy of knowing God exists, rather than just sitting back and doing nothing, waiting for God to communicate to them."

Good question. :)
Is God a human being? If not, then how could God communicate like we are doing now?
I will save the rest for later... :D

A relevant question, but if that's not possible then it entails that humans are capable of something that God is not which poses a problem by itself.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
I have told you already... twice, but I don't mind quoting it again: " I said that people have to be willing to sincerely search for God using their own innate powers of reasoning in order to be worthy of knowing God exists, rather than just sitting back and doing nothing, waiting for God to communicate to them."
Interesting point, but I wonder if you have considered that throughout human history, billions have been doing that with all the best will in the world, as diligently as they could -- and for some unfathomable reason have come up with different gods. It's almost as if the search is such that, if you are searching for "this kind of god," the god who is "this kind" will answer you, and if somebody else is searching for another kind of god, that god will answer them. Great argument for polytheism, actually.
A relevant question, but if that's not possible then it entails that humans are capable of something that God is not which poses a problem by itself.
Not a relevant answer, however, since it is well understood, in every religion that I can find, that God has indeed communicated directly and individually, and sometimes en masse, to humans. If He could do it once, He can do it again. Unless, of course, He no longer cares to.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I most certainly did not.

I realize that according to the primitive ethics of the Bible's authors punishing large groups, like families or cities, for displeasing a king was accepted morality. Fortunately, we have moved beyond the primitive morality of their day even if Scripture hasn't.

I honestly believe that the primary reason for Creationism, the ability to disregard the mountains of evidence for evolution, is for this reason. The evidence demonstrates clearly that we were made just as we are, and continue to be born so. The unfortunate results of human nature aren't because some ancient people chose it somehow. It's because we are shaped that way, whether by Jehovah or evolution.
Tom

From your perspective, (going by your own description of your position, religiously speaking,) I can understand where you are coming from.

On closer investigation, I found that the "mountains of evidence" for macro-evolution (as opposed to the provable and relatively minor changes of "adaptation") turned out to be merely 'molehills of suggestion and supposition'. There is actually no solid provable evidence for macro-evolution....but there is solid proof for adaptation which only produces variety within a taxonomic family of creatures. Never has science produced real evidence for the macro changes or mutations that are supposed to be the foundation of their theory. This is the only real fact in evolution.

When I was searching for my answers, I looked a little deeper.
Science knows that DNA is basically the "building code" for all living things. Every cell in our body is designed to know what to become....a heart...a liver...a brain...a kidney....or whatever. A building code cannot be an accident. It is based on complex information and complex information cannot materialise out of nowhere. It has to have an Intelligent source.

Science also knows that the process of cell renewal in our bodies should theoretically continue indefinitely......but at some point, it slows down and begins to go backwards. That means that we reach physical maturity and then like a clock, it slows down and begins to wind down until it stops. The strange thing is, as we get older physically, our minds do not age along with it. Young minds then get trapped in old bodies. When you are young, you never believe that you will get old.....but we cannot stop or reverse the process....humans have been trying to do that for thousands of years.

As a Bible student, I have searched for the answers that science cannot provide. The most important questions can never be answered by science because it has eliminated the first cause of life, preferring to shove that inconvenient truth aside to focus on change rather than origin. To my way of thinking, if you can't show how life began, then what does it matter how it supposedly changed....and mostly by assumption and guesswork anyway.

The Bible's explanation satisfies all the hard questions for me.
God created everything to his own satisfaction and then sat back to see how his intelligent creation would respond to his generosity and care. In giving them free will, nothing was certain, so he allowed enough time for all eventualities to surface and be dealt with before continuing on with his plans.

Abuse of free will was the first sign that lessons needed to be learned.....and what better way to teach than by experience?
Humans stepped out from behind Jehovah's protective care to make their own decisions without him. He did not abandon them, but allowed them to 'reap what they had sown' whilst providing his guidance and giving humans a written record of his dealings with the only nation to whom he gave his laws.

In Eden, God's first response was to take away their only source of everlasting life. They had merited the death penalty and it was not stated how that penalty would be implemented. Something happened to their DNA, so that whatever defect was now active in their bodies as a result of the penalty, would be passed onto their children, who would also learn from their parents. For our benefit, no sinful human would be permitted to live forever. The whole human race needed to learn this lesson....."obey God and reap blessings or disobey him and reap hardship and suffering". it could not have been taught collectively any other way.

Every human suffering on this planet is caused by some human abusing their free will in some way. There are perps and victims in this scenario.....but regardless of the situation, we have to learn what it means to obey the directives of the Creator who knows better than we do, what is best for us. Words are apparently, not enough as was demonstrated in Eden....it was also demonstrated all through the Bible. God's words were backed up by actions, so that his people were left in no doubt that they needed to obey him to receive his blessings. He showed them that meriting his displeasure would not result in happiness or freedom. At times this involved 'community responsibility' because unless the whole community was affected, there was no real impetus for changes collectively in behavior.

Whether we believe that God's ways are just or not, matters little, as his ways reflect was is for the common good, not just for the individual. Precedents are being set for all eternity to come.....rebellion can never surface again because all the lessons are now set in law forever.

That is how I see things....
Jehovah is my Sovereign Ruler and my God....
Who am I as a mere mortal to challenge my Maker and treat him and his ways with disrespect? What do I know, and what do my personal opinions matter to him? Why would I think that God should fit into my 'box', when all he ever asked us to do was to fit into his? Nothing he has ever asked was too hard. I believe that the rewards for doing what God asks of us will be well worth the effort. :)
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Interesting point, but I wonder if you have considered that throughout human history, billions have been doing that with all the best will in the world, as diligently as they could -- and for some unfathomable reason have come up with different gods. It's almost as if the search is such that, if you are searching for "this kind of god," the god who is "this kind" will answer you, and if somebody else is searching for another kind of god, that god will answer them. Great argument for polytheism, actually.

I am left wondering if you understood that what I quoted was the excuse I was criticizing in the first place.
But sure, I have considered that. I call it the power of bias.

Not a relevant answer, however, since it is well understood, in every religion that I can find, that God has indeed communicated directly and individually, and sometimes en masse, to humans. If He could do it once, He can do it again. Unless, of course, He no longer cares to.

Historical revisionism is a thing though.
Not to mention that in the context of this conversation, Messengers are, somehow, not really humans. So that, oddly, doesn't count.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Or so you say.
No, or so the Messenger says. How else could we know anything about God? o_O
I am afraid you have missed the point.
I meant that someone calling himself a Messenger, as someone above humans, sounds like an invented story to make them feel (and seem) superior.
Granted, it might sound like that, but that does not mean that is what it is....
Moreover, the way you know that they are a real Messenger of God is when they don't act superior, but rather humble themselves before God...

“Incline your ears to the counsels which this Servant giveth you for the sake of God. He, verily, asketh no recompense from you and is resigned to what God hath ordained for Him, and is entirely submissive to God’s Will.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 127

“Certain ones among you have said: “He it is Who hath laid claim to be God.” By God! This is a gross calumny. I am but a servant of God Who hath believed in Him and in His signs, and in His Prophets and in His angels. My tongue, and My heart, and My inner and My outer being testify that there is no God but Him, that all others have been created by His behest, and been fashioned through the operation of His Will. There is none other God but Him, the Creator, the Raiser from the dead, the Quickener, the Slayer. I am He that telleth abroad the favors with which God hath, through His bounty, favored Me.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 228
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I have told you already... twice, but I don't mind quoting it again: " I said that people have to be willing to sincerely search for God using their own innate powers of reasoning in order to be worthy of knowing God exists, rather than just sitting back and doing nothing, waiting for God to communicate to them."
I do not understand how that is an excuse, excuse for what? o_O:confused:
A relevant question, but if that's not possible then it entails that humans are capable of something that God is not which poses a problem by itself.
God is fully capable of speaking, but God cannot speak like a human because God is not a human, so God has to speak through His Messengers.

“Attract the hearts of men, through the call of Him, the one alone Beloved. Say: This is the Voice of God, if ye do but hearken. This is the Day Spring of the Revelation of God, did ye but know it. This is the Dawning-Place of the Cause of God, were ye to recognize it. This is the Source of the commandment of God, did ye but judge it fairly. This is the manifest and hidden Secret; would that ye might perceive it.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 33
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Not a relevant answer, however, since it is well understood, in every religion that I can find, that God has indeed communicated directly and individually, and sometimes en masse, to humans. If He could do it once, He can do it again. Unless, of course, He no longer cares to.
What religions are those? Who has God communicated to directly and individually?
When you said en masse, were you referring to when God spoke to the Israelites?
Why do you think God would ever do that again, if God ever did?
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
I do not understand how that is an excuse, excuse for what? o_O:confused:

An excuse as to why God doesn't communicate with people.

God is fully capable of speaking, but God cannot speak like a human because God is not a human, so God has to speak through His Messengers.

“Attract the hearts of men, through the call of Him, the one alone Beloved. Say: This is the Voice of God, if ye do but hearken. This is the Day Spring of the Revelation of God, did ye but know it. This is the Dawning-Place of the Cause of God, were ye to recognize it. This is the Source of the commandment of God, did ye but judge it fairly. This is the manifest and hidden Secret; would that ye might perceive it.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 33

Or so you say.
Still, God being unable to do something posits a theological problem to some believers.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
No, or so the Messenger says. How else could we know anything about God? o_O

Weird question.
It is like asking: How else could an extremely powerful and resourceful being communicate ?
I, limited as I am, can imagine a lot of different ways. Can't you ?

Granted, it might sound like that, but that does not mean that is what it is....
Moreover, the way you know that they are a real Messenger of God is when they don't act superior, but rather humble themselves before God...


“Incline your ears to the counsels which this Servant giveth you for the sake of God. He, verily, asketh no recompense from you and is resigned to what God hath ordained for Him, and is entirely submissive to God’s Will.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 127

“Certain ones among you have said: “He it is Who hath laid claim to be God.” By God! This is a gross calumny. I am but a servant of God Who hath believed in Him and in His signs, and in His Prophets and in His angels. My tongue, and My heart, and My inner and My outer being testify that there is no God but Him, that all others have been created by His behest, and been fashioned through the operation of His Will. There is none other God but Him, the Creator, the Raiser from the dead, the Quickener, the Slayer. I am He that telleth abroad the favors with which God hath, through His bounty, favored Me.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 228

I am sorry, but the fact you have set the bar so low by no means entails that I ( or anybody else for this matter ) will, or should, do the same.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
An excuse as to why God doesn't communicate with people.
I thought you agreed that God needs no excuses? o_O So, if God needs no excuses, how could I be making excuses for God?
I am not the one in charge of the communication department, God is. So if God does not communicate with everyone directly, you will have to take that up with God, not with me.
Or so you say.
Still, God being unable to do something posits a theological problem to some believers.
It posits no problem for me. The fact that God cannot become a man is no problem for me because i fully understand why God does not do that...

“Know thou of a certainty that the Unseen can in no wise incarnate His Essence and reveal it unto men. He is, and hath ever been, immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived. From His retreat of glory His voice is ever proclaiming: “Verily, I am God; there is none other God besides Me, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. I have manifested Myself unto men, and have sent down Him Who is the Day Spring of the signs of My Revelation. Through Him I have caused all creation to testify that there is none other God except Him, the Incomparable, the All-Informed, the All-Wise.” He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 49
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Weird question.
It is like asking: How else could an extremely powerful and resourceful being communicate ?
I, limited as I am, can imagine a lot of different ways. Can't you ?
Tell me then, in what other way could God communicate the 15,000 Tablets He communicated to Baha'u'llah such that everyone in the world could gain access to that information? o_O
I am sorry, but the fact you have set the bar so low by no means entails that I ( or anybody else for this matter ) will, or should, do the same.
That is just one way that I know... There are many other ways that I know.
I do not set the bar low.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
I thought you agreed that God needs no excuses? o_O So, if God needs no excuses, how could I be making excuses for God?
I am not the one in charge of the communication department, God is. So if God does not communicate with everyone directly, you will have to take that up with God, not with me.

Because you feel the need to justify/explain why God doesn't communicate with people.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Tell me then, in what other way could God communicate the 15,000 Tablets He communicated to Baha'u'llah such that everyone in the world could gain access to that information? o_O

Do you want an example ?
Just make everyone know everything in those tablets. Nothing extra required. No tablets required.

That is just one way that I know... There are many other ways that I know.
I do not set the bar low.

Very well, but your post was misleading then since that is not what you said.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Because you feel the need to justify/explain why God doesn't communicate with people.
Baha'u'llah is the one who explained it...He was the Messenger of God..
I am just explaining to you what He explained in His Writings...
There is no justifying it... it is what it is as God does what God does... God does not need to justify it.
 
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