Is God Omniscient as people say?

[Sleeppy]

There is nothing there to indicate God as knowing all things.

Post #9

 

[Ponder This]

So how is God Omniscient ?
As people say?

Is he psychic.

This is why God knows how everything in spacetime will unfold--because He created it in the first place (and parenthetically, this is also why free will cannot exist).

Baha'u'llah has said;

"...Every act ye meditate is as clear to Him as is that act when already accomplished. There is none other God besides Him. His is all creation and its empire. All stands revealed before Him; all is recorded in His holy and hidden Tablets. This fore-knowledge of God, however, should not be regarded as having caused the actions of men, just as your own previous knowledge that a certain event is to occur, or your desire that it should happen, is not and can never be the reason for its occurrence." (Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 150)

Consider that there is a basic logical conundrum with any claim to predict the future. It goes like this:

A person dreams that the Titanic sinks and he drowns and dies. The next day, he chooses not to board the Titanic. As a result, he does not drown and die.

Essentially, the problem is that once you know the future, you can change the future. And because you can change the future, it means that you didn't actually know the future to begin with. You only knew potential futures.

This dilemma is a bit like the all-powerful God who creates a stone He cannot lift. Being "all-knowing" in the sense of knowing the future is a logical contradiction.

Also consider that: if you drop a stone, then it will fall. Anyone can make predict the force due to gravity. Because people can predict the force due to gravity, they fall under the illusion that the outcomes of all things may be predicted. They have forgotten who it is that drops the stone in the first place.

It isnt possible to count the hair on your head let alone everyone on the planet. That's the point.

It seems to me that counting all those hairs is just a very difficult calculation. There isn't anything particularly special about it other than the common person can't do it instantly. I can well imagine a computer with a special camera literally counting all the hairs on a head in a tiny fraction of a second. Saying God knows these things seems elementary.

The Book of Mormon says this:

O how great the holiness of our God! For he knoweth all things, and there is not anything save he knows it. (2 Nephi 9:20)

Personally, I put no stock whatsoever in the Book of Mormon, but good call on picking out that quote!

the only thing they would regret is something they did wrong.

Not quite. For example, if a parent punishes his child because his child did something wrong, the parent may regret punishing the child even though the parent knows it was the right thing to do (and is the thing he would do if there was a do over). In other words, the parent has not made a mistake despite regretting.

Conclusion: God ain't perfect, and he admits it

I'm actually a little bit unclear about what perfection is, so I can't really comment on this other than to say I don't know of any place God says He is lacking or incomplete.

Here is another same concept, Psalm 147:4-5
"He determines the number of the stars and calls them each by name. Great is our Lord and mighty in power; his understanding has no limit."

In physics, the idea sometimes comes up that we could predict everything is we had perfect knowledge of everything. In other words, that if we knew the position, velocity, and states of every particle of the universe and the mental capacity, we could, in theory, predict everything. We could, for example, know where every drop of rain would fall. But it seems to be that this is just a theory: no one can prove it and it seems impossible to actually have all the information necessary to ever do so.

Was David wrong in Psalm 139:1-4?
"You have searched me, LORD, and you know me. You know when I sit and when I rise; you perceive my thoughts from afar. You discern my going out and my lying down; you are familiar with all my ways. Before a word is on my tongue you, LORD, know it completely."

This seems to reference the heart or character of a person: inner knowledge rather than outer knowledge, something that occurs when two people know each other closely or intimately. It seems that David believes that God knows him in this way.

What is being refuted, God as being Omniscient, which is a false teaching.

There is no where in the Bible that God as being all knowing.

There are definitely passages that suggest that God knows things that we don't know. And I think there is a case to be made that there are things that we can never know - 'unknowables'.

 

[MonkeyFire]

Omniscience is the fallen angel of light.

 

[Skwim]

Not quite. For example, if a parent punishes his child because his child did something wrong, the parent may regret punishing the child even though the parent knows it was the right thing to do (and is the thing he would do if there was a do over). In other words, the parent has not made a mistake despite regretting.

I believe you're confusing feeling sorry with regretting. If he knows he did the right thing and would do it over again, as you say, then it wouldn't be a regrettable action.

.

 

[Axe Elf]

Consider that there is a basic logical conundrum with any claim to predict the future. It goes like this:

A person dreams that the Titanic sinks and he drowns and dies. The next day, he chooses not to board the Titanic. As a result, he does not drown and die.

Essentially, the problem is that once you know the future, you can change the future. And because you can change the future, it means that you didn't actually know the future to begin with. You only knew potential futures.

This dilemma is a bit like the all-powerful God who creates a stone He cannot lift. Being "all-knowing" in the sense of knowing the future is a logical contradiction.

Also consider that: if you drop a stone, then it will fall. Anyone can make predict the force due to gravity. Because people can predict the force due to gravity, they fall under the illusion that the outcomes of all things may be predicted. They have forgotten who it is that drops the stone in the first place.

That's such a superficial understanding of spacetime. It's not about "predicting" the future, as if it were in doubt, it's about KNOWING the future, and KNOWING precludes ANYTHING else from happening.

Time is like a movie, and we are just characters in it. We can only see the story develop in one direction, but the movie is already made. Someone outside the movie, like the Director (let's call him "God") can run the film forwards and backwards and see what happens at any individual moment (and what's more, the Director is responsible for everything that happens at every individual moment). And every time the film is viewed forward or backward, the same things happen at exactly the same times. Even if it is a movie about a guy finding out about something that will happen later on in the movie (and even if it is a movie about a movie about such a fellow), every frame of the movie still looks exactly the same, no matter the order in which they are viewed.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Consider that there is a basic logical conundrum with any claim to predict the future. It goes like this:

A person dreams that the Titanic sinks and he drowns and dies. The next day, he chooses not to board the Titanic. As a result, he does not drown and die.

Essentially, the problem is that once you know the future, you can change the future. And because you can change the future, it means that you didn't actually know the future to begin with. You only knew potential futures.

This dilemma is a bit like the all-powerful God who creates a stone He cannot lift. Being "all-knowing" in the sense of knowing the future is a logical contradiction.

Also consider that: if you drop a stone, then it will fall. Anyone can make predict the force due to gravity. Because people can predict the force due to gravity, they fall under the illusion that the outcomes of all things may be predicted. They have forgotten who it is that drops the stone in the first place.



It seems to me that counting all those hairs is just a very difficult calculation. There isn't anything particularly special about it other than the common person can't do it instantly. I can well imagine a computer with a special camera literally counting all the hairs on a head in a tiny fraction of a second. Saying God knows these things seems elementary.



Personally, I put no stock whatsoever in the Book of Mormon, but good call on picking out that quote!



Not quite. For example, if a parent punishes his child because his child did something wrong, the parent may regret punishing the child even though the parent knows it was the right thing to do (and is the thing he would do if there was a do over). In other words, the parent has not made a mistake despite regretting.



I'm actually a little bit unclear about what perfection is, so I can't really comment on this other than to say I don't know of any place God says He is lacking or incomplete.



In physics, the idea sometimes comes up that we could predict everything is we had perfect knowledge of everything. In other words, that if we knew the position, velocity, and states of every particle of the universe and the mental capacity, we could, in theory, predict everything. We could, for example, know where every drop of rain would fall. But it seems to be that this is just a theory: no one can prove it and it seems impossible to actually have all the information necessary to ever do so.



This seems to reference the heart or character of a person: inner knowledge rather than outer knowledge, something that occurs when two people know each other closely or intimately. It seems that David believes that God knows him in this way.



There are definitely passages that suggest that God knows things that we don't know. And I think there is a case to be made that there are things that we can never know - 'unknowables'.

You say there are definitely passages that suggest that God knows things that we don't know.
Sure this is what is called the Mystery of God. That God has set forth his plan of salvation in Prophecy, which God has revealed in the book of Revelation.As to how everything is to come down.

"Surely the Lord God will do nothing, But he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets" Amos 3:7

Therefore God with holds noting nor will do nothing, that God will not reveal his secret
( Mystery ) unto his servants the prophets.

There is nothing that God knows that he doesn't let his servants the prophets know, so we will know in his word.

It just means, before God makes a move on anything, God has let his servants the prophets know ahead of time, which is written down in his word.

But none of this proves that God is Omniscient.
For say, God does not know what you will do, before you do anything.

 

[InChrist]

But none of this proves that God is Omniscient.
For say, God does not know what you will do, before you do anything.

O Lord, you have searched me and known me!
You know when I sit down and when I rise up;
you discern my thoughts from afar.
You search out my path and my lying down
and are acquainted with all my ways.
Even before a word is on my tongue,
behold, O Lord, you know it altogether.
You hem me in, behind and before,
and lay your hand upon me.
Such knowledge is too wonderful for me;
it is high; I cannot attain it.

Psalm 139:2-6

 

[InChrist]

Do you have any idea or clue, What God is talking about when he said ( Remember the former things of old, from ancient times that are not yet done)

Can you explain this, when was the former things of old, from ancient times ?

No one's refuting that God dwells in eternity outside of human time.

What is being refuted, God as being Omniscient, which is a false teaching.

There is no where in the Bible that God as being all knowing.

Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like Me, Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things that are not yet done,Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
And I will do all My pleasure (Isaiah 46:9-10)

It means what it says... God, the only God, knows the end from the beginning. God alone knows what will happen in future on the timeline of human history and has declared and revealed prophetic events before they occur.

You do refute the reality that God exists in the eternal realm outside of human time when you insist that He is not omniscient and cannot see or know past, present, and future.

 

[Cary Cook]

@Axe Elf

I mean, you can define god as anything or anyone. If what I believe is called god, god wouldnt be all knowing etc becauae that is not its nature. Its not a being because god is in all and is all. So, basically, youre a part or god and god is apart of you. Its more personal because you are interacting in god like being in your loved ones arms rather than having faith they love you from afar.

One doesnt need to be all knowing to be god, not the god of my understanding.

Correct. There is no reason why the Supreme Being must be omnipotent, omniscient, omni-anything. All of those doctrines come from scripture. And there is no reason why the SB, or any sub-diety would resort to scriptural communication.

 

[Faithofchristian]

O Lord, you have searched me and known me!
You know when I sit down and when I rise up;
you discern my thoughts from afar.
You search out my path and my lying down
and are acquainted with all my ways.
Even before a word is on my tongue,
behold, O Lord, you know it altogether.
You hem me in, behind and before,
and lay your hand upon me.
Such knowledge is too wonderful for me;
it is high; I cannot attain it.

Psalm 139:2-6

There's nothing there that indicates God as being all knowing.
Psalm 139:2-6, only shows that God searches our hearts and nothing about saying that God as being all knowing.
Nice try, but try again.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like Me, Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things that are not yet done,Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
And I will do all My pleasure (Isaiah 46:9-10)

It means what it says... God, the only God, knows the end from the beginning. God alone knows what will happen in future on the timeline of human history and has declared and revealed prophetic events before they occur.

You do refute the reality that God exists in the eternal realm outside of human time when you insist that He is not omniscient and cannot see or know past, present, and future.

Hey look why shouldn't God know
( Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done"
Seeing how God put forth a plan, from the beginning and from ancient times that are not yet done. To fulfil his will.

Do you know when the beginning from ancient times was, When God did this ?

So explain when was the beginning, When God died all of this, from ancient times.

Of course you'll go to Adam and Eve, as the beginning of this world, But this is not the beginning that God is talking about, from ancient times.

So when God Declared the end from the beginning and from ancient times, When did this happen ?

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Is God Omniscient as people are being taught in the churches that God is Omniscient, When there is no where in the Bible that makes this claim?

Let's take the book of 1st John 3:20--"For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things"

At first reading this, a person can be lead to believe, that God is omniscient of knowing all things.

But is this actually what it's saying?

In 1st John chapter 3, is speaking about the heart, God knows all things of the heart, Whether it is good or bad intentions.

God searches the heart to see whether it has good intentions or bad intentions.

Then when a person acts upon the intention of their heart, then it becomes evidence that their intention of their heart was either good or bad intentions.

Does this mean, that God knew beforehand what their intention was, No.

What it means, is that God does not know, only until it's revealed in a person heart, What their true intentions are.

Then when a person acts upon their intention of their heart, Then it has come to its fullest discloser of their intention of their heart is.

But until it comes into a person heart, there's no way of knowing whether their intentions are good or bad. It all starts in the heart first.
Only God can know what's in the heart, whether there will be found good intentions or bad intentions.

It's like a person who goes thru life thinking no bad thoughts, Until one day, bad thoughts start to enter their heart.
Now it's starting in their heart.

Now that person has the choice, to either cast it off or follow it thru.to it's fullest discloser on the outside.

So does God know beforehand, what a person is going to do ?

No, only until it's found in their heart, Then God knows their intention of their heart, Whether it's good or bad.

If a person walks around hateing, Then it's in their heart to hate, So God searches the intention of their heart is to hate.
So everything starts in the heart first, Then when the hate has over taken their heart, Then the hate starts to show its fullest discloser on the outside, This is when things really start to happen.

So is God Omniscient, As in knowing all things beforehand, No, not until, good or bad intentions are found in the heart. Then God see into the heart, to know what exactly are the intentions of the heart. Whether they are bad or good intentions.
Let's take the book of Ezekiel 28:15, for a good example.
"You was perfect in your ways from the day that you was created, till iniquity was found in you"

As you can see, God did not know that Lucifer had any iniquity in him, Till Iniquity was found in him, his heart.
So how is God Omniscient ?
As people say?

Any time it takes 20 paragraphs to explain a verse I become suspicious at best.

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

Is God Omniscient as people are being taught in the churches that God is Omniscient, When there is no where in the Bible that makes this claim?

Let's take the book of 1st John 3:20--"For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things"

At first reading this, a person can be lead to believe, that God is omniscient of knowing all things.

But is this actually what it's saying?

In 1st John chapter 3, is speaking about the heart, God knows all things of the heart, Whether it is good or bad intentions.

God searches the heart to see whether it has good intentions or bad intentions.

Then when a person acts upon the intention of their heart, then it becomes evidence that their intention of their heart was either good or bad intentions.

Does this mean, that God knew beforehand what their intention was, No.

What it means, is that God does not know, only until it's revealed in a person heart, What their true intentions are.

Then when a person acts upon their intention of their heart, Then it has come to its fullest discloser of their intention of their heart is.

But until it comes into a person heart, there's no way of knowing whether their intentions are good or bad. It all starts in the heart first.
Only God can know what's in the heart, whether there will be found good intentions or bad intentions.

It's like a person who goes thru life thinking no bad thoughts, Until one day, bad thoughts start to enter their heart.
Now it's starting in their heart.

Now that person has the choice, to either cast it off or follow it thru.to it's fullest discloser on the outside.

So does God know beforehand, what a person is going to do ?

No, only until it's found in their heart, Then God knows their intention of their heart, Whether it's good or bad.

If a person walks around hateing, Then it's in their heart to hate, So God searches the intention of their heart is to hate.
So everything starts in the heart first, Then when the hate has over taken their heart, Then the hate starts to show its fullest discloser on the outside, This is when things really start to happen.

So is God Omniscient, As in knowing all things beforehand, No, not until, good or bad intentions are found in the heart. Then God see into the heart, to know what exactly are the intentions of the heart. Whether they are bad or good intentions.
Let's take the book of Ezekiel 28:15, for a good example.
"You was perfect in your ways from the day that you was created, till iniquity was found in you"

As you can see, God did not know that Lucifer had any iniquity in him, Till Iniquity was found in him, his heart.
So how is God Omniscient ?
As people say?

Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that God, if It exists, is omnipotent. It makes sense after all, given that It created the universe. But that doesn't mean God can't suspend at least a degree of It's omnipotence in order to bestow the gift of free will on sentient, fully self-aware beings. And that would of course limit It's omniscience. Free will means the ability to make unfettered moral choices free from divine influence. If God knows, then its pre-ordained and thus not free.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Any time it takes 20 paragraphs to explain a verse I become suspicious at best.

Yeah, and I try to keep it to one or two paragraphs, but thentthere some who can't understand one paragraph, so it may take more than one.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that God, if It exists, is omnipotent. It makes sense after all, given that It created the universe. But that doesn't mean God can't suspend at least a degree of It's omnipotence in order to bestow the gift of free will on sentient, fully self-aware beings. And that would of course limit It's omniscience. Free will means the ability to make unfettered moral choices free from divine influence. If God knows, then its pre-ordained and thus not free.

You know if Omnipotent is so important to alot of those Christians, then why is it only found in the last book of the new testament and only in one verse and at the end of that verse.
In the book of Revelation 19:6, is the only place in the whole bible is this word
( Omnipotent ) to be found.
Where it's not found in no other place in the Bible.

But yet if person listen to those so called Christians, I call them so called Christians because they go by what their Pastor's will tell them, without checking it out first to make sure what they are told is right, No they just pick it up and off running they go, If a person listen to them they would have a person believing Omnipotent is found throughout the bible.unto which it is not, but only found in the last book of the Bible in the book of Revelation 19:6 and no where else. If it that important as those Christians would have people to believe, then why is it not found throughout the Bible, instead in only the last book of the Bible, in Revelation and only in one chapter and in only one verse and at the end of that verse ?

If you were to go the Greek translation of the word ( Omnipotent) a person would find what Omnipotent stands to mean.

In the Strong's Concordance, in the Greek translation 3841, Omnipotent means---
--- The all ruling God as absolute and universal, sovereign -- Almighty , Omnipotent in power, strength,Dominion.

If you notice nothing about being all knowing.
Just that God as absolute,universal,sovereign power, strength,Dominion ruling Almighty God.

But nothing about being all knowing.

 

[syo]

of course God is omniscient. he knows his creations best.

 

[Sleeppy]

#Post #9. @Faithofchristian

Respond?

 

[Faithofchristian]

of course God is omniscient. he knows his creations best.

There is no where throughout the Bible that says that God as being omniscient, as being all knowing.
You will not even find the word (omniscient) throughout the whole bible.

 

[1213]

Sure.

1 Samuel 15:11
"I regret that I have made Saul king, because he has turned away from me and has not carried out my instructions." Samuel was angry, and he cried out to the LORD all that night.

Genesis 6:6
The LORD regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled.
​

Personal regret indicates a reaction to something one did...
.

Thank you, I though you don’t have such scripture, but good to be sure. "I regret" is not same as saying “I have made a mistake”.

And actually, it is possible to regret things that are good, or at least not bad. For example, freedom is good, even though many people use it for evil. Still, it would be good to give freedom.

 

[syo]

There is no where throughout the Bible that says that God as being omniscient, as being all knowing.
You will not even find the word (omniscient) throughout the whole bible.

''omniscient'' isn't actually directly in the bible. it's more of an understanding.