How are these Great Beings explained?

[TransmutingSoul]

Thank you. This next question is more personal. I wont get offended I just dont like generalizations.

Am I incompetent because I failed to see the universal nature of all religions together?

Carlita our Faith, our heart is always a Gift, we are all incompetent.

I do hesitate to give the answer, but there is a specific passage that came to mind and I will offer it so we avoid the generalization;

“...Be thankful to God for having enabled you to recognise His Cause. Whoever has received this blessing must, prior to his acceptance, have performed some deed which, though he himself was unaware of its character, was ordained by God as a means whereby he has been guided to find and embrace the Truth. As to those who have remained deprived of such a blessing, their acts alone have hindered them from recognising the truth of this Revelation." Bahá'í Reference Library - The Dawn-Breakers: Nabíl’s Narrative of the Early Days of the Bahá’í Revelation, Pages 582-595

It is a challenging passage and I find it interesting.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

AS this thread has proceeded I have changed from the bloke who just thought Bahai was an oddball religion into a surprised person who began to see masses more irregularities than before, then on, into a trusting heart that is certain that our kids will just dismiss this all. No need to do anything more.

You have definitely made many irregularities for yourself.

I will not offer a correction

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

Since the sacrificial laws were repealed 2000 years ago, and if there could be a few repeals of the remaining 507, the Mosiac laws beat the Bahai laws hollow.

If you demonstrated that you understood the Baha'i teachings and principles by presenting them in a more fair and balanced way even though you don't believe in it, that statement would sound more meaningful.

Where has Bahai got poor-law legislation to match the Mosaic laws? None, probably because their Greatr Beings were so wealthy in riches, status and position?

How about Huququ'llah.

Huqúqu'lláh - Wikipedia

Yes, the Mosaic laws would need a lot of editing to fit with today's needs, but there is not one that did not either, strengthen, make successful, more cohesive, more social, more healthy for the whole people.

The problem is you are talking about it in the context of a Western liberal sexual values that Moses clearly never intended.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Yes. We agree. Im "debating" with you. Im challenging you to think of more than one truth as individual parts with no reference to the whole "as a foundation."

That is the only way you can really understand me. Its not intellect. My analogies, well ours, are easy to understandnin context. If I asked you to consider the bulk of the elephant is Only defined by its indivisual parts, that would leave you wondering how all the pieces fit together. While Im curious why a Christian believes my trunk is his while feeling an ear, we both agree we arent experiencing the same reality. Our conclusions are differnent.

Bahai doesnt see that because the conclusions are based on one foundation (god); cant divide god into parts. The best to discribe it is take the elaphant apart by limb. Once separated, he is no longer we call an elaphant. The elephant can only be defined by its parts.

Making it a whole is an illusion. It sees an elephant as its own entity "and" rather than instead of a collection of parts.

What is an elephant separate from its parts (since you used the word And)?

Would you clarify that please. I didn't follow you at all. Thanks.

 

[oldbadger]

You have definitely made many irregularities for yourself.

Nope, I never made them up, I saw them clear as day.

I will not offer a correction

Regards Tony

Oh come on! You haven't got an answer to offer.

The only one true Great Being that I can see wherever I look is Goddess of all. I call Her Goddess because I'm used to calling Her Mother Nature. Her rules are wonderful and terrible, her presence cannot be doubted or refuted. Her laws apply to everything that is.
Anyway, I thought that Bahai likes Sovereigns? Well, there is one, and She doesn't bow to anything else.

Have you ever thought ......... whooops, I just remembered that RF rule...................

 

[oldbadger]

If you demonstrated that you understood the Baha'i teachings and principles by presenting them in a more fair and balanced way even though you don't believe in it, that statement would sound more meaningful.

How about Huququ'llah.

Huqúqu'lláh - Wikipedia

I need to read the above and get back to you.

The problem is you are talking about it in the context of a Western liberal sexual values that Moses clearly never intended.

No I'm not.............. Moses was quite clear about his laws and their impact upon the sexuality of the people.
And the Mosaic laws were much much more relaxed than Bahai over many sexual issues, as briefly described.

And sexual abominations were all connected with actions which could wipe out whole masses of folks very quickly...... so laws were layed down to keep the Israelites strong, healthy and successful.

Those risks are somewhat reduced since Gay marriage is a closed partnership as safe as Hetero-marriage and we don't need the children.

You haven't even touched upon Female homosexual marriage, or bisexuality, or polyamory, the latter of course which was practiced by Bahauallah, after the Bab's laws were revealed. Wow!

I'll read the writings about providence for the poor and get back later.

 

[Vinayaka]

We were talking about beliefs that are true or not.

The difference between medicine and religion is that only a few can get to practice medicine because the standard is so high to gain a place in medical school and there are limited places available.

I don't view beliefs as true or false. They're just beliefs. I think this attitude reduces disagreement and emotion. Besides that,. I actually believe that there is no absolute true or false in beliefs. You like Nissan, I like Toyota. So what? To spend energy on the dispute is, in my view, not productive, or conducive. It goes in circles, and leads nowhere. Better just to accept that difference as part of the Lord's dance and move on. Would you want to endlessly argue with a spouse over your and her favorite restaurant (if they differed)?

As for the medicine/religion analogy, I was just countering the idea that teachers (not talking about devotees, or just ordinary folks like you and me) are also true or false. From that mindset, there is one teacher, and the rest are false. From my view, it's a continuum, as it is with professors, with adherents, etc. I don't believe that there is one guy who is infallible, and the rest of us fallible. But again, that's just my belief. Other people differ obviously.

 

[Vinayaka]

Baha'u'llah suffered great. He was tortured, imprisoned in the most inhumane conditions and banished from His homeland. He bore all these afflictions with love and serenity. He consented to be in chains and fetters so we could live in freedom.

In South Sudan, 1.5 million people are in danger of dying of starvation. I can bet there are a few who are bucking it up, cheering up others in their camp, providing spiritual nourishment, and more. I don't think what happened to your prophet is anything all that special. In fact, back then, I suspect it was rather common.

I just don't see the jump from those situations to saying we can live in freedom because of it. I don't see how that one situation leads to ours. Are you suggesting that if he hadn't done that. we'd all be not living in freedom? Certainly most would view that as folly. There are millions of other events that contributed to the relative freedom humanity has today.

 

[Vinayaka]

“In the Bayan the Báb says that every religion of the past was fit to become universal.
(Shoghi Effendi)

Were they really though? Do you really think that all the religions are wide enough in their scope to encompass the diversity of mankind? Perhaps the Bab didn't get around enough to see this diversity. Perhaps he was just looking at life in a 200 mile radius in Iran.

Many people, no matter which religion you pick to become universal, would have to change there ways rather dramatically. Don't you think it would have been much much easier just to accept faiths the way they are?

 

[Vinayaka]

If every religionists follows his/her religion as sincerely as he/she can I believe the world will be a much better place.

That's true for many religions, but is it true for the religions that actually want to be the one religion left on this planet, by means of conversion? If we all became evangelical Christians, for example, do you really think the world would be a better place? Wouldn't there still be lots of in-fighting?

 

[Vinayaka]

Its best use in the East would be to consider the progress from Hinduism to Buddhism.

Really now? Hindus didn't see that as progress at all. I saw it as an offshoot that suited the needs of many. When something new develops as a slightly different alternative, it's good, because it fills a need for certain souls. That's not really a progression. But i understand also why you would think it is, as 'progressive' is part of your central doctrine. I think 'alternative' would be a far better, and more accurate word.

The same process is there today within Sanatana Dharma. A new teacher (Guru) comes along and many people like the teaching, and a new sect develops. At the same time, many don't see a need to change, and stick with the tried and true. It's a continuous process.

 

[Vinayaka]

Is replace the proper word?

I have added the Buddha’s teachings to my beliefs and kept my former beliefs in Jesus as well as other religions which I didn’t believe in before. So I have added not really replaced.

LH, I hope you've been careful to not 'add' beliefs that are contradictory to each other.

 

[Vinayaka]

Hello....
It could be worse than that.
I seem to remember that it was the Bab who ordered a minimum of two wives, and Bahauallah joined that religion. At a later date he broke the Babi rule/law. The more I look the more mess I see.

Here's more for you. Effendi had no will, despite his 2 precursors suggesting every man should have one. I predict that the reason given will be that he was just too busy being a great man.

As a result, he left the faith in quite the mess. No prophecies for that one, oddly, since they have so many prophecies.

He also declared all of Baha'u'llah's other male descendants as Covenant Breakers. That seems a tad extreme and power hungry to me, like the eldest son who tries to get everything in an inheritance.

 

[Vinayaka]

O.K. then. Does anyone else find it odd that the Unification Church is considered peculiar on the basis of a snapshot,

I've never looked into the Unification Church, but most certainly it seems to fit quite a few people. I'm assuming it fits the needs of a certain mindset, else it wouldn't even exist. There is also something remarkably similar about the name 'Unification' to certain other faiths that get talked about here.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

This part of a quote from Abdul'baha may offer a thought about our actions if they are done in the knowledge of God; "....If man has not this knowledge, he will be separated from God, and when this separation exists, good actions have not complete effect." Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Page 238

The actions you undertake could be likened as to not having the yeast in the bread.

Regards Tony

Does my lack of knowledge of god create disharmony to where it benefits me more to follow a god-based system than the one I follow now? (Do I have yeast for my bread?)

 

[Unveiled Artist]

God as a means whereby he has been guided to find and embrace the Truth. As to those who have remained deprived of such a blessing, their acts alone have hindered them from recognising the truth of this Revelation."

Thank you. Im going deeper.

Without a god-belief by this quote, my actions (my virtues are my actions) hinder me from recognizing this truth. So, by consequence I need a new system of belief so my actions wont be hindered, correct?

Also, which actions are hindered for not recognizing the truth my religion doesnt teach?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Would you clarify that please. I didn't follow you at all. Thanks.

You have one foundation/god/elephant. By definition, the foundation cannot Also be hindu beliefs/christian beliefs/ the ear, eye, and trunk of the elephant.

If the latter, you have to believe more than one type of god while believing in god at the same time. The former, you can believe any of these things because they come from the same source.

Bahai believes the latter. I believe the former.

How are they both right?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Would you clarify that please. I didn't follow you at all. Thanks.

Parts (diversity/many truths) making up the elephant is different than the elephant (one truth) made up by its parts (diversity of secondary beliefs).

Bahaullah literally supports the latter. He disagreez with more than one truth.

I wanted to see if you can see reality with more than one foundation that makes up the diversity of the whole (by concept)?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Does my lack of knowledge of god create disharmony to where it benefits me more to follow a god-based system than the one I follow now? (Do I have yeast for my bread?)

If I offer Baha'u'llahs advice, Yes.

Consider I personally beleive you do follow a God based system of Faith in Buddha.

To add the yeast is our own choice if the type of bread we want to eat.

This is what Baha'u'llah has said;

"...The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Day Spring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof, hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent glory, to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the other. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the Source of Divine inspiration...."

Thus our first duty is to see God in our Chosen Faith, then to follow the Laws and these actions are both inseparable.

Consider Faith is a gift given, none of us are worthy of it and none of us are assured that we will not reject it again in our lives, once it is given. This section is of the Long Obligitory Prayer, that is said daily shows this point;

".......There is no God but Thee, the Almighty, the All-Bountiful. There is no God but Thee, the Ordainer, both in the beginning and in the end. O God, my God! Thy forgiveness hath emboldened me, and Thy mercy hath strengthened me and Thy call hath awakened me, and Thy grace hath raised me up and led me unto Thee. Who, otherwise, am I that I should dare to stand at the gate of the city of Thy nearness, or set my face toward the lights that are shining from the heaven of Thy will? Thou seest, O my Lord, this wretched creature knocking at the door of Thy grace, and this evanescent soul seeking the river of everlasting life from the hands of Thy bounty. Thine is the command at all times, O Thou Who art the Lord of all names; and mine is resignation and willing submission to Thy will, O Creator of the heavens!..."

Faith is not a thing we can take for granted, it is hard reflection, a lot of personal change and constant hard work. It is not for the faint hearted and it is not a Sunday Picnic.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Thank you. Im going deeper.

Without a god-belief by this quote, my actions (my virtues are my actions) hinder me from recognizing this truth. So, by consequence I need a new system of belief so my actions wont be hindered, correct?

Also, which actions are hindered for not recognizing the truth my religion doesnt teach?

I would say your heart needs to consider what is the author of your system of belief.

Is this goodness from our own selves, or does the goodness come when we subdue our own selfish desires? If it is the later, we do not own the goodness, we are gifted it.

If it is a gift what is the source? If we do ask of this source an answer is given.

Baha'u'llah has said it is God to test His servants and not us to test God, but leave has been given for us to ask of proof and be content with just one proof. If our heart is sincere the proof will be given.

Regards Tony