How are these Great Beings explained?

[siti]

Those are not my damning words condemning any religion to oblivion but the purported Words of Buddha and Krishna indicating that a time will come when their religion will have fallen into error and will need to be renewed.

But is that what it is really saying or is suggesting that their teachings would not be suitable for all humans in all places and all times? Its the vision of the goal that fades and changes and needs to be re-envisioned - but that doesn't mean that a new one is inherently better than an older one. Clearly Buddhism and Christianity - in their then-current forms - were not well-suited to 18th century Persia. But that doesn't mean they were not suitable for 18th century Thailand or 21st century America.

spirituality is to have the humility to accept all the Manifestations God sends and not insist we know everything.

...and not insist that they (Manifestations) do either - surely we have to have some faith in our power of reason?

 

[Father]

 

[Dawnofhope]

This is what I said: "It's also saying that Jews and Christians don't have their original teachings." So that's my question to the Baha'is... Do Baha'is believe Christians and Jews have lost their original teachings? I really, really doubt they believe they have lost their original teachings.

We don't.

Now for being right or wrong. My feeling has always been that I think spiritual leaders wrote what they thought was the truth.

Then why would they write what they believed to be false?

Maybe embellished the story with supernatural things to make it more authoritative, like stories of visits from angels or hearing God speak or whatever.

You need to decide whether or not human beings can have mystical experiences and be inspired by God. Why would they claim to have had supernatural experiences when they hadn't?

Religion then becomes very much a product of a people and culture. It can have similarities with other religions, but it can have many contradictory ideas also.

I agree.

Religions then can easily "progress" as people adapt things from other people's religions. I would call Buddhism more of an evolution from Hindu concepts.

You could call Christianity an evolution of Judaism. Unless you are clear what you mean by the term evolution then we can't properly assess it. If by evolution you mean a progression or development, then we could easily say that about the developmental of Christianity from Judaism, but its not saying a lot.

You may feel as if you have a clear enough understanding of both Buddhism and Hinduism to make that statement. Then you need to be more specific and be ready to demonstrate that you really understand it. Someone who is an actual Buddhist or Hindu will quickly discern whether you are authentic or not.

It then changed with each culture that became Buddhist.

It is clear that Buddhism, Christianity, and Islam being world religions have adapted to range of cultures by integrating elements of their traditions and symbols into the religion. If there was not the capacity for such adaptation, then these religions would not have become so widely accepted by large portions of the populations of the communities they were introduced to. Faith adherents need to communicate to indigineous populations using their traditions, language, and culture.

I hear violence, coercion, and manipulation as a cause of conversions. Of course thats been part of history too, but it doesn't explain why people in countries such as ours chose to continue their faith of their own volition.

Baha'is are forced to see all these types of changes as negative things.

That's not true.

They call them man-made traditions. I see them as adapting religions and blending ideas into something that fits their culture.

That's exactly what happens and many Baha'is understand this. It only becomes a problem when we insist that the cultural adaptations were part of the original religion.

 

[Vinayaka]

Maybe you’re right but I still think that we need to remove things like religious prejudice, racial discrimination and so on or wars will continue.

Of course we do. But it takes some time, and there is only one person we can improve.

 

[Vinayaka]

Yes but take a country like a North Korea. They needed the world to do something long ago but political ambitions have supplanted spiritual goals and their entire nation suffers because of it.

Spirituality needs to be far stronger than materialism and commercialism for the world to be a better place and currently it’s not permeating the world enough quick enough to make a difference.

Spirituality is stronger than materialism. Much stronger. It's just that young souls don't know it.

 

[oldbadger]

Again those are your words.

Whoa.... I asked questions.

I’m only sharing with you something you can find in clear verses of all Holy Books predicting that after time they will decay and require to be renewed. This quote from the Bhagavad Gita sums it up.

Did Bahauallah refer to the Bhagavad Gita?

Spirituality is not an item like a utensil but things like honesty and humility and truthfulness. Above all spirituality is to have the humility to accept all the Manifestations God sends and not insist we know everything.

No Sir!
Honesty is honesty. A person with no spirituality can be honest.
...and so on, with truthfulness, humility etc....

On the side, I have experienced spirituality, just this Monday gone. I have little doubt that the leather jacketed, high heeled young woman that works at the wedding shop is spiritual. At 2.00pm most Mondays she attends at the Spiritual Chapel to provide free healing to all who seek it. When she touches 'you' the heat is fantastic, all the way through. After 40 years absence I went there, last Monday.

4 Xrays, CT scan, Respiratory investigation, Ultra-sound, Lung fluid biopsy, Bronchoscopy, together with Asbestos contact on my lungs, the pleurisy, the pains, the loss of breath...... my wife and I were resigned to hearing of how long I would have left.

I went to the chapel and the woman layed her hands, and the shock of it was enough. Afterwards she had a cigarrette outside the chapel.

But today, the specialist saw my wife and I for the final results at K&C, Canterbury. There is nothing there. He sent me down for an on-the-spot Xray, and when we came back, there was nothing there. The fluid has gone, the particular lung looksb great. He shrugged his shoulders and said that he likes to give good news, 'cos it is so often bad.

I came to RF just now because I have been wandering about in a daze. My wife is gobsmacked, keeps coming and cuddling me (great!).

There you are...... a woman in black leather, high heeled boots, dark glasses, smoking a ciggy. But you want to experience her spiritual touch.

This is no lie. I got my life back this morning, and I keep thinking about that woman who gave healing last Monday.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Thankyou for your detailed reply.
The laws of Moses did need teachers and judges, but they were complete, left few gaps, any ordinary working person could understand them. Even I can understand them. I am sorry that that the Bahai writings are not understandable to ordinary working people....

They are understandable to ordinary people.
I have not come across a case, where it is not understandable. Have you? Do you remember any example when it is not understandable?

People can have preconceived ideas, which are not true ideas. When a Manifestation of God appears and speaks to them, they interpret His word through their own faulty ideas and misconceptions. This can cause them to not understand the words of God, otherwise, His words are clear. Then God, knowing of this defect of people, farther clarifies any possible misinterpretation of people, so, there remains no excuse for them.
The Bahai Writings includes writings of the Bab, Bahaullah, Abdulbaha, Shoghi Effendi and universal House of Justice. So, as a whole is a Revelation of God completed for this age, have a clear answer to every possible problem related to the role of Religion.

OK, but Abdul Baha just wrote more books.
Shogi Effendi wrote more books.
The UHJ wrote more letters.
Still nobody in classroom.

The way I see it, all humanity is right now in the class room. Most people may not be aware of it, and may not study the Book of God, but it does not mean they are not at school.

Bahauallah failed to provide all the pearls?

I believe He did. People are insisting not to enter the ocean to get the pearls.

This is not good, that Bahauallah wrote many things that were later changed. If Bahauallah was the Ordained Prophet and Apostle for this age, writing the Divine Words of God, then they should stand.

The way I see it, is, as the condition changes, so must also the Laws. This is why, in Bahai view, every Revelation had its own Laws. It is not realistic to think that humanity can become absolutely perfect in one single and quick step. It needs to gradually evolve and progress. The revelations of God are designed to make improvements on humanity in gradual steps, with the speed that humanity can adapt itself.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Again those are your words. Every scripture of every Faith envisages a ‘time of its own end’. Why is Christ coming again if Christianity is going to remain in its pristine purity or Buddha returning and don’t forget even Buddha said His Dhamma would decay over 2,500 yrs and disappear entirely. Even the Quran says every age has its own Book and Teachings so if you refer to each Holy Book your contention that there is no respect for each religion can be found in their own verses that they will eventually come to an end one day and a new religion will appear.

I’m only sharing with you something you can find in clear verses of all Holy Books predicting that after time they will decay and require to be renewed. This quote from the Bhagavad Gita sums it up.

In order to deliver the pious and to annihilate the miscreants, as well as to reestablish the principles of religion, I advent Myself millennium after millennium. (Bhagavad-Gita 4:8)

And again

when a counterfeit of the true Dhamma arises in the world, then the true Dhamma disappears. (Saṃyutta Nikāya 16)

Those are not my damning words condemning any religion to oblivion but the purported Words of Buddha and Krishna indicating that a time will come when their religion will have fallen into error and will need to be renewed.

Spirituality is not an item like a utensil but things like honesty and humility and truthfulness. Above all spirituality is to have the humility to accept all the Manifestations God sends and not insist we know everything.

Here is a favorite verse of mine in the suttas I posted ways back.

"The beautiful chariots of kings wear out,
This body too undergoes decay.
But the Dharma of the good does not decay:
So the good proclaim along with the good."
(SN 3:3; I 71)

The physical dhamma (the scrolled teachings) will decay just as our bodies.

The Dhamma of the good (compassion etc) will not decay because the good proclaim with the good.

Unless you are saying compassion, love, kindness, and enlightenment will decay, your interpretation of The Buddha's suttas on that particular topic (decaying Dhamma) is misinterpreted.

The other topic of another Buddha coming is no different than the buddhas before him, the buddhas after him, and the Maitreya teachings. They are all the same Dhamma because it does not decay (above). Our lineage I found out does believe in Maitreya's return and we all believe each buddha brings the same message. Some people look to one buddha or bodhisattva over another. Somewhat like Hinduism and people prefer their god or goddess of worship which reflect the supreme god. Likewise, the Bodhisattvas and buddhas teachings are reflections of the Dhamma.

The two interpretations

1. Dhamma will decay
2. Another Buddha will return

Are misinterpreted

1. The physical dhamma will decay (everything and everyone decays; that's the facts of life) but the content of the Dhamma (Dukkha) will not.

2. Maitreya is one of many disciples of the buddha. He brings the same Dhamma as The Buddha. The Dhamma existed before The Buddha came. The Dhamma existed before The Buddha was enlightened.

You're reflecting abrahamic viewpoints on a Dharmic belief.

Do you kinda see where I'm coming from?

 

[Vinayaka]

They are understandable to ordinary people.
I have not come across a case, where it is not understandable. Have you? Do you remember any example when it is not understandable?

I understand very very little of it, for two reasons. One is that it is written in archaic flowery language, and the second is that it simply doesn't jive with my common sense or intuition about reality and truth. It's a long long ways off from my senses of normalcy. So I am an example, which proves your theory wrong. But then again, I'm far below normal on the intelligence scale as well. Basically you're saying any idiot can understand the progressive manifestation idea. I'm not even at that level.

 

[Vinayaka]

Every scripture of every Faith envisages a ‘time of its own end’.

This is plainly false, LH, as I've indicated before. There are tons of scriptures in Hinduism that say nothing at all about it's own end.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You're reflecting abrahamic viewpoints on a Dharmic belief.

Or what can also be consided is that explanations are offered from Gods Own source, the Meaning of His Own Word.

Regards Tony

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Or what can also be consided is that explanations are offered from Gods Own source, the Meaning of His Own Word.

Regards Tony

"God's own source" is reflecting abrahamic ideas on Dharmic belief. It is not wrong in and of itself. There is no right and wrong. That's just what edit @loverofhumanity is doing and it distorts the actual message of each religion outside of Bahai views.

 

[Vinayaka]

Or what can also be consided is that explanations are offered from Gods Own source, the Meaning of His Own Word.

Which is, of course, an Abrahamic POV.

 

[CG Didymus]

I think if we are looking at the Prophecies of Bible, or Holy Scriptures in general, we should remember always one thing:

knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of private interpretation.
For no prophecy ever came by the will of man: but holy men of God spoke, being moved by the Holy Spirit.
2 Peter

To me this means that, interpretations of the Prophecies are not supposed to be done based of our own imagination. But God must reveal its interpretation to a Prophet, and then the Prophet tells us its interpretation. Remember the story of Joseph, and that He was the only one Who could interpret dreams?
What are your thoughts on this?

Well, my post was in response to Tony's "The Baha'i learn war no more. Without references, the Message always brings opposition and it is written in the Bible that Satan or Evil is also released for a period of time after the Message.

Mankind does not think in Gods time, they always expect instant confirmations. It has never worked that way. Time unfolds the Wisdom."

That was his answer as to why there is still wars. Peace hasn't been established. And to say Satan or evil is also released after the message? That's why I said that Satan is released after 1000 years. So far in Revelation Baha'is have taken everything that isn't prophesied in days and turn them first into days and then into "prophectic" language and make them years. So is this 1000 years also first turned into days and then into years? You guys think you have the prophet that interprets all of this, so interpret it.

For me, I don't know what it means, but I'm looking for and expecting some consistency. Also I do not accept passing over some verses to get to the ones that Baha'is can make fit into their interpretation. If Baha'is have the interpretation then let's hear it.

 

[CG Didymus]

I think there are two different things that you are talking here.
One is the human rights to believe. Each individual has the right to choose the belief or religion he/she wants.
However this does not mean that any belief is necessarily true, specially if the beliefs are contradictory.
For example, the Jews do not believe Jesus was their Messiah, but Jesus said He was the Messiah of the Jews. We cannot say both Jews or Jesus were right. Either Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, or not. Some people believe there is only one God, some believe there is no god, and some may believe there are many Gods. We cannot say all are true at the same time, how can we? The only thing we can say, is everyone has the right to believe what make sense to them. Right? Is this what you mean? I remember once you said you are a mathematics teacher. There is a concept of Logic in math which I am sure you are familiar with. If A = True and A≠B then B = False.
If A≠B, then if A=True →B= False
For example if 'Jesus is Messiah' is true then everyone who thinks 'Jesus is not the Messiah', is False. Or vice versa.

To me to say All are right, is just a politically correct statement, rather than, a frank and straight and true statement.

What do Jews believe about the Messiah? What do you believe about Jesus? Does that match what Jews believe about the Messiah? Also, did God tell the Jews to expect Jesus, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah as their Messiahs?

 

[CG Didymus]

Hmmm. Sorry, for intruding. That reads as any believer who has the holy spirit has permission to interpret the words of god. Those who do not believe in the holy spirit cannot interpret scripture. So, a JW cannot interpret scripture according to Peter because they don't believe in the holy spirit of the trinity. Man being the interpretation of the flesh or sin (someone without the holy spirit) whereas christians who believe they have the holy spirit can interpret it just as a prophet.

You know I read in 2 Peter where that quote came from. Peter goes on to talk about false prophets and teachers, so I think it is about not accepting just anybody's interpretation, but someone like one of the apostles or something. Of course the Baha'is want it to mean that all prophecy needs to be interpreted by Baha'u'llah not ordinary people.

 

[CG Didymus]

I have a Tablet of Bahá'u'lláh in Persian in front of me wherein Bahá'u'lláh quotes the New Testament Passage in Arabic. [included as .jpg attachment] And indeed in the Arabic the Glory of God that lights the City is translated as Bahá'u'lláh azaa'a feeha, i.e., literally in the Arabic of the New Testament as quoted by the Supreme Manifestation the appellation of Doxa tou Theou is Bahá'u'lláh,​

It seems like the New Testament was translated from Greek to Arabic. Two issues

1. No language can translate 100% in language and culture

2. Edit "Glory to God" is a descriptive-name. Abram, Yeshua, and The Bab were given a descriptive name describing their character or what they did to earn the titles Abraham, The Christ, and Bahaullah. All three are the glory to god. Christ is the only Lamb of God in christianity. Revelations speak of jesus, the Lamb. Bahaullah was not given the name The Lamb so he is not in revelations.

The web page also reads from a Bahai point of view not a Christian and definitely not Jewish point of view.

23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.​

I am the Lamb of god; I am the Light of the World; I am the Son of God. Philippians 2:11 "...and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."



You're using Bahaullah's text to prove he is in the bible. It has to work both ways. Since we are talking about the Bible, we should start with Biblical text to talk about Bahaullah. If, from biblical text Bahaullah could not be found by context and/or content, then biblically, Bahaullah's text although tangible available, it is not accurate.

I haven't read ahead yet, so I don't know how they will respond to you. But, Baha'is have said that the Bab is The Lamb. I argue that The Lamb is the central figure in Revelation and so many things point to The Lamb being Jesus. The Bab is barely known or talked about, so I really can't believe that all of the Book of Revelation is about the Bab.

 

[CG Didymus]

Or it could be enlightening.

Regards Tony

Tony, Tony... I know you mean well, and have been great at giving us your perspective of the Baha'i Faith... but to say that changing, or no, Baha'is are saying these tenets are totally and completely wrong, and that is "enlightening"? That's insulting. How you gonna when Christians and Hindus to your beliefs by telling them everything they believe about their religion is false? And then Baha'is confuse the issue by saying that all religions are one, all from the same God, and all in a progression?

 

[Dawnofhope]

Hmmm! So is the fact that some have grasped the "water-snake" carelessly and been bitten a good reason to abandon all our individual attempts to grasp it and wait for it to be handed to us by a divinely authorized charmer? Or is the sweet water of philosophical knowledge - the power of individual human reason - to be forbidden to all because some have choked on it? (see Averroes, The Decisive Treatise, 12th century). A little knowledge may be a dangerous thing, but surely failing to address our thirst for it with clean, clear 'water' will spell the death of the intellect altogether - and what hope for independent investigation then?

Interesting post. Thank you.

I think you may be mixing up interfaith discussion and independent investigation of truth, two very different concepts.

In regards to the water-snake simile, this refers to interfaith discussion, and addresses adherents of established faith communities. To me, it is saying that if you are a Baha'i, Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, or a Hindu and want to engage in interfaith discussion, then best to approach it from the perspective of respect, courtesy, and humility. If such discussions are approached from a POV of 'I'm right and you're wrong', and we are trying to convert another from their inferior faith to our superior faith, then this is unlikely to go well. As you are not a member of a faith community and not engaging in interfaith dialogue, then the simile does not apply to you. Independent investigation of truth is an entirely different proposition and I agree with most of the points you have made.

In regards to the question of what constitutes Divine inspiration, you asked that question earlier and I responded:

Investigating a religion and establishing its truth (or otherwise) is a personal journey for each one of us. Has a founder lived a life that is morally outstanding and distinguished? Do the teachings provide an effective means for positively transforming individuals and communities?

The words of Jesus come to mind:

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. … Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them,
Matthew 7:15-20

You responded back (and I hadn't replied but will now):

So what is the big difference between Owen and Baha'u'llah? I would argue that the most striking difference is that Owen's teachings are unquestionably of human origin and amenable to independent investigation. Baha'u'llah's are not.

Baha'u'llah's revelation is amenable to independent investigation, as we have His writings, accounts of is life, and can perceive some of the fruits of His Teachings.

Do the teachings provide an effective means for positively transforming individuals and communities? Well since they are so remarkably similar in both intent and content I don't think there is much to choose between them. But as I pointed out earlier, if there was a "first principle" of Owenism it was most definitely the faith that given the right circumstances and the right teaching, not only individuals and communities but the entire global order of humankind could be transformed to a "paradise" in which every one had their fair share of both work and its produce and as full a measure of human happiness as the earth could provide.

The difference between Owens and Baha'u'llah is that the Baha'i Faith happened and Owenism never really took off.

That brings us to another proof of a prophet:

'When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.'
Deuteronomy 18:22.

So if Baha'u'llah say he will establish a religion that will establish peace and justice to the world but his community falls into obscurity and disappears in the mists of time, then it makes Him very unlikely to be a prophet. Instead we have a worldwide community that became one of the most widespread religions in the world by 1992 (just 100 years after His passing).

f Owen was guilty of anything it was naive confidence in the essential goodness of human beings. But I don't think that should be held against him in this analysis - do you? In the end, as with the teachings of Buddha, Jesus and Baha'u'llah, it was the fallibility of people, and not any particular failing on the part of the teacher, that got in the way of successful implementation. By the time Owen's optimistic hope for a fairer world established on peaceful and harmonious relations were being laid to rest having been sacrificed on the altar of selfish human nature, his ideas were being transformed by Marx and Engels into a strident faith that sought to implement them by force. Now doesn't that sound strangely familiar - and unmistakably religious?!!

Baha'u'llah's Teachings has not become hijacked by those with competing, selfish agendas, as socialism was. There have been those who have tried, and continue to do so but they have not and will not succeed. Why not? Because Baha'u'llah clearly authorised His eldest son Abdu'l-Baha to be His successor and the authorised interpreter of His word, and Abdu'l-Baha authorised both Shoghi Effendi and the Universal House of Justice as his successors it has left the integrity of HIs Faith intact.

 

[CG Didymus]

There were problems in the family....... I am sure that Abdul Baha missed a generation, passing authority to his grandson. There were also problems with siblings I believe.

And lifelong supporters were excommunicated after Shogi Effendi's death in various kinds of power struggles.

One of the most clear writers about Bahai that I read and who has posted here is also estranged in some way, for some reason.

It does seem that some alternative viewpoints will be estranged and thus lose voting rights etc.

Wasn't Shoghi Effendi supposed to leave a will appointing the next guardian and he didn't?