How are these Great Beings explained?

[Unveiled Artist]

An interpretarion is given that does not reflect the intent of Baha'u'llah or of His Message, it reflects the intent of the poster.

Regards Tony

Is it invalid because it expresses the intent of the poster?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

We put our own ideas above Gods.

We become lovers of self by thinking all the good we do comes from our own human self.

Regards Tony

Would The Buddha's Dhamma be false because The Buddha taught in all his suttas that enlightenment comes from our own self?

 

[Vinayaka]

Is it invalid because it expresses the intent of the poster?

Doesn't every single post on here reflect the intent of the poster?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Doesn't every single post on here reflect the intent of the poster?

Haha. Good point.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Bahai is a color of the flower not the gardner that tends the garden. The garden exists because of individual flowers.

The garden isnt the key here. It doesnt exist separately as something "greater." Its just a label.

Bahauallah cannot define the nature of the label anymore than a christian. While its fine to believe we succeed more if we are a garden others know that we dont need a garden to plant healthy flowers.

Different perspective. To unify it or bring a new system, we all need to be on the same page. Unity is not diversity.

One truth. One progession. One god. Is not a diverse foundation. Even bahai scripture makes diversity (differences) secondary. I posted it for Tony, I think earlier.

It doesnt mean its morally wrong. To say youre right is not rude its just being hoest.

If I were a christian trinitarian, how would it benefit me to say my belief is false (or outdated), offering bahallah solution, then saying I can keep my belief but belittling it as colors and not the garden?

LH, I hope you've been careful to not 'add' beliefs that are contradictory to each other.

Ha! Ha! Yes true!

 

[loverofhumanity]

That's true for many religions, but is it true for the religions that actually want to be the one religion left on this planet, by means of conversion? If we all became evangelical Christians, for example, do you really think the world would be a better place? Wouldn't there still be lots of in-fighting?

My humble understanding is for instance if everyone became a fairly sincere Saivite Hindu then the world would not be in need of any other religion. So it comes down to really how well the followers can carry out their teachings. But just about every religion has truth and enough to be able to solve all the worlds problems if the majority of their followers put it into practice.

That has been the problem all along not so much that the teachings are inadequate but the followers not living up to them. That includes us of course.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Indeed we don't know for certain how old she was - its possible she may have been as young as six but there seems to be fairly clear evidence that she had not reached puberty when she was married - early Muslim scholars (not long after Muhammad's time) apparently went to some lengths to make it clear that although she was unquestionably (even by their standards) still a child at marriage, she had reached puberty (although she might still have been as young as 9 or 10) when the marriage was consummated. I don't think it is a great surprise that having been both indoctrinated and impregnated by the charismatic leader of a new and rapidly growing religion before reaching the teenage years, she found herself in exemplary 'submission' to the will of Allah. Do you? Culture aside, don't you think an actual "Manifestation of God" ought to have known better - even if it wasn't part of the revelation to the rest of humanity in that age?

Anyway, as usual, your apologetics miss the point which was not to condemn 7th century Arabic/Islamic culture but to illustrate that it is paradoxical (given Baha'i religious heritage) for a Baha'i to dismiss another religion on the grounds that its marriage customs seem a little off beam.

I think you are going nowhere with trying to attribute psychiatric causes to established religious leaders, including Baha'u'llah, so you are finding something else to have a poke at.

We were pursuing your 'delusion' of religious leaders line of thought and you asked me about the Messianic claims of the Unification Church leader. I expressed my disinterest. You accused me of having double standards because I hadn't investigated them. I indicated that their Blessing ceremonies and their being yet another exclusive Christian sect was sufficient investigation. You use this as an excuse to raise questions about Baha'u'llah and Muhammad's integrity given they had more than one wife. I've explained about this being common place and the norm through many cultures including within Judaism and Christianity.

The marriage customs of the Unification Church seem more than a little off beam and appear to be without precedent in history. However I'm far more concerned about the many fundamentalist Christian groups that are considered mainstream, yet make claims that only through their sect of Christianity can we be saved, and isolate themselves from family and former friends that are not interested in such nonsense.

 

[Vinayaka]

My humble understanding is for instance if everyone became a fairly sincere Saivite Hindu then the world would not be in need of any other religion. So it comes down to really how well the followers can carry out their teachings. But just about every religion has truth and enough to be able to solve all the worlds problems if the majority of their followers put it into practice.

That has been the problem all along not so much that the teachings are inadequate but the followers not living up to them. That includes us of course.

I don't think it'll ever happen that all the embodied souls all become one faith. We're just way too diverse for that. People have differing needs, and from the Hindu POV, are at different stages of the soul's evolution. Would a teacher teach the exact same class to all grades, K through 12?

I wouldn't wish Saivite Hinduism on anyone. It's way too demanding.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Were they really though? Do you really think that all the religions are wide enough in their scope to encompass the diversity of mankind? Perhaps the Bab didn't get around enough to see this diversity. Perhaps he was just looking at life in a 200 mile radius in Iran.

Many people, no matter which religion you pick to become universal, would have to change there ways rather dramatically. Don't you think it would have been much much easier just to accept faiths the way they are?

I don’t think so. If all the people for instance carried out the principle of ahimsa then we wouldn’t have wars and a lot of other problems such as substance abuses. Anything which is any form of abuse on the body or humanity would be lessened or eliminated. The same with love. If everyone loved one another then wars and evil things would not exist.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

My humble understanding is for instance if everyone became a fairly sincere Saivite Hindu then the world would not be in need of any other religion. So it comes down to really how well the followers can carry out their teachings. But just about every religion has truth and enough to be able to solve all the worlds problems if the majority of their followers put it into practice.

That has been the problem all along not so much that the teachings are inadequate but the followers not living up to them. That includes us of course.

Therefore our focus would be helping people follow their own teachings rather than a new system designed for diversity to follow a unified system contradicting half of our beliefs?

 

[loverofhumanity]

I don't think it'll ever happen that all the embodied souls all become one faith. We're just way too diverse for that. People have differing needs, and from the Hindu POV, are at different stages of the soul's evolution. Would a teacher teach the exact same class to all grades, K through 12?

I wouldn't wish Saivite Hinduism on anyone. It's way too demanding.

If everyone was spiritually advanced we wouldn’t have the problems we have now. I think that’s the main point here.

 

[Dawnofhope]

You have one foundation/god/elephant. By definition, the foundation cannot Also be hindu beliefs/christian beliefs/ the ear, eye, and trunk of the elephant.

If the latter, you have to believe more than one type of god while believing in god at the same time. The former, you can believe any of these things because they come from the same source.

Bahai believes the latter. I believe the former.

How are they both right?

That's exactly the scenario that the elephant parable raises. We have all these different Faith communities with their contradictory beliefs that have been existing in relative isolation from each other because of geography and time. Yet we are increasingly brought into closer and closer association with each other despite our differences. We share the same ultimate reality whether it be in the phenomenal or unseen realm and so we are increasingly confronted with Faith adherents who hold apparently disparate worldviews yet live lives worthy of admiration. What seems clear to one eludes another. That is because we experience different aspects of the one reality symbolised by the elephant.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Therefore our focus would be helping people follow their own teachings rather than a new system designed for diversity to follow a unified system contradicting half of our beliefs?

I think we would have to extricate ourselves from this system based upon materialism and consumerism or establish a spiritual one based on virtues if we want to help people follow their teachings. Under the current system people are being drawn away from religion.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

That's exactly the scenario that the elephant parable raises. We have all these different Faith communities with their contradictory beliefs that have been existing in relative isolation from each other because of geography and time. Yet we are increasingly brought into closer and closer association with each other despite our differences. We share the same ultimate reality whether it be in the phenomenal or unseen realm and so we are increasingly confronted with Faith adherents who hold apparently disparate worldviews yet live lives worthy of admiration. What seems clear to one eludes another. That is because we experience different aspects of the one reality symbolised by the elephant.

Your position says many parts are part of one foundation. There is no issue. No one reality. No one awareness.

That is were we differ in Foundations not by adjectives describing one thing, especially god.

How can it be both?

Not a problem. Just a question of anaylsis.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I think we would have to extricate ourselves from this system based upon materialism and consumerism or establish a spiritual one based on virtues if we want to help people follow their teachings. Under the current system people are being drawn away from religion.

We are all under different spiritual systems that are separate truths "in and of themselves."

Under my current system, I am drawn to religion. I ask, though, how am I wrong? What behaviors like rape and crime applies to me that make me follow a religion leading me away from its "true" teachings Im blind of?​

@loverofhumanity

In this question I use me to mean individual people who make up humanity. Like you and I, we have potientional, if not already to commit crimes like murder and rape. Hypothetically....only.....the way to solve this is to help Us individually towards our current faith.

A Jewish rapist we see on the news does not need a new systm any more than a hindu murderer. We are not isolated from other persons crimes. We commit wrong deeds of our own.

We can either help people in their own faith or make a new system for all people. This new system works for bahai but not the rest of the world. To understand that shows empathy and to see it in other shoes and how it affects others is called unconditional love.

I personally cannot follow bahai, catholicism, and other evangalistic faiths because we need to address ourselves and help others on an individual level. While anyone can believe god can save the day, most hindu, jewish, buddhist, and muslim person would put bahaullah as a manifestation or teacher in their faith.

It draws them away from it to do this.

 

[siti]

I think you are going nowhere with trying to attribute psychiatric causes to established religious leaders, including Baha'u'llah, so you are finding something else to have a poke at.

Oh do you? Who brought marriage customs into the conversation? Anyway, you're right - let's get back on track...

We were pursuing your 'delusion' of religious leaders line of thought and you asked me about the Messianic claims of the Unification Church leader.

So what do you think about the Messianic claims of the Reverend Moon? So far we have established that you believe he was 'mistaken' and the only grounds you have given is that he thinks he is the only one that is (currently) right - although he traces his thought back through Jesus, Moses etc. - some of the very same "Great Beings" that Baha'u'llah followed after and believed that he was anointed to complete the 'unification' mission that Christ initiated 2000 years ago - something which Baha'u'llah also claimed. So the as-yet-unanswered question still remains. How could someone be so utterly 'mistaken' about their identity as a Messiah or Manifestation of God? How could the Rev. Moon think he was the Messiah when he was not? How could Muhammad fail to recognize that he was a divine Manifestation when - if Baha'u'llah is correct that is exactly what he was?

 

[loverofhumanity]

We are all under different spiritual systems that are separate truths "in and of themselves."

Under my current system, I am drawn to religion. I ask, though, how am I wrong? What behaviors like rape and crime applies to me that make me follow a religion leading me away from its "true" teachings Im blind of?

If you are following your religion and drawn to it then that’s wonderful. The aim is to attract humanity towards spiritual and virtuous behavior.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I don't view beliefs as true or false. They're just beliefs. I think this attitude reduces disagreement and emotion. Besides that,. I actually believe that there is no absolute true or false in beliefs.

But you do consider the beliefs from the perspective of truth too and you do it very well. Consider the statement made by one of my friends stipulating that Krishna was the founder of Hinduism. You simply informed us that it wasn't true and no Hindu believed that. So you were right and we were wrong. Nothing wrong with that. You corrected us and it was an opportunity to learn.

You like Nissan, I like Toyota. So what? To spend energy on the dispute is, in my view, not productive, or conducive. It goes in circles, and leads nowhere. Better just to accept that difference as part of the Lord's dance and move on.

I'm actually really happy with my belief and yours. We have differences of opinion, for certain. You have raised far more concerns and criticisms about the Baha'i Faith than I have about Hinduism IMHO. I'm good with accepting the Lord's dance and moving on. But like you, I will happily defend my faith too.

Would you want to endlessly argue with a spouse over your and her favorite restaurant (if they differed)?

I agree.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Oh do you? Who brought marriage customs into the conversation? Anyway, you're right - let's get back on track...

So what do you think about the Messianic claims of the Reverend Moon? So far we have established that you believe he was 'mistaken' and the only grounds you have given is that he thinks he is the only one that is (currently) right - although he traces his thought back through Jesus, Moses etc. - some of the very same "Great Beings" that Baha'u'llah followed after and believed that he was anointed to complete the 'unification' mission that Christ initiated 2000 years ago - something which Baha'u'llah also claimed. So the as-yet-unanswered question still remains. How could someone be so utterly 'mistaken' about their identity as a Messiah or Manifestation of God? How could the Rev. Moon think he was the Messiah when he was not? How could Muhammad fail to recognize that he was a divine Manifestation when - if Baha'u'llah is correct that is exactly what he was?

Great.

Lets step back and consider the Jewish Messianic claimants. I believe only one person fulfilled prophecy in the OT and His name was Jesus of Nazareth.

List of Jewish messiah claimants - Wikipedia

Clearly there were many others that stepped up. One of those was Simon bar Kokhba in the second century.

Simon bar Kokhba (Hebrew: שמעון בר כוכבא‎; died 135 CE), born Simon ben Kosevah, was the leader of what is known as the Bar Kokhba revolt against the Roman Empire in 132 CE, establishing an independent Jewish state which he ruled for three years as Nasi ("Prince"). His state was conquered by the Romans in 135 following a two and half-year war

Simon bar Kokhba - Wikipedia

He met the expectations for the Jews to be a Messiah like King David that would free them from the oppression of the Romans. The only problem was, it failed miserably. Why did he make such a claim? Probably egotism, or in modern psychiatric language, narcissism.

Fast forward two thousand years and we have an impressive list of claimants to be the Return of Christ.

List of people claimed to be Jesus - Wikipedia

Amongst them 'Moon has said that when he was fifteen years old Jesus anointed him to carry out his unfinished work by becoming parent to all of humanity'

Sun Myung Moon - Wikipedia

I've expressed why I reject his messianic claims. I suspect egotism was at play here. I don't think he was psychotic. Was he deliberately lying? Maybe an element of self deceit and misleading others. He was convicted of fraud after all. A much more important aspect IMHO is that he was self-intoxicated by the promptings of his own ego and passions as we all can be.

We could consider other's criticisms of his claims.

Sun Myung Moon - Wikipedia

I know you don't believe he was the messiah. Why not in your opinion?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

If you are following your religion and drawn to it then that’s wonderful. The aim is to attract humanity towards spiritual and virtuous behavior.

How do you separate me from the rest of humanity that need a system to follow their own belief system?

If the problem is the people, religions like Buddhism and Hinduism does not need to point to the abrahamic god in order for people to follow the currect religion That encourages them towards their faith not away from it.