• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Help me understand Islam

Was Muhammed a terrorist?

  • yes

    Votes: 2 15.4%
  • no

    Votes: 11 84.6%

  • Total voters
    13

Sanzbir

Well-Known Member
Thanks. I appreciate your posts. It just really bothers me that Muhammad killed, tortured, and mutilated people. I feel that such behavior coming from the founder of a Religion, justified some of the atrocious behavior and policies we are seeing on the news today.

A lot of that comes from Hadiths, or sayings about the prophet Muhammad. Most written several hundred years after he lived. There's multiple, contradictory accounts. Personally I don't think speculative secondhand historical accounts should be trusted at all.

And yeah. Those really need to be acknowledged and rejected if Islam is to survive. There's no real reason that these Hadiths should or need to be believed, and yet Hadiths that claim things like "the Prophet Muhammad defecated in public in the direction of Israel" are still rather widely accepted Hadiths.

And the fact people accept such Hadiths is what leads to a lot of violent interpretations.

But there are Muslims within that community working to try to debunk and discredit those Hadiths as being false.

Also, it would be far more merciful to quickly execute someone than to chop off their hands and feet.

Note that the verse in question doesn't call for killing them slowly by dismemberment, but killing them or removing a limb and making them unable to return to their warlike ways.

Is it better to be dead or crippled?? I think most real life disabled persons would say the latter, but ultimately I think it varies from person to person.

Also, I have been caught stealing. According to Muhammad I should have my hands chopped off. That bothers me to see that such policies still go on today. Many people are missing a hand because of policies Muhammad instituted.

What about the innocent people. You can't give them their hand back.

The verse in question, I assume, you are referencing is 5:38-39. First of note that if you repent of your crime, nothing happens to you. So really when you were caught, if you refused to acknowledge your act was wrong, only then would the hand be "cut".

The second thing of note is that saying the hand should be "cut" could either mean "cut off" or that it should be cut/scarred to mark the person as a known thief. There are some Muslims who believe the former interpretation and some who believe the latter.

And yes, those who believe the former are a problem that should be addressed.

It also bothers me to know women are being stoned for adultery. Some of those women are innocent. Even the guilty ones don't deserve such a painful humiliating death.

When was the last time you heard of a Christian government stoning people to death? I'm troubled by these policies, and it is disturbing to see that such policies were practiced by the Prophet.

As a member of the Baha'i Faith, I should begin by stating that I don't believe Islamic laws are a good idea for implementing in the modern era. Nor do I believe Christian or Jewish laws appropriate for modern society.

So I won't seek to defend stoning adulterers in the Islamic, Christian, or Jewish Laws in modern society.

However, I think such laws should be addressed in the context of the time in which they were made.

Adultery today isn't too big of a deal. The biggest issue in adultery, to me, would be the fact that you are inadvertently exposing your primary partner to significant risk of sexually transmitted diseases without their knowledge or consent.

Now in the modern era, this isn't too big of an issue. It's still a significant issue but I would not say it is that dangerous, thanks to modern medicine and safe sex practices.

But in the ancient, medieval, and renaissance eras, where there were STD epidemics like syphilis that caused you to go insane and your flesh to rot from your body, I believe the extra risks that adultery causes to their partner makes adultery downright horrible. Being an adulterer in such an age exposes your partner to such health risks that at best, it is reckless endangerment, and at worst, it is manslaughter.

In the modern era, it could be argued that the same applies, with the seriousness of things like HIV that adultery should constitute reckless endangerment as well, but it is not nearly as severe due to safe sex advancements and medical advancements as a whole.

So given the severity of the crime, and with the horrors of syphilis I think it is unmistakable that it is indeed a severe crime, a strict punishment back in the day makes some sense. Keep in mind that in the medieval era mass incarceration was not economically possible for societies. You could imprison some criminals but logistically you had to find other ways, execution, restitution, or banishment, to punish criminals. The massive jail systems available today are only thanks to economic and technological advances.

Of course, by all means, I don't think this law, nor the Christian and Jewish equivalents, should be enacted in the modern era. If someone of those faiths wishes to defend it as such, that's up to them, but I don't think such a thing makes any sense in the modern era.

But at the time there is a degree of sense to it.

Note that the Quran mandates a lesser punishment for an unmarried man or woman than the punishment mandated for a married man or woman, because if you are unmarried adultery puts less people at risk of disease.

And the Quran does go on to state that if a person repents of their adultery, like many things, they escape punishment (24:5).

(If the Quran was ever enacted to its most literal sense I'd argue it would be almost too lenient!! :p For most of the crimes you could say to the judge "Yes I am guilty, but I'm very sorry!!" :D and by the letter of the law you'd be free to go!!)

Also, to address your concern on false witness, that is why the Quran goes further than the Bible and requires six people to bear witness to the adultery before it is actionable!!

And of course, a man or woman could still get five friends to testify falsely against their partner, but that's sort of a flaw in every legal system that can't be rectified even with modern technology. :(

Personally, though, if a person is an unrepentant adulterer in an age where STD's are serious and dangerous, I find it rather hard to pity the person who endangers their partner in such a way and can't even acknowledge they were wrong in doing so.

But while it makes sense for a certain era, Muslims should (and many in the west do) acknowledge that the law has no place in the modern world, and was only for the times of that law's revelation.
 
Last edited:

idav

Being
Premium Member
But while it makes sense for a certain era, than Muslims should (and many in the west do) acknowledge that the law has no place in the modern world, and was only for the times of that law's revelation.
Great post and very informative unfortunately this last part, as important as I think it is, seems to be a bit of a tall order. You gave plenty to back it up though. Great point also about Hadiths being written hundreds of years later not being trustworthy.
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
I'm trying to purge my heart of all Islamaphobia. I want to believe that Islam is what Obama says about it. Help me with these verses. There are many others like them. Muslims believe Jesus was Muslim. Jesus said "Love your enemies, turn the other cheek".

Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them

Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."

Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

(That would include most of the people at RF)


Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority".

Quran (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden).

(So don't make friends with us infidels.)


Quran (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"

(That verse makes my hair stand on end)


Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"


(So don't just kill them. torture and mutilate them)

Quran (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more fitna (disorder, unbelief) and religion is all for Allah"

Quran (8:67) - "It is not for a Prophet that he should have prisoners of war until he had made a great slaughter in the land..."

Quran (9:5) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush,

Quran (9:123) - "O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness."

Quran (17:16) - "And when We wish to destroy a town, We send Our commandment to the people of it who lead easy lives, but they transgress therein; thus the word proves true against it, so We destroy it with utter destruction."

Quran (47:3-4) - "Those who disbelieve follow falsehood, while those who believe follow the truth from their Lord... So, when you meet (fighting Jihad in Allah's Cause), those who disbelieve smite at their necks till when you have killed and wounded many of them, then bind a bond firmly (on them, i.e. take them as captives)... If it had been Allah's Will, He Himself could certainly have punished them (without you). But (He lets you fight), in order to test you, some with others. But those who are killed in the Way of Allah, He will never let their deeds be lost."

There is more verses like this. Cutting off a persons hands and feet is barbaric, yet it is right there in the Koran. Could you imagine living life without hands and feet? It would be total agony and humiliation where you cant even wipe your own behind. Yet Muhammad encouraged people to do that to people.

"In AD 627, Muhammad committed an atrocity against the last remaining major tribe of Jews in Medina: the Qurayza. He beheaded the men and the pubescent boys and enslaved the women and children. In doing this, he wiped an entire tribe "off the map"Muhammad’s atrocity against the Qurayza Jews

I'm aware that Christians have committed hideous atrocities, but the teachings of Christ don't encourage it. Jesus said "love your enemies. Do good to those who persecute you. If someone strikes you turn the other cheek."

I really want to believe that Islam is a Religion of peace as so many liberals in the media call it. Those who know the Religion of Islam know it is a Religion of peace. So please explain these verses to me. I'm clearly misinterpreting them. I must be unaware of their meaning or context, but surely these verses fuel violence, bigotry, and terrorism.

I'm not trying to start any beef with Muslims at RF. These are sincere questions. I love Muslims. I live with one and we face mecca on our face and pray in Arabic. In New York I wore a Kufi and prayed at a mosque with Sufi Muslims. I admire their dedication, self-discipline, and surrender to God.

I recently wrote Novena's to Muhammad (Peace be upon him) and the deceased Muslims (Peace be upon them) asking them for help discerning and obeying God and help with the grace to overcome my bias for Islam and the grace to love all Muslims, including those who are hardest to love.

If you are Muslim, I love you, God bless you, but some of the verses in the Koran and some of the actions of Muhammad (including child marriage and mass murder) make me sick. Please help me better understand this "Religion of peace."

If you take the time to Google violent passages in the bible you'll find that there are just as many calls for violent action in the bible as there are in the Koran. Christian history is filled with plenty of examples of the same sort of violence and intolerance that you find some Muslims engaging in today. Christianity is just an older religion and in many ways has matured beyond much of the violence and intolerance that plagued it's past. Though of course this isn't always the case.
 

Mohsen

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته
For the OP,

the Rules of Engagement

Condemning Terrorism in the name of Islam

Hope you find these useful

Peace!
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
Well they had to make use of ideas wherever they found them. :) The point is that many of the so-called "beautiful" parts of Islam were borrowed from other traditions. Muhammad wasn't particularly original.
I would agree there is significant chance the good stuff was borrowed, though because of this the theology often sounds correct (more gooder?) especially to Abrahamic seekers.
 

The_Fisher_King

Trying to bring myself ever closer to Allah
Premium Member
So are you unaware of the elements of Gnostic religions that Islam picked up into their theology?? The Muslims absolutely LOVED the Hermeticists, who shared a lot of theology with the Gnostics. They even went so far as to declare that Idris in the Quran was the same person as Hermes so that they could embrace the Hermetic writings as scripture. Gnosticism and Islam have a very interesting history together.

Not to mention the Bardaisanites, Elchasaites, Mandaeans, perhaps to an extent also the Manichaeans, and others besides..
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
I would agree there is significant chance the good stuff was borrowed, though because of this the theology often sounds correct (more gooder?) especially to Abrahamic seekers.
*Has a House MD moment*

You know, that gets me thinking. If Muhammad knowingly crafted the fabric of other religions into his creation of Islam, respected traditions albeit with nuances, that probably explains why he was so frustrated that those who remained in their religions continued to refuse to accept his claim of prophethood. What I mean is he incorporated neato bits from Christianity, Judaism and what-have-you and was dismayed when his prized trophy basses refused to bite.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
Islaam is not that hard to understand, but it is so unbelievable that Muslims most of all do not dare to believe that they understand it.

I really just meant that there are so many different sects so that one Muslims Islam isn't the same as another,the only thing that is standard for Muslims is submission or surrender to the will of their god.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
@YmirGF raises that point sometimes as well, @England my lionheart

I tend to think that the diversity of Islaamic sects is actually disappointingly limited, all things considered. It certainly does not strike me as high when compared to Christianity, let alone Hinduism or even Buddhism.

It may easily be a (limited) blessing in disguise, even. Islaamic doctrine is so freaking submissive to authority, logic and morality be darned, that it would be disastrous if it had a true central authority. I won't doubt even that most Muslims might subconsciously realize that and actively resist such a state of things.


A central authority might perhaps be useful for purposes of accountability, but that is a very low priority from a practical perspective. Doctrines do not benefit from a central authority. I would much rather have actual doctrinal worth in Islaam - and frankly, I do not hope for that anymore.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Islaam is not that hard to understand, but it is so unbelievable that Muslims most of all do not dare to believe that they understand it.
Perhaps that is why there is no new thought in Islam. It's always the same infinitely boring stuff, sort of like the warmed up left-overs from previous left-overs. Perhaps its because original thought is almost anathema to the Islamic perspective. Given that Muhammad supposedly perfected the religion doesn't actually allow much room for growth and innovation.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Perhaps that is why there is no new thought in Islam. It's always the same infinitely boring stuff, sort of like the warmed up left-overs from previous left-overs. Perhaps its because original thought is almost anathema to the Islamic perspective. Given that Muhammad supposedly perfected the religion doesn't actually allow much room for growth and innovation.
Sounds like it. When even harmless things such as the choice to celebrate Muhammad's anniversary are criticized by other Muslims simply because they are innovations, as if innovations were automatically deviations from proper doctrine and conduct, it becomes clear that Islaam is not very friendly to learning better in general.

And boy, does the preaching confirm that impression. The frequency with which Muslims end up quoting scripture seems to surpass even that of radical Christians. Also alarming is that the commentary about their own scripture is also disappointing. It seems to connect far more with fear and pride than with elements of religiosity proper.
 

Mohsen

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته
I really just meant that there are so many different sects so that one Muslims Islam isn't the same as another,the only thing that is standard for Muslims is submission or surrender to the will of their god.
All the sects are political, and not theologically compromised. Christians on the other hand... need to fortify their foundations.

Peace
 

Mohsen

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته
@YmirGF raises that point sometimes as well, @England my lionheart

I tend to think that the diversity of Islaamic sects is actually disappointingly limited, all things considered. It certainly does not strike me as high when compared to Christianity, let alone Hinduism or even Buddhism.

LOL? How is that even disappointing? Why even? Because we have solid foundations for belief, and no matter the sect, the theology is the same?

It may easily be a (limited) blessing in disguise, even. Islaamic doctrine is so freaking submissive to authority, logic and morality be darned, that it would be disastrous if it had a true central authority. I won't doubt even that most Muslims might subconsciously realize that and actively resist such a state of things.

Submissive to authority, in one breath - no central authority in the next? :D make your mind up.

A central authority might perhaps be useful for purposes of accountability, but that is a very low priority from a practical perspective. Doctrines do not benefit from a central authority. I would much rather have actual doctrinal worth in Islaam - and frankly, I do not hope for that anymore.

You don't know what you want, and are just talking drivel from what I can gather. You'd rather have a central doctrinal authority/worth in Islam but you don't hope for it anymore? Which is it? You either do or you don't. Aint no such thing as an half cooked horse here.

Peace
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
LOL? How is that even disappointing? Why even? Because we have solid foundations for belief, and no matter the sect, the theology is the same?

That is certainly not what I think. Islaam does not strike as solid in any healthy way. And considering its impressive history of inner conflict, I am more impressed by your chutzpah, frankly.

As for why it is disappointing - religion needs free thought to learn from circunstances and time. So would Islaam. New ideas are necessary for any doctrine to thrive.

Submissive to authority, in one breath - no central authority in the next? :D make your mind up.
It is not that hard, but if I must spell it out for your benefit, then so be it.

There is indeed far too much submission to authority and also a lack of a central authority.

That the submission is to varying understandings of what would constitute a proper divine will worsens the problem, because it makes that much more difficult to dispell the delusion.

You don't know what you want, and are just talking drivel from what I can gather.
I have noticed your ability to gather. All the best.

You'd rather have a central doctrinal authority/worth in Islam but you don't hope for it anymore? Which is it? You either do or you don't. Aint no such thing as an half cooked horse here.

Peace

Islaam is a broken doctrine. What I hope for it is the most serene possible death from implosion. There is really no better future for it.
 
Top