How are these Great Beings explained?

[Vinayaka]

Of course there is a connection. The expression and encouragement of hate speech is linked to gratuitous acts of violence on ethnic and/or religious groups.

But that wasn't hate speech. That's the difference. It's a person's disagreeing with something in a not-so-polite manner. It's an Indian thing. That's the culture there .. to be blunt. I know, because I've had to get use to it here. Perhaps in new Zealand, you live in a polite culture like I do in Canada. Heck, I find Americans rude.

(Don't say I didn't warn you, lol. I've had heated exchanges with my friend from Delhi as well, on other topics.)

 

[TransmutingSoul]

In other words, if I say I disagree, it's negation, but when you say something, anything at ll, it's positive affirmation. Good versus bad. Got it.

If you have got it well done. But that is not my thoughts you have offered, they were yours.

Personally I am still far from learning a lot about this subject, that is why I like to discuss it.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So, if you are divine also, then why pledge allegiance to Baha'u'llah? That would seem unnecessary since you have the tools to realise it yourself.

The Great beings are the God Given Sources, all we will ever know about God, they are our cause.

We have no direct link to God, the Great Beings being the Suns held in place by the Universal Attractive Force. God is outside this

Image is attributre, not essence. We can not be God. Even the Great Beings can not be God. They in our reality, are God to us.

I would adsume this is why Krishna has become know as God, likewise why Christ has become known as God. It is not wrong to see it thay way as long as we understand that God is Greater than what we can know.

Christ said why call me good there is none good but God.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

If you have got it well done. But that is not my thoughts you have offered, they were yours.

Personally I am still far from learning a lot about this subject, that is why I like to discuss it.

Do you really? Sound like a negating of what I had to say. I'll have to report you to the negativity police.

I do not have 'it'. But one of the basic teachings of Hinduism is at the core we're divine. Atman is Brahman. Jiva |(the soul) becomes Siva. Thou art That. It's throughout the Upanishads, and almost all scriptures that deal with our true Nature. There is nothing that isn't God. From this we get 'God is absolutely knowable, not forever separate.' Those ancient advaitic monistic truths (non-Hindus would say beliefs) of Hinduism are as valid today as they were 5000 years ago. Also why we consider Hinduism both a modern and an absolutely ancient faith. But of course that stuff isn't very practical for how a person lives his/her day to day life. For that we have more practical scriptures and age-old wisdom, suggesting ahimsa as a practice for example.

But you didn't answer my question. If this is all there, then why do you need Baha'u'llah? (editted ... I see you did try. That post wasn't there when I wrote this.)

For Hindus like myself, we do believe we need a Guru. We believe in that wisdom. But all we need is any qualified Guru, and they are many. We don't need one particular Guru. The Guru is a helper just as a dance teacher is necessary if you ever want to be really skilled at dance. If you want to be really skilled at spirituality, the Guru can help a ton. Deceased Gurus can't help on that personal level.

 

[Vinayaka]

We have no direct link to God,

And that, my friend, is one of many many essential differences between Abrahamic and Dharmic paradigms. Each morning, in ancient tried and true ritual, known to work, having worked for thousands of years, I beseech God to enter my home, and my heart, so that I can perform my duty with God in mind, diligently and in earnest. That my friend, is the essence of temple and home ritual called puja.

 

[Vinayaka]

Over 100 000 views. Not bad, LH. Not bad.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

And that, my friend, is one of many many essential differences between Abrahamic and Dharmic paradigms. Each morning, in ancient tried and true ritual, known to work, having worked for thousands of years, I beseech God to enter my home, and my heart, so that I can perform my duty with God in mind, diligently and in earnest. That my friend, is the essence of temple and home ritual called puja.

"I beseech God to enter my home, and my heart, so that I can perform my duty with God in mind, diligently and in earnest."

We share the same prayer with you, it is a great prayer.

This is also a prayer I could hear each Sunday in a Christian Church and do nearly word for word, they also ask it for all peoples.

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

But that wasn't hate speech. That's the difference. It's a person's disagreeing with something in a not-so-polite manner. It's an Indian thing. That's the culture there .. to be blunt. I know, because I've had to get use to it here. Perhaps in new Zealand, you live in a polite culture like I do in Canada. Heck, I find Americans rude.

(Don't say I didn't warn you, lol. I've had heated exchanges with my friend from Delhi as well, on other topics.)

If calling a religion an 'incurable disease' isn't hate speech, then what is? I don't see it as disagreeing at all. I suppose if you indulge in this kind of language enough it all becomes quite normal. It isn't.

Hate speech is speech which attacks a person or group on the basis of attributes such as race, religion, ethnic origin, sexual orientation, disability, or gender. In the law of some countries, hate speech is described as speech, gesture or conduct, writing, or display which is forbidden because it incites violence or prejudicial action against a protected group, or individual on the basis of their membership of the group, or because it disparages or intimidates a protected group, or individual on the basis of their membership of the group. The law may identify a protected group by certain characteristics. In some countries, hate speech is not a legal term and in some it is constitutionally protected.

Hate speech - Wikipedia

 

[Vinayaka]

"I beseech God to enter my home, and my heart, so that I can perform my duty with God in mind, diligently and in earnest."

Please read this Puja (Hinduism) - Wikipedia and let me know if you do the same, or see such a ceremony on Christian churches. I though you guys were against idol worship.

 

[Vinayaka]

If calling a religion an 'incurable disease' isn't hate speech, then what is? I don't see it as disagreeing at all. I suppose if you indulge in this kind of language enough it all becomes quite normal. It isn't.

Hate speech is speech which attacks a person or group on the basis of attributes such as race, religion, ethnic origin, sexual orientation, disability, or gender. In the law of some countries, hate speech is described as speech, gesture or conduct, writing, or display which is forbidden because it incites violence or prejudicial action against a protected group, or individual on the basis of their membership of the group, or because it disparages or intimidates a protected group, or individual on the basis of their membership of the group. The law may identify a protected group by certain characteristics. In some countries, hate speech is not a legal term and in some it is constitutionally protected.

Hate speech - Wikipedia

Yes, Aup will be Aup. He has a flair for it. It used to bother me too.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Yes, Aup will be Aup. He has a flair for it. It used to bother me too.

Now you encourage him and like his posts lol.If you can't beat him, join him.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Yes, Aup will be Aup. He has a flair for it. It used to bother me too.

Perhaps you are an enabler.

Are You Empowering or Enabling?

 

[Vinayaka]

Now you encourage him and like his posts lol.If you can't beat him, join him.

I'm not encouraging him. I agree with his points but not his manner of expressing it. Some days we have to read past the manners to try to understand a person's point. I have to read between the lines on this thread all the time to try to understand what some Baha'is are saying.

And, no, I hope I don't join in his manners any time soon. But some days, as you would know with certain patients or relatives visiting patients, being blunt is a necessary step, just to communicate. Feel free to report his manner to mods, or put him on ignore. That's your right.

 

[Vinayaka]

Perhaps you are an enabler.

Are You Empowering or Enabling?

Feel free to put me on ignore too, if you wish. It's not that hard.

 

[siti]

I found a book written by the Baha'i scholar Mirza Abu'l-Fadl Gulpaygani.
It is however in Persian, and I found a copy of it online. In its page 97, he refers to the 2300 days prophecy.
The book is called

• Risalih Ayyubiyyih (Treatise addressed to Ayyub): Written in 1887, concerning prophecies relating to the Promised One in the Torah. (Wikipedia)

https://www.h-net.org/~bahai/areprint/authors/gulpaygani/AbulFadl_Risalih_Ayyubiyih_typed.pdf

Excellent! I am really grateful to you and @Tony Bristow-Stagg for taking the time to search this out. I am unable to read Persian at all so I am completely dependent on your skills here. But from what I can read of Gulpaygani, and brief descriptions of these texts, he was interpreting the prophecies of Islam, Christianity and Judaism rather than the Bab's and Baha'u'llah's writings? It seems also not be a very long book - I wonder why - especially since it is obviously in the public domain - it has not been translated in English yet? One would have thought given the Baha'i goal of unifying religion, tying these prophecies together so clearly would have been a key goal?

Anyway, all that said, it doesn't change my argument too much - what we now have is an unquestionably learned scholar interpreting the prophecies of the Abrahamic faiths and apparently matching them to the appearance of the Bab (I presume that is explicit in his interpretations?) - something that neither the Bab, Baha'u'llah or Abdu'l Baha had managed to do before him.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Please read this Puja (Hinduism) - Wikipedia and let me know if you do the same, or see such a ceremony on Christian churches. I though you guys were against idol worship.

The Prayer Vinayaka, not the rituals. The prayer from the heart.

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

Feel free to put me on ignore too, if you wish. It's not that hard.

That would be an extreme action and I try to be moderate as my religion teaches. I am happy to talk to you and Aup but calling us an incurable disease or cult is not helpful to anyone.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Excellent! I am really grateful to you and @Tony Bristow-Stagg for taking the time to search this out. I am unable to read Persian at all so I am completely dependent on your skills here. But from what I can read of Gulpaygani, and brief descriptions of these texts, he was interpreting the prophecies of Islam, Christianity and Judaism rather than the Bab's and Baha'u'llah's writings? It seems also not be a very long book - I wonder why - especially since it is obviously in the public domain - it has not been translated in English yet? One would have thought given the Baha'i goal of unifying religion, tying these prophecies together so clearly would have been a key goal?

Anyway, all that said, it doesn't change my argument too much - what we now have is an unquestionably learned scholar interpreting the prophecies of the Abrahamic faiths and apparently matching them to the appearance of the Bab (I presume that is explicit in his interpretations?) - something that neither the Bab, Baha'u'llah or Abdu'l Baha had managed to do before him.

They did not need to they are the Fulfillment of all the Prophecy. The Prophecy was Written because of them.

But Baha'u'llah made it clear He was the One foretold by all Religions of the past;

"Beware lest thou barter away this sublime station… Beware lest thy sovereignty withhold thee from Him Who is the Supreme Sovereign. He, verily, is come with His Kingdom, and all the atoms cry aloud: ‘Lo! The Lord is come in His great majesty!’ He Who is the Father is come, and the Son (Jesus), in the holy vale, crieth out: ‘Here am I, here am I, O Lord, My God!’ whilst Sinai circleth round the House, and the Burning Bush calleth aloud: ‘The All-Bounteous is come mounted upon the clouds!.....I, verily, have not sought to extol Mine Own Self, but rather God Himself were ye to judge fairly. Naught can be seen in Me except God and His Cause, could ye but perceive it. I am the One Whom the tongue of Isaiah hath extolled, the One with Whose name both the Torah and the Evangel were adorned…. Blessed be the king whose sovereignty hath withheld him not from his Sovereign, and who hath turned unto God with his heart....."

It is all in these Tablets to the Kings and Rulers.

The Summons of the Lord of Hosts | Bahá’í Reference Library

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

You seem happy not being a member of any religion. Why change?

Those are two different beasts. Check their numbers of crowns and horns, in each case is differrent.
The beast that was explained by Abdulbaha was Umayids.
The Umayids was there before Muhammad's mission began. But it considered the beast only when he started to oppose Religion of God.
The beast that lived for 1260 years, would include all the later False Islams after Umayids, such as Abbasids. It's duration is counted till the Manifestation of the Bab, because Once He appeared, He revived True Religion again.
It is like, cycle of Night. It only continues till the Morning. The Bab was the Sun that appeared after the darkness. Once He appeared He established True Religion, which is Light, and the Beast which was as darkness, gone.

What year did the Ummayads begin and what year did they end?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Excellent! I am really grateful to you and @Tony Bristow-Stagg for taking the time to search this out. I am unable to read Persian at all so I am completely dependent on your skills here. But from what I can read of Gulpaygani, and brief descriptions of these texts, he was interpreting the prophecies of Islam, Christianity and Judaism rather than the Bab's and Baha'u'llah's writings?

.

That is right.

.

It seems also not be a very long book - I wonder why - especially since it is obviously in the public domain - it has not been translated in English yet?

.

Some of the works of Mirza Abulfazl has been translated.
But it is upto people to translate them. If I had the time I would.


.

One would have thought given the Baha'i goal of unifying religion, tying these prophecies together so clearly would have been a key goal?

.

I am not sure. Baha'i Faith has the goal of uniting mankind by teaching ethics in my understanding.
To tell you the truth, in my opinion, perhaps majority of the Baha'is are not aware or even concerned about prophecies of old Books. What you see on the internet is not a very typical way of teaching Baha'i Faith. The Baha'is focus on teaching ethics. They have certain universal classes or gatherings to read books on topics such as serving humanity, education, history of the faith, etc.

.

Anyway, all that said, it doesn't change my argument too much - what we now have is an unquestionably learned scholar interpreting the prophecies of the Abrahamic faiths and apparently matching them to the appearance of the Bab (I presume that is explicit in his interpretations?) - something that neither the Bab, Baha'u'llah or Abdu'l Baha had managed to do before him.

Here we need a little more understanding of the history of the Baha'i Faith.
It all began in Persia, a country which at the time and even now is a Shia majority.
In Shia Islam as well as Sunni Islam, there are prophecies about Promised one of Islam, called the Qaim or Mahdi. The number of these Prophecies as recorded in Islamic Traditions, without exaggerating are several thousands. Giving a great amount of details of the events that would comes to pass at the time of Manifestations. If we are talking about prophecies, to these people Mahdi of Islam was important. When the Bab appeared, He wrote many verses, a main portion of them in the style of Quran, while in a fairly fast speed. Many of these verses were allusions and explanation of Prophecies of Mahdi. His argument was also this: I was trained as Merchant, and did not have education in Arabic or religion, and that God had told you in the Quran no body can bring verses like Quran. Now since I can, these must be Revelations from God. Of course this is a very brief summary. But the point is to know Islam itself has a great number of Prophecies and the main audience of the Bab were Muslims. The Bab however had appeared to have a main purpose of His Revelation: He constantly was making His followers ready for another Person to appear after Himself Who is a Greater Being, and He referred to Him as Whom God shall make manifest. Briefly, by the time Bahaullah declared He was that Promised One to the Followers of the Bab, already 19 years had pass from declaration of the Bab, and about 13 years from execution of the Bab, and at the time Bahaullah declared, they were all exiled out of Persia. Now again the point is, the Audience of Bahaullah at that time were the Bab'is who expected the Promised One of the Bab.
This was year 1863.
Now, during 1856 to 1863, the Mission of Bahaullah was firstly to teach new ethics to the Bab's who grew out of Islam with ideas of Holy War, while Bahaullah was creating a new community that is peaceful, and ethical. Also in those days, Bahaullah was writing some Books still proving that the Bab was the fulfilment of Islam. This was required because many of them were questioning how can the Bab be the Qaim and yet they killed Him.
Once this period passed, Bahaullah declared He is the Promised One of the Bab. Now, at this Time, Bahaullah also was dealing through new Writings how He is fulfilment of the Bab based on the Scriptures of the Bab.
My point of giving this brief history is to show, the revelation of the Bab and Bahaullah had to go step by step, and Their writings as far as related to Prophecies were prioritized based on Their Audiences and their Questions. Thus the need to go through details of the Biblical Prophecies were not really urgent because Their immediate Audiences required or requested things related to Islam and then the Bab'i Faith.