How are these Great Beings explained?

[Dawnofhope]

I think you'd be interested in this

Alagaddupama Sutta

Buddhism isn't about The Buddha as a prophet. It isn't about Dhamma as an sacred text. It's about the Practice of non-attachment to these things.

Hence "kill the Buddha" means let go of the raft.

On that note: From your link

Whatever your conception is of the Buddha, it’s WRONG!

Now kill that image and keep practicing.

This all has to do with the idea that reality is an impermanent illusion. If you believe that you have a correct image of what it means to be Enlightened, then you need to throw out (kill) that image and keep meditating.

--Don't attach yourself to The Buddha (nor The Dhamma)

That is why abrahamic sacred-text believers and Dharmic believers don't mix. The former cannot let go of their raft.

That is another excellent link to beautiful and comprehensible suttas.

The point of non-attachment in Buddhism is well taken thank you. This is an essential teaching of Baha'u'llah that I believe is similar. it is called detachment:

A rich man and a poor man lived in the same town. One day the poor man said to the rich man, "I want to go to the Holy Land." The rich man replied, "Very good, I will go also," and they started from the town and began their pilgrimage. But night fell and the poor man said, "Let us return to our houses to pass the night." The rich man replied, "We have started for the Holy Land and must not now return." The poor man said, "The Holy Land is a long distance to travel on foot. I have a donkey, I will go and fetch it." "What?" replied the rich man, "are you not ashamed? I leave all my possessions to go on this pilgrimage and you wish to return to get your donkey! I have abandoned with joy my whole fortune. Your whole wealth consists of a donkey and you cannot leave it!" You see that fortune is not necessarily an impediment. The rich man who is thus detached is near to reality. There are many rich people who are severed and many poor who are not.
May our spirit be at rest! (Abdu'l-Bahá, Divine Philosophy, p. 135)

Our greatest efforts must be directed towards detachment from the things of the world; we must strive to become more spiritual, more luminous, to follow the counsel of the Divine Teaching, to serve the cause of unity and true equality, to be merciful, to reflect the love of the Highest on all men, so that the light of the Spirit shall be apparent in all our deeds, to the end that all humanity shall be united, the stormy sea thereof calmed, and all rough waves disappear from off the surface of life's ocean henceforth unruffled and peaceful. Then will the New Jerusalem be seen by mankind, who will enter through its gates and receive the Divine Bounty.
(Abdu'l-Bahá, Paris Talks, p. 87)

 

[Dawnofhope]

This is like saying people aren't allowed to have a favorite colour. In belief, there is no right or wrong. It's the Abrahamic false conditioning shining through again. (sigh) It's sad because it's such an important factor in intolerance and bigotry.

My comment to another was about investigating the truth and letting go. As humans we all have the same ego and passions to over come whether Abrahamic or Dharmic. Intolerance and bigotry are human qualities, not uniquely Abrahamic qualities.

 

[Dawnofhope]

LOL I never agreed with either. I participated in a thread that, for the millionth time, talked about why the Jews don't believe in Jesus. It was interesting.

I think we need to accept that it is what it is. Christianity that after two thousand years has a following of a third of the worlds inhabitants, and Islam with nearly a quarter of the worlds inhabitants see Jesus as an important prophet. The Jews are 14 million and they don't see Jesus in their scripture. It seems clear to me that Jesus was the promised Messiah, but I don't expect one who doesn't believe in the God of Abraham to accept it.

Christians believe there are hints from OT to NT. Which kinda makes sense from Jesus' genealogy. Outside of that, I don't see the relationship. Glory to God is a title not a person. What stopped me in my tracks about Bahai teaching is Moses talking to Bahaullah behind the bush.

In regards the burning bush, not all references to Glory of God are about Baha'u'llah.

Christ was a title too, in regards to the Greek Christos meaning Messiah.

Christ (title) - Wikipedia

How about Immanuel (God with us) in regards to Jesus and prophecy? That's another story.

Christ (title) - Wikipedia

 

[Vinayaka]

The point of non-attachment in Buddhism is well taken thank you. This is an essential teaching of Baha'u'llah that I believe is similar. it is called detachment:

In my sampradaya, we call it affectionate detachment, because it is borne of love, not hate.

 

[Vinayaka]

Are you suggesting that those who cannot understand the Divione Words of God as written by your Ordained Messenger must be partying drunken heathens?

Foot in mouth disease. Last week it was that the rest of us were blind. Gee, somehow, no matter what we do, we just can't measure up.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Oh my goodness! And there was you, claiming such wonderful equality for all, and now you tell me that the Divine Words of God are only meant to be understood by a very few people..... the spiritually advanced!
Are you suggesting that those who cannot understand the Divione Words of God as written by your Ordained Messenger must be partying drunken heathens?

Remember that it was you Bahais who couldn't understand what your Ordained Messenger wrote. It is you who continually repeat other people's ideas about what your messenger meant.


No they aren't! You need sons and grandsons to tell you what the messenger meant. And you turn his words round to suit the mood.
That is not spiritual...... it's basic.


When a backward delinquent kid cannot understand its teacher, don't change the kid..... change the teacher.


What?
You understand spiritual terms?

Do me a favour. Dive deep into your spirituality and resurface with any sentence that you believe to be 'Spiritual'. Be my guide............

The fact that current religion has been impotent to stop war says it all just how much true spirituality there is on earth.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I don't see it that way. As long as you see it that way, in terms of judging how advanced somebody is, it becomes ego and price, more futility and folly on the path. So it's not about being better, more advanced. etc. That stuff is just a waste of valuable time. A guy could be working for a charity instead, or having a real life discussion with a friend.

Yes I agree. Was just interested in what you use as a guide to measure your own spiritual progress. We have laws and teachings so if we depart from them we know we are going in the wrong direction but how does a Hindu know if he is becoming more or less spiritual?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Foot in mouth disease. Last week it was that the rest of us were blind. Gee, somehow, no matter what we do, we just can't measure up.

Those are oldbadgers Words misconstruing what I said and not my intent.

I’m saying that because materialism has dominated humanity people are finding it more difficult to understand spiritual terms

 

[Unveiled Artist]

That is another excellent link to beautiful and comprehensible suttas.

The point of non-attachment in Buddhism is well taken thank you. This is an essential teaching of Baha'u'llah that I believe is similar. it is called detachment:

A rich man and a poor man lived in the same town. One day the poor man said to the rich man, "I want to go to the Holy Land." The rich man replied, "Very good, I will go also," and they started from the town and began their pilgrimage. But night fell and the poor man said, "Let us return to our houses to pass the night." The rich man replied, "We have started for the Holy Land and must not now return." The poor man said, "The Holy Land is a long distance to travel on foot. I have a donkey, I will go and fetch it." "What?" replied the rich man, "are you not ashamed? I leave all my possessions to go on this pilgrimage and you wish to return to get your donkey! I have abandoned with joy my whole fortune. Your whole wealth consists of a donkey and you cannot leave it!" You see that fortune is not necessarily an impediment. The rich man who is thus detached is near to reality. There are many rich people who are severed and many poor who are not.
May our spirit be at rest! (Abdu'l-Bahá, Divine Philosophy, p. 135)

Our greatest efforts must be directed towards detachment from the things of the world; we must strive to become more spiritual, more luminous, to follow the counsel of the Divine Teaching, to serve the cause of unity and true equality, to be merciful, to reflect the love of the Highest on all men, so that the light of the Spirit shall be apparent in all our deeds, to the end that all humanity shall be united, the stormy sea thereof calmed, and all rough waves disappear from off the surface of life's ocean henceforth unruffled and peaceful. Then will the New Jerusalem be seen by mankind, who will enter through its gates and receive the Divine Bounty.
(Abdu'l-Bahá, Paris Talks, p. 87)

The intention is similar. The giving of posessions are required of monastics. The foundation (divine/god) and thr goal (divine attainment) is different. So one can practice non-attachment in many ways but if not following The Dhamma, that intention does not end rebirth.

Remember. We dont go off similar intentions. If thats the case, anyone who loves leads to enlightnment. If my peace is yours than we dont need to be bahai and believe in god nor The Buddha to acheive it. Peace withour god and peace without The Buddha "and" peace nonetheless.

Do you think this act of peace of non attachment will give us peace Without god and attainment of divine goal? (Greater peace)

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I think we need to accept that it is what it is. Christianity that after two thousand years has a following of a third of the worlds inhabitants, and Islam with nearly a quarter of the worlds inhabitants see Jesus as an important prophet. The Jews are 14 million and they don't see Jesus in their scripture. It seems clear to me that Jesus was the promised Messiah, but I don't expect one who doesn't believe in the God of Abraham to accept it.



In regards the burning bush, not all references to Glory of God are about Baha'u'llah.

Christ was a title too, in regards to the Greek Christos meaning Messiah.

Christ (title) - Wikipedia

How about Immanuel (God with us) in regards to Jesus and prophecy? That's another story.

Christ (title) - Wikipedia

I gave examples of titles before. Gautama, Yashua, and The Bab all have titles. Their titles are different.

I noticed christian prophecies outside the gospels like bahaullah are assumptions of connections that jews to christians and christians to bahaullah do not see.

Its interesting to see both of you connect it with the explaination of being god; hence an exemption of if its not there directly, its still there because of god.

 

[oldbadger]

So why do we study a Faith other than our own? Is it to become a better person and one who is more able to find unity and love with our co-religionists?

No no...... Unity? In the Individual Investigation of Truth? I think not. That is the lone wanderer grasping the tree and shaking it until its roots quiver. Then and there might truth be discovered, sometimes by an angry retort, at other times by the quietest whisper.

Perhaps it is to attack and defend the Faith of another and for our own ego? If our motive is sincere and pure then our goal is already accomplished.

No no...... no other faith, no agenda, and no ego for we, most of us, are nameless...... the intangible.

If it is otherwise then best we not enter into the arena of interfaith discourse.

Not you, of course, but that could have been shouted by a debater on the ropes?

So fellow faith and interfaith practitioners. How are we grasping the water-snake today?

Why, we never do catch it, it's usually just just best to follow after and see if it might side-wind straight into a mouse trap, all by itself.

 

[oldbadger]

Foot in mouth disease. Last week it was that the rest of us were blind. Gee, somehow, no matter what we do, we just can't measure up.

As the class erupts into dysfunctional chaos, the teacher stamps foot and declares it to be yet another bad group. just like the last, and the one before.

But will the Head Teacher agree?

 

[oldbadger]

The fact that current religion has been impotent to stop war says it all just how much true spirituality there is on earth.

Indeed.
So, basically, you don't really have much respect for other religions? Impotent?

Now, please, show us your spirituality? I did ask you before?

 

[Vinayaka]

Yes I agree. Was just interested in what you use as a guide to measure your own spiritual progress. We have laws and teachings so if we depart from them we know we are going in the wrong direction but how does a Hindu know if he is becoming more or less spiritual?

You don't really know, because let's face it, the ego isn't very smart. It likes to think it's special when it isn't. So we just plug along, trying our best to do some sort of spiritual work, both on the outside, and on the inside. As for behaviour, the only real guide, in Hinduism, is one's own conscience, and we can only hope ot's running properly.

 

[Vinayaka]

Those are oldbadgers Words misconstruing what I said and not my intent.

I’m saying that because materialism has dominated humanity people are finding it more difficult to understand spiritual terms

Not how I view it, but sure. I see lots of people trying to be spiritual. After all the SBNR crowd is the fastest growing belief group on the planet.

 

[Vinayaka]

The fact that current religion has been impotent to stop war says it all just how much true spirituality there is on earth.

You do know that the number of people involved in wars is decreasing generally, no? Why the pessimistic view all the time? That will eat you eventually.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

But that is so strange.
The Divine Words of God as passed to His Ordained Prophet, being oblique and needing further clarification?

Strange....

This is a good question.
In Baha'i View, this world is like a school. In this School there is Book, teacher, and students as well as tests.
The Book to study is the Book of God, revealed by the Manifestation of God. In our age, Baha'is believe Bahaullah has revealed the most recent Book of God. Then, there must be a teacher to explain the Book to us, so, we may understand. He was Abdulbaha. It is not because the Book of God is not clear, but because its standards are high. It is revealed as an advanced Book.
The students are humanity. Some are more capable to understand the Book, and they perhaps need less help from Abdulbaha to learn from the Book. Some may need more help. But God did not leave us alone. He gave us Abdulbaha.
We believe the Book and teachings of God are indeed very deep. It is like ocean. Each person, according to his ability can get the pearls from this ocean. If its level was too easy or low, it would not have been rich. Abdulbaha enables us to get more pearls from the ocean that Bahaullah has revealed.
We also believe Manifestations usually spoke to the level of the people of their time, and gradually taught them more. For instance, when Bahaullah appeared among Muslims, they were following law of Islam regarding number of wives they were allowed, which was four. Bahaullah wished to gradually reduce that to only one, because a sudden change was not practical and disturbing. So, He wrote as if they can have only two wives, and leaving it to Abdulbaha to later 'explain', that two is not fair; only one wife allowed. There are many instances like this, but I had to be brief.
But Abdulbaha was not only the interpreter of the Writings of Bahaullah. Bahais believe He was the interpreter of previous revelations. Now, with regards to previous revelations, the story is different. Part of the Bible, Quran and other Books were figurative, because they were meant to hide the mysteries of God until our Age, the Day of Resurrection. These figurative verses were intentionally revelead by God using an 'unclear' language, because once the Promised One comes He reveal their true meaning as one of the proofs of His divine knowledge; showing the knowledge of mysteries of God, which was unknown to ordinary people for ages.

 

[oldbadger]

Not how I view it, but sure. I see lots of people trying to be spiritual. After all the SBNR crowd is the fastest growing belief group on the planet.

Wow! What is SBNR?

Spiritual. Recently I mentioned the word 'spiritual' to a very RF-distinguished Jew and (more or less) he replied that he just didn't understand the word, or its concept.

I often ask folks who claim spirituality to express or write something in spiritual terms but I don't get many answers. Whilst I can understand that a person immersed in Status, Mammon, Power, Wealth, Privilege might be less spiritual, I still don't think that a person immersed into nothingness has to be spiritual either. Need help with that.

 

[oldbadger]

This is a good question.
In Baha'i View, this world is like a school. In this School there is Book, teacher, and students as well as tests.
The Book to study is the Book of God, revealed by the Manifestation of God. In our age, Baha'is believe Bahaullah has revealed the most recent Book of God. Then, there must be a teacher to explain the Book to us, so, we may understand. He was Abdulbaha. It is not because the Book of God is not clear, but because its standards are high. It is revealed as an advanced Book.

Thankyou for your detailed reply.
The laws of Moses did need teachers and judges, but they were complete, left few gaps, any ordinary working person could understand them. Even I can understand them. I am sorry that that the Bahai writings are not understandable to ordinary working people....

The students are humanity. Some are more capable to understand the Book, and they perhaps need less help from Abdulbaha to learn from the Book. Some may need more help. But God did not leave us alone. He gave us Abdulbaha.

OK, but Abdul Baha just wrote more books.
Shogi Effendi wrote more books.
The UHJ wrote more letters.
Still nobody in classroom.

We believe the Book and teachings of God are indeed very deep. It is like ocean. Each person, according to his ability can get the pearls from this ocean. If its level was too easy or low, it would not have been rich. Abdulbaha enables us to get more pearls from the ocean that Bahaullah has revealed.

Bahauallah failed to provide all the pearls?

We also believe Manifestations usually spoke to the level of the people of their time, and gradually taught them more.

Ask any anthropologist and they will tell, I'm sure, that the level of the human being has not changed in millenia.

For instance, when Bahaullah appeared among Muslims, they were following law of Islam regarding number of wives they were allowed, which was four. Bahaullah wished to gradually reduce that to only one, because a sudden change was not practical and disturbing. So, He wrote as if they can have only two wives, and leaving it to Abdulbaha to later 'explain', that two is not fair; only one wife allowed. There are many instances like this, but I had to be brief.

This is not good, that Bahauallah wrote many things that were later changed. If Bahauallah was the Ordained Prophet and Apostle for this age, writing the Divine Words of God, then they should stand.

 

[Vinayaka]

Wow! What is SBNR?

Spiritual. Recently I mentioned the word 'spiritual' to a very RF-distinguished Jew and (more or less) he replied that he just didn't understand the word, or its concept.

I often ask folks who claim spirituality to express or write something in spiritual terms but I don't get many answers. Whilst I can understand that a person immersed in Status, Mammon, Power, Wealth, Privilege might be less spiritual, I still don't think that a person immersed into nothingness has to be spiritual either. Need help with that.

Spiritual But Not Religious. I don't understand it either.