Help me understand Islam

[Spiderman]

I'm trying to purge my heart of all Islamaphobia. I want to believe that Islam is what Obama says about it. Help me with these verses. There are many others like them. Muslims believe Jesus was Muslim. Jesus said "Love your enemies, turn the other cheek".

Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them

Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."

Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

(That would include most of the people at RF)

Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority".

Quran (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden).

(So don't make friends with us infidels.)

Quran (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"

(That verse makes my hair stand on end)


Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

(So don't just kill them. torture and mutilate them)

Quran (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more fitna (disorder, unbelief) and religion is all for Allah"

Quran (8:67) - "It is not for a Prophet that he should have prisoners of war until he had made a great slaughter in the land..."

Quran (9:5) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush,

Quran (9:123) - "O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness."

Quran (17:16) - "And when We wish to destroy a town, We send Our commandment to the people of it who lead easy lives, but they transgress therein; thus the word proves true against it, so We destroy it with utter destruction."

Quran (47:3-4) - "Those who disbelieve follow falsehood, while those who believe follow the truth from their Lord... So, when you meet (fighting Jihad in Allah's Cause), those who disbelieve smite at their necks till when you have killed and wounded many of them, then bind a bond firmly (on them, i.e. take them as captives)... If it had been Allah's Will, He Himself could certainly have punished them (without you). But (He lets you fight), in order to test you, some with others. But those who are killed in the Way of Allah, He will never let their deeds be lost."

There is more verses like this. Cutting off a persons hands and feet is barbaric, yet it is right there in the Koran. Could you imagine living life without hands and feet? It would be total agony and humiliation where you cant even wipe your own behind. Yet Muhammad encouraged people to do that to people.

"In AD 627, Muhammad committed an atrocity against the last remaining major tribe of Jews in Medina: the Qurayza. He beheaded the men and the pubescent boys and enslaved the women and children. In doing this, he wiped an entire tribe "off the map"Muhammad’s atrocity against the Qurayza Jews

I'm aware that Christians have committed hideous atrocities, but the teachings of Christ don't encourage it. Jesus said "love your enemies. Do good to those who persecute you. If someone strikes you turn the other cheek."

I really want to believe that Islam is a Religion of peace as so many liberals in the media call it. Those who know the Religion of Islam know it is a Religion of peace. So please explain these verses to me. I'm clearly misinterpreting them. I must be unaware of their meaning or context, but surely these verses fuel violence, bigotry, and terrorism.

I'm not trying to start any beef with Muslims at RF. These are sincere questions. I love Muslims. I live with one and we face mecca on our face and pray in Arabic. In New York I wore a Kufi and prayed at a mosque with Sufi Muslims. I admire their dedication, self-discipline, and surrender to God.

I recently wrote Novena's to Muhammad (Peace be upon him) and the deceased Muslims (Peace be upon them) asking them for help discerning and obeying God and help with the grace to overcome my bias for Islam and the grace to love all Muslims, including those who are hardest to love.

If you are Muslim, I love you, God bless you, but some of the verses in the Koran and some of the actions of Muhammad (including child marriage and mass murder) make me sick. Please help me better understand this "Religion of peace."

 

[sun rise]

A few points, translations of Quranic Arabic are all over the map in some cases and reflect more about the translator than the text. Second, there are many many verses which say the opposite. There are of course evil Muslims but there are also passages and people who are good.

Here's just a few

“There is no compulsion where the religion is concerned.” (Holy Quran: 2/ 256)

“We have appointed a law and a practice for every one of you. Had God willed, He would have made you a single community, but He wanted to test you regarding what has come to you. So compete with each other in doing good. Every one of you will return to God and He will inform you regarding the things about which you differed.” (Surat al-Ma’ida, 48)

“God does not love corruption”. (Surat al-Baqara, 205)

[76:8-9]”And feed with food the needy wretch, the orphan and the prisoner, for love of Him (saying) : We feed you, for the sake of Allah only. We wish for no reward nor thanks from you..”

And the sayings of Muhammad which are revered second only to the Quran

The strong person is not the good wrestler. Rather,the strong person is the one who controls himself when he is angry.

"(Allah) has revealed to me that you should adopt humility so that no one oppresses another."

Kindness is a mark of faith.

 

[Spiderman]

Thanks! Those are good, wise, humble, and charitable verses. However, if Muhammad was a loving man of peace, why did he cut off so many heads, and express the desire to cut off hands and feet, crucify, torture, and wipe out non Muslims??

 

[Spiderman]

I was hesitant to make this thread and having second thoughts about it now, but I feel people need to be informed about this stuff. The violent intolerant Muslims essentially do what Muhammad did and commanded. Violent Christians do the opposite of what Christ did and commanded.

 

[soulsurvivor]

I'm trying to purge my heart of all Islamaphobia. I want to believe that Islam is what Obama says about it. Help me with these verses. There are many others like them. Muslims believe Jesus was Muslim. Jesus said "Love your enemies, turn the other cheek".

Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them

Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."

Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

(That would include most of the people at RF)

Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority".

Quran (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden).

(So don't make friends with us infidels.)

Quran (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"

(That verse makes my hair stand on end)


Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

(So don't just kill them. torture and mutilate them)

Quran (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more fitna (disorder, unbelief) and religion is all for Allah"

Quran (8:67) - "It is not for a Prophet that he should have prisoners of war until he had made a great slaughter in the land..."

Quran (9:5) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush,

Quran (9:123) - "O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness."

Quran (17:16) - "And when We wish to destroy a town, We send Our commandment to the people of it who lead easy lives, but they transgress therein; thus the word proves true against it, so We destroy it with utter destruction."

Quran (47:3-4) - "Those who disbelieve follow falsehood, while those who believe follow the truth from their Lord... So, when you meet (fighting Jihad in Allah's Cause), those who disbelieve smite at their necks till when you have killed and wounded many of them, then bind a bond firmly (on them, i.e. take them as captives)... If it had been Allah's Will, He Himself could certainly have punished them (without you). But (He lets you fight), in order to test you, some with others. But those who are killed in the Way of Allah, He will never let their deeds be lost."

There is more verses like this. Cutting off a persons hands and feet is barbaric, yet it is right there in the Koran. Could you imagine living life without hands and feet? It would be total agony and humiliation where you cant even wipe your own behind. Yet Muhammad encouraged people to do that to people.

"In AD 627, Muhammad committed an atrocity against the last remaining major tribe of Jews in Medina: the Qurayza. He beheaded the men and the pubescent boys and enslaved the women and children. In doing this, he wiped an entire tribe "off the map"Muhammad’s atrocity against the Qurayza Jews

I'm aware that Christians have committed hideous atrocities, but the teachings of Christ don't encourage it. Jesus said "love your enemies. Do good to those who persecute you. If someone strikes you turn the other cheek."

I really want to believe that Islam is a Religion of peace as so many liberals in the media call it. Those who know the Religion of Islam know it is a Religion of peace. So please explain these verses to me. I'm clearly misinterpreting them. I must be unaware of their meaning or context, but surely these verses fuel violence, bigotry, and terrorism.

I'm not trying to start any beef with Muslims at RF. These are sincere questions. I love Muslims. I live with one and we face mecca on our face and pray in Arabic. In New York I wore a Kufi and prayed at a mosque with Sufi Muslims. I admire their dedication, self-discipline, and surrender to God.

I recently wrote Novena's to Muhammad (Peace be upon him) and the deceased Muslims (Peace be upon them) asking them for help discerning and obeying God and help with the grace to overcome my bias for Islam and the grace to love all Muslims, including those who are hardest to love.

If you are Muslim, I love you, God bless you, but some of the verses in the Koran and some of the actions of Muhammad (including child marriage and mass murder) make me sick. Please help me better understand this "Religion of peace."

It is true that there are such passages in the Quran, but they usually have some mitigating words immediately afterwards. For instance,
2.191 Kill them whenever you confront them and drive them out from where they drove you out. (For though killing is sinful) wrongful persecution is even worse than killing
2.192 Then if they desist, know well that Allah is Ever-Forgiving, Most Compassionate.

We should remember that the Quran was written for simple, illiterate, nomadic tribesmen who had spent centuries fighting and killing each other and anyone else that came into their territory. The Quran went a long way in making them civilized.

Of course in the today's world, this text which was OK a thousand years ago could use some updating and reforming.

But consider this from the Old Testament:
"SAMUEL 15:3 Now go and smite Amalek and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ***."

Nowhere in the Quran will you find anything similar that talks about killing babies.

 

[Spiderman]

It is true that there are such passages in the Quran, but they usually have some mitigating words immediately afterwards. For instance,
2.191 Kill them whenever you confront them and drive them out from where they drove you out. (For though killing is sinful) wrongful persecution is even worse than killing
2.192 Then if they desist, know well that Allah is Ever-Forgiving, Most Compassionate.

We should remember that the Quran was written for simple, illiterate, nomadic tribesmen who had spent centuries fighting and killing each other and anyone else that came into their territory. The Quran went a long way in making them civilized.

Of course in the today's world, this text which was OK a thousand years ago could use some updating and reforming.

But consider this from the Old Testament:
"SAMUEL 15:3 Now go and smite Amalek and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ***."

Nowhere in the Quran will you find anything similar that talks about killing babies.

Yes, the Old Testament contains some hideous and sickening verses. Fortunately Jesus taught people to love their enemies and not return violence with violence.

Fortunately, in my lifetime I have not seen many Christians behaving like the Ancient Israelites did. However, there is much that Christians do and say that I find thoroughly repulsive!

 

[idav]

I think Islam is a beautiful religion, coming from that Gnostic side of me I can appreciate what it has to offer.

Lets look at their view on Adam and Eve for starters. It does not blame Eve for the eating of the fruit like it does in the Bible (but actually Eve is named Hawwa in the Quran). In Quran there is not the original sin, all are responsible for themselves. The story says that Adam was tempted by Satan to eat the fruit.

“No soul will be questioned about what another soul has done…” (Chapter 17, Verse 15)
"

That is just getting into the beginning and already has a better foundation than Christianity. All of the stories are like that in the Quran in comparison to the Bible but takes a bit of study.

Really to me the foundation is Jesus and no prophet after Jesus was perfect whether it is Paul or Muhammed. Muslims still await Jesus as a messiah and have an advantage of not relying on a doctrine of Jesus dying for sins and they consider Trinity to be idolatry which makes much sense from a monotheistic perspective.

 

[Spiderman]

I think Islam is a beautiful religion, coming from that Gnostic side of me I can appreciate what it has to offer.

Lets look at their view on Adam and Eve for starters. It does not blame Eve for the eating of the fruit like it does in the Bible (but actually Eve is named Hawwa in the Quran). In Quran there is not the original sin, all are responsible for themselves. The story says that Adam was tempted by Satan to eat the fruit.

“No soul will be questioned about what another soul has done…” (Chapter 17, Verse 15)
"

That is just getting into the beginning and already has a better foundation than Christianity. All of the stories are like that in the Quran in comparison to the Bible but takes a bit of study.

Really to me the foundation is Jesus and no prophet after Jesus was perfect whether it is Paul or Muhammed. Muslims still await Jesus as a messiah and have an advantage of not relying on a doctrine of Jesus dying for sins and they consider Trinity to be idolatry which makes much sense from a monotheistic perspective.

Thanks! That was helpful. I'm trying to see Islam as a beautiful Religion.

 

[YmirGF]

I think Islam is a beautiful religion, coming from that Gnostic side of me I can appreciate what it has to offer.

Oddly, the gnostic part of me is completely repulsed by Islamic theology and finds very little that is beautiful or even worthy of note.

 

[idav]

Oddly, the gnostic part of me is completely repulsed by Islamic theology and finds very little that is beautiful or even worthy of note.

Well in my interpretation, if you notice my reference, I find it less reprehensible than a certain other theology which would teach a corrupt humanity though original sin and particularly corruption through women. Islam actually doesn't do that, it's a decent start for sure. Now if I actually believed a word of the Quran that'd be another thing, I don't.

 

[Laika]

Violent Christians do the opposite of what Christ did and commanded.

Jesus was a Charismatic Jewish Revolutionary who agitated for the overthrow the Roman occupation of Israel and was publicly executed for claiming to be the Messiah (or King) of the Jews and became a Martyr. Whilst Christians may have "rehabilitated" Jesus after his death, I don't think you can deny the fact that Jesus was definitely an "extremist" even if he was not a "terrorist" as an advocate of non-violence.

What Jesus did then would be like someone in Iraq saying "we should end the American occupation with non-violence" or "Free Tibet from Chinese occupation by Loving your occupiers", whilst spending time with Prostitutes and Tax Collectors out of a belief in Universal love and Brotherhood, overturned the tables of the Moneylenders in the Temple whilst preaching against the wealthy, debating Tax Evasion as form of passive resistance to the occupier ("Render to Caesar what is Caesars") and claiming to cure a Leper.

This is not normal behaviour, even by self-professed Christians. Or as Jesus might put it, "let he who cast the first stone be free of sin".

 

[Sanzbir]

]Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them

For most of these, but especially the one you mention, it might help to look at the full context around these verses you point out. This is something that you should do especially for verses like above since a statement "kill them" necessarily begs the question "who does it mean by 'them'??" For example, for 2:191, the verses around it are as follows:

2:190: "And fight in the Way of Allah those who fight you, but transgress not the limits. Truly, Allah likes not the transgressors."

2:192: "But if they cease, then Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."

So with that context it is not "kill people" it is "kill people who attack you, and if they stop attacking you than stop fighting them and forgive you."

It's a basic rule of self defense that even I, as a pacifist, find hard to argue against.

By far this seems like the most frequently taken out of context quote.

Quran (2:216)

- "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."

Adding in 217 for context, it further goes on to state that fighting is terrible, but it is necessary in certain times to combat things like people trying to forcibly suppress the Muslims or people preventing the Muslims from freely assembling or worshiping at their holy places. Again, pretty much self defense.

Quran (3:56)

- "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

(That would include most of the people at RF)

Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority".

Yes, that states those who reject faith go to hell. My religion has a radically different view of hell, so I don't really care if another religion states that so-and-so is going to hell. Many religions hold that view, so I don't see it much of a problem.

Adding the context of the verse before it though sees that it considers those who accept the Torah or Gospels as being among those who are saved. I'm not sure if you caught that detail.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/noble/sura3.html#151

Quran (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden).

(So don't make friends with us infidels.)

No, not infidels. Read the verse. Who is "they"?? It says they refers to people who wish that you should reject your religion. Don't befriend someone who wants you to reject what you believe.

That seems like sound advice to me.

Quran (5:33)

- "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"

(That verse makes my hair stand on end)

The following verse reads "Except for those who repent before they fall into your power: in that case, know that Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful."

The verse itself outlines four potential punishments for those who wage unjust war. The punishments are either execution, crucifixion, loss of limb, or exile. Harsh, yes, though I find it hard to sympathize with those who attack another people in war. And again, there's a forgiveness clause, allowing the attackers to escape punishment and attain forgiveness if they repent of the crime of waging a bloody war of aggression.

Now in a modern era I wouldn't advocate a death penalty for soldiers fighting in a war of aggression, but this was an age when mass incarceration was not feasible. Releasing unrepentant, hostile warriors meant they would just regroup and attack and kill people once again.

Is one of the four punishment options outlined severe?? Yes. Though the crime is also severe. Perhaps there are four different possible punishments outlined to enable the enforcer of such a ruling to choose the appropriate punishment.

Would crucifying, say, Hitler or Stalin for their aggressive wars be just?? I'm not sure.

 

[Sanzbir]

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/noble/sura8.html#12

Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

(So don't just kill them. torture and mutilate them)

No, no, no, in full context this is a command given to angels at a specific battle in the past, not to people. The idea was that the angels would mark the bodies of those they slew so that all could see how much God had helped in enabling the people to win and survive the battle.

Quran (8:39)

- "And fight with them until there is no more fitna (disorder, unbelief) and religion is all for Allah"

The other half of the verse you cite is "But if they cease, then certainly, Allah is All-Seer of what they do."

And in the context of the verse, it is still talking about the one specific battle that was mentioned above with the angels verse. So again it is "fight them until they stop fighting you", but this time it only applies to a specific battle in the past.

Quran (8:67)

- "It is not for a Prophet that he should have prisoners of war until he had made a great slaughter in the land..."

This refers to ransoming prisoners of war, and again refers to one specific battle. So in that specific battle: "Don't ransom the PoWs until the enemy has been soundly defeated." Specific, situational, tactical advice for a battle long-gone.

Quran (9:5)

- "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush,

Quran (9:123) - "O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness."

So chapter nine refers to a specific peace treaty that the early Muslims signed with a group of aggressors. These verses above, in full context, pretty much say "If they break the peace treaty, fight them." Again, that's sound advice. But nothing here really applies to the modern era, since it is talking about a specific ancient peace treaty with a group of people.

And again, in context they have "if they stop forgive them" clauses.

Quran (17:16)

- "And when We wish to destroy a town, We send Our commandment to the people of it who lead easy lives, but they transgress therein; thus the word proves true against it, so We destroy it with utter destruction."

In full context this is talking about the cities destroyed by God in the Torah/Old Testament. The verse above it also states "And never would We punish until We sent a messenger." So basically according to this city destroying only happens after a warning has been given, and only if a warning is unheeded. Compare the story of Jonah, who was told Nineveh would be destroyed, but the people of Nineveh listened to his warning, and so it was not.

Like the verses on hell, this is nothing new, considering it is a reference to things in Jewish and Christian scriptures.

Quran (47:3-4)

- "Those who disbelieve follow falsehood, while those who believe follow the truth from their Lord... So, when you meet (fighting Jihad in Allah's Cause), those who disbelieve smite at their necks till when you have killed and wounded many of them, then bind a bond firmly (on them, i.e. take them as captives)... If it had been Allah's Will, He Himself could certainly have punished them (without you). But (He lets you fight), in order to test you, some with others. But those who are killed in the Way of Allah, He will never let their deeds be lost."

Please note: whoever gave you these verses seems to have DELIBERATELY cut out the following sentence from the second elipses!!

"and either [confer] favor afterwards or ransom [them] until the war lays down its burdens."

Why, I must wonder, would the person who gave you that quote deliberately cut out the line about ransoming off war captives for the purposes of ending the war?? Perhaps that is something you should wonder yourselves.

So this verse says to fight fiercely the people who fight you and to take prisoners of war so you can end the war sooner. That seems like sound advice to me.

 

[Sanzbir]

Cutting off a persons hands and feet is barbaric, yet it is right there in the Koran. Could you imagine living life without hands and feet? It would be total agony and humiliation where you cant even wipe your own behind. Yet Muhammad encouraged people to do that to people.

The verse you specifically quoted that mentioned cutting off hands and feet was a punishment for those who make war. Now if you cut off the foot of a man who warred against people, he can't commit those heinous crimes ever again.

Now in the modern era I'd say this is unnecessary. But in an era where mass incarceration wasn't possible, and you had to do something with all your violent prisoners, it seems you have three choices:

Kill them.
Let them go free enabling them to kill again.
Or let them go free, but take extreme measures to make sure they can't kill again.

Which is the best option of those three??

In the modern era, I'd repeat, this should not be done as we have advanced to a point where mass incarceration is possible. But for those living a few hundred years ago, even three hundred years ago, that was pretty much the best option one had.

I really want to believe that Islam is a Religion of peace as so many liberals in the media call it.

Don't.

There are some sects that I would call "religions of peace", but those are the ones that advocate pacifism even when under direct attack. The religions that state if a bandit comes and kills people and burns down your village you should respond with pacifism.

Islam is not like that. Islam, as elaborated in the Quran at least, is a religion of war when necessary and self-defense in the face of aggression. The label "religion of peace" probably does more harm than good.

Islam teaches that allowing a bandit to kill innocents and burn their homes is just as bad as killing those people and burning their homes yourself, and thus states that one has the duty to fight such a bandit. (See Quran 2:84-86)

actions of Muhammad (including child marriage and mass murder) make me sick.

So on the topic of child marriage and Muhammad here we have an interesting topic.

We have the subject of Hadith, or sayings about the Prophet Muhammad. These are essentially like the Christian Gospels, they are not Muhammad's direct words, but are second-hand accounts of his life. And, much like the Gospels, as a result they contain many contradictions (like the question of whether Jesus was born in a cave or a stable).

And yes, there are Hadiths that state that the Prophet Muhammad's wife was under the age of 10 when he married her.

But there are also Hadiths that state that Muhammad was that same woman's second marriage, the first husband having died, and that she had already born a child when she was married to him.

Which do we believe?? Personally, I'm of the mind that we should be dubious of trusting any secondhand source about events from the seventh century, especially as many Hadiths are written centuries after Muhammad's life.

But the dubious authenticity of the sources that claim Muhammad engaged in child marriage doesn't change the fact that there are some Muslims who believe the Hadiths claiming the wife was younger. And it doesn't change the fact that there are some Muslims who use that verse to justify child marriage. So this is something that Muslims as a whole should strive to address and counteract within their own religion, in my own opinion. There's too much misinformation and absolutely horrible things in certain widely accepted Hadiths, especially within a book called the Bukhari. These things really need to be discussed and soundly rejected.

I'm aware that Christians have committed hideous atrocities, but the teachings of Christ don't encourage it. Jesus said "love your enemies. Do good to those who persecute you. If someone strikes you turn the other cheek."

I just want to do one thing here to completely underline my point about how context is super important.

Jesus's own words: "But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me." (Luke 19:27)

Wow!! Jesus sure is violent!!

Chuang Tzu's own words: "Making shrewd guesses as to how much booty is stashed away in the room is sageliness; being the first one in is bravery; being the last one out is righteousness; knowing whether the job can be pulled off or not is wisdom; dividing up the loot fairly is benevolence. No one in the world ever succeeded in becoming a great thief if he didn't have all five!" (Chuang Tzu 10)

Wow!! The Taoist teacher Chuang Tzu gives a guide on how to become a criminal mastermind!!

Baha'u'llah's own words (only fair that I throw in my own Faith for this demonstration): "These shall return to their abode in the fire of hell: wretched is the abode of the deniers!"

Wow!! The Baha'i Faith states that nonbelievers will burn in fire for eternity!!

Except none of that is true. Each quote I have taken completely out of context to make a point on how important context is to understanding any scripture.

In context: Jesus is not speaking the words himself, but narrating a character in a metaphor. Chuang Tzu is doing the same, specifically to mock the Confucians and their five virtues by showing how a criminal could use them for their own means. And Baha'u'llah explicitly states elsewhere that his use of terms like "fire" and "hell" refer only to the suffering of being separate from God, and all such suffering is self-inflicted and by choice.

So I hope the point is made.

Never look at any scriptural verse from any religious tradition in a vacuum. Always look at the context of the surrounding verses and always look at the context of the society in which it was given, and the events happening at the time. Context is king to doing any theologicaly analysis.

 

[Sanzbir]

Oddly, the gnostic part of me is completely repulsed by Islamic theology and finds very little that is beautiful or even worthy of note.

So are you unaware of the elements of Gnostic religions that Islam picked up into their theology?? The Muslims absolutely LOVED the Hermeticists, who shared a lot of theology with the Gnostics. They even went so far as to declare that Idris in the Quran was the same person as Hermes so that they could embrace the Hermetic writings as scripture. Gnosticism and Islam have a very interesting history together.

 

[YmirGF]

So are you unaware of the elements of Gnostic religions that Islam picked up into their theology?? The Muslims absolutely LOVED the Hermeticists, who shared a lot of theology with the Gnostics. They even went so far as to declare that Idris in the Quran was the same person as Hermes so that they could embrace the Hermetic writings as scripture. Gnosticism and Islam have a very interesting history together.

Well they had to make use of ideas wherever they found them. The point is that many of the so-called "beautiful" parts of Islam were borrowed from other traditions. Muhammad wasn't particularly original.

 

[Spiderman]

The verse you specifically quoted that mentioned cutting off hands and feet was a punishment for those who make war. Now if you cut off the foot of a man who warred against people, he can't commit those heinous crimes ever again.

Now in the modern era I'd say this is unnecessary. But in an era where mass incarceration wasn't possible, and you had to do something with all your violent prisoners, it seems you have three choices:

Kill them.
Let them go free enabling them to kill again.
Or let them go free, but take extreme measures to make sure they can't kill again.

Which is the best option of those three??

In the modern era, I'd repeat, this should not be done as we have advanced to a point where mass incarceration is possible. But for those living a few hundred years ago, even three hundred years ago, that was pretty much the best option one had.



Don't.

There are some sects that I would call "religions of peace", but those are the ones that advocate pacifism even when under direct attack. The religions that state if a bandit comes and kills people and burns down your village you should respond with pacifism.

Islam is not like that. Islam, as elaborated in the Quran at least, is a religion of war when necessary and self-defense in the face of aggression. The label "religion of peace" probably does more harm than good.

Islam teaches that allowing a bandit to kill innocents and burn their homes is just as bad as killing those people and burning their homes yourself, and thus states that one has the duty to fight such a bandit. (See Quran 2:84-86)



So on the topic of child marriage and Muhammad here we have an interesting topic.

We have the subject of Hadith, or sayings about the Prophet Muhammad. These are essentially like the Christian Gospels, they are not Muhammad's direct words, but are second-hand accounts of his life. And, much like the Gospels, as a result they contain many contradictions (like the question of whether Jesus was born in a cave or a stable).

And yes, there are Hadiths that state that the Prophet Muhammad's wife was under the age of 10 when he married her.

But there are also Hadiths that state that Muhammad was that same woman's second marriage, the first husband having died, and that she had already born a child when she was married to him.

Which do we believe?? Personally, I'm of the mind that we should be dubious of trusting any secondhand source about events from the seventh century, especially as many Hadiths are written centuries after Muhammad's life.

But the dubious authenticity of the sources that claim Muhammad engaged in child marriage doesn't change the fact that there are some Muslims who believe the Hadiths claiming the wife was younger. And it doesn't change the fact that there are some Muslims who use that verse to justify child marriage. So this is something that Muslims as a whole should strive to address and counteract within their own religion, in my own opinion. There's too much misinformation and absolutely horrible things in certain widely accepted Hadiths, especially within a book called the Bukhari. These things really need to be discussed and soundly rejected.



I just want to do one thing here to completely underline my point about how context is super important.

Jesus's own words: "But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me." (Luke 19:27)

Wow!! Jesus sure is violent!!

Chuang Tzu's own words: "Making shrewd guesses as to how much booty is stashed away in the room is sageliness; being the first one in is bravery; being the last one out is righteousness; knowing whether the job can be pulled off or not is wisdom; dividing up the loot fairly is benevolence. No one in the world ever succeeded in becoming a great thief if he didn't have all five!" (Chuang Tzu 10)

Wow!! The Taoist teacher Chuang Tzu gives a guide on how to become a criminal mastermind!!

Baha'u'llah's own words (only fair that I throw in my own Faith for this demonstration): "These shall return to their abode in the fire of hell: wretched is the abode of the deniers!"

Wow!! The Baha'i Faith states that nonbelievers will burn in fire for eternity!!

Except none of that is true. Each quote I have taken completely out of context to make a point on how important context is to understanding any scripture.

In context: Jesus is not speaking the words himself, but narrating a character in a metaphor. Chuang Tzu is doing the same, specifically to mock the Confucians and their five virtues by showing how a criminal could use them for their own means. And Baha'u'llah explicitly states elsewhere that his use of terms like "fire" and "hell" refer only to the suffering of being separate from God, and all such suffering is self-inflicted and by choice.

So I hope the point is made.

Never look at any scriptural verse from any religious tradition in a vacuum. Always look at the context of the surrounding verses and always look at the context of the society in which it was given, and the events happening at the time. Context is king to doing any theologicaly analysis.

I liked your post , but Luke 19 was a parable. Jesus never ordered attacks or violence against anyone. When the Apostle took up a sword to defend him he said, "put away your sword, those who live by the sword will die by the sword!"

 

[Sanzbir]

I liked your post , but Luke 19 was a parable. Jesus never ordered attacks or violence against anyone. When the Apostle took up a sword to defend him he said, "put away your sword, those who live by the sword will die by the sword!"

That was my point. I took it out of context to show why the context is important when looking at Quranic verses as well. To look at Quran 2:191 without 2:190 and 2:192 is pretty much the same error as looking at Luke 19:27 without the context of the surrounding verses.

Likewise the Taoist and Baha'i quotes were also out of context. I want to make sure that's explicitly clear. Jesus didn't call for people to be brought before him and killed, Chuang Tzu didn't advocate a life of banditry, and Baha'u'llah did not propose a literal burning hellfire for nonbelievers.

All three I took out of context, intentionally. I took three religions, which I have great love for, and took their verses out of context to show how they can be mischaracterized, to show why context is important.

 

[Sanzbir]

Muhammad wasn't particularly original.

No, and neither was Jesus, Moses, Guatama Buddha, Chuang Tzu, Confucius, Zoroaster, or any of the Gnostic writers past Thrice-Great Hermes. All built from traditions that came before them.

Even with secular philosophers, Socrates, Marx, Locke, Breton, Machiavelli, all built on traditions that came before them. There's not exactly anything wrong with lacking "originality".

 

[Spiderman]

That was my point. I took it out of context to show why the context is important when looking at Quranic verses as well. To look at Quran 2:191 without 2:190 and 2:192 is pretty much the same error as looking at Luke 19:27 without the context of the surrounding verses.

Likewise the Taoist and Baha'i quotes were also out of context. I want to make sure that's explicitly clear. Jesus didn't call for people to be brought before him and killed, Chuang Tzu didn't advocate a life of banditry, and Baha'u'llah did not propose a literal burning hellfire for nonbelievers.

All three I took out of context, intentionally. I took three religions, which I have great love for, and took their verses out of context to show how they can be mischaracterized, to show why context is important.

Thanks. I appreciate your posts. It just really bothers me that Muhammad killed, tortured, and mutilated people. I feel that such behavior coming from the founder of a Religion, justified some of the atrocious behavior and policies we are seeing on the news today.

Also, it would be far more merciful to quickly execute someone than to chop off their hands and feet.

Also, I have been caught stealing. According to Muhammad I should have my hands chopped off. That bothers me to see that such policies still go on today. Many people are missing a hand because of policies Muhammad instituted.

What about the innocent people. You can't give them their hand back. It also bothers me to know women are being stoned for adultery. Some of those women are innocent. Even the guilty ones don't deserve such a painful humiliating death.

When was the last time you heard of a Christian government stoning people to death? I'm troubled by these policies, and it is disturbing to see that such policies were practiced by the Prophet.