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How are these Great Beings explained?

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
I can understand you.

And if you believe homosexual sex activity is good for spiritual development, Bahai teachings just says, it is harmful for them.

Some people have a psychological need for a prophet, a strict guide. It helps for doing less thinking, that's for sure. Just like in a classroom, where I spent 27 years teaching, some students couldn't do anything without being told what to do. I worked hard over the years to train them out of that dependence. Often, rather than telling them to get their textbooks out to page 27, I'd just start teaching. Some kids would be immediately following along with the questions, and other kids wouldn't even be able to get going within the 40 minute class. It would end with, "But Mr. M, you didn't tell me to get my book out." And so the world turns, each with his own degree of being able to express his.her own ideas.

It is very rare that you get to hear about the Hindu or other religious teachings on the subject, or any subject, so focused on finding that next apt quote of your prophet.

What it really boils down to is the vast difference between prophet based religions, and the rest of us.

Perhaps an overindulgence in sexual activity isn't good for spiritual development, but then neither is judgemental hate.

From my readings, it seems that gay Baha'i's often go to Unitarian Universalism, which has many of the same concepts, except for a stark difference on this issue. I'm glad they have a place to go to, and feel comfortable.
 
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Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
The Baha'i attitude towards all people including gays is love. That means feeling genuine warmth and affection and developing friendships with those that are different to us, whether in our work place, social life, and whatever sphere of social activity we move in. Baha'is should see the good in all people and overlook the faults of others perceived or otherwise. I have gay patients, gay students and have had gay friends. I don't exclude or shun any person because of their social orientation and try and see all peoples as my equals and peers.

Baha'is would never be involved with the activity that promotes hatred or antipathy towards any minority, homosexuals included.

We all know the Baha'i laws but Baha'is should never judge other people against the standards of our religion. That is the Baha'i way.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
But there is good company (for the Baha'i') on this from the likes of fundamentalist Christianity and radical Islam.

There are many moderates with most faith groups who would take a similar position to the Baha'is, not just the fundamentalists.
 
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Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
From the above site - some quotes -

"Dear Bahá’í Friend,

Your email letter dated 11 January 2014 has been received by the Universal House of Justice. We have been asked to convey to you the following."

"Various philosophies and theories have eroded precepts of right and wrong that govern personal behavior. For some, relativism reigns and individuals are to determine their own moral preferences; others dismiss the very conception of personal morality, maintaining that any standard that restrains what is considered a natural impulse is harmful to the individual and ultimately to society. Self- indulgence, in the guise of expressing one’s true nature, becomes the norm, even the touchstone of healthy living."

"The perspective presented in the Bahá’í writings departs sharply from the pattern of thought achieving ascendancy in many societies. Bahá’u’lláh states that the knowledge of God is revealed through His Manifestation,

"“In the religion of God, there is no freedom of action outside the law of God,” ‘Abdu’l-Bahá concludes. “Man may not transgress this law, even though no harm is inflicted on one’s neighbor. This is because the purpose of Divine law is the education of all—others as well as oneself—and, in the sight of God, the harm done to one individual or to his neighbor is the same and is reprehensible in both cases.”

Think about those last three sentences with RED highlighting, - and what a Baha'i run world would be like.

"Just as Bahá’ís do not impose their views on others, they cannot relinquish their principles because of changing trends in popular thought. The pattern of life to which they aspire, Shoghi Effendi writes, can tolerate no compromise with the theories, the standards, the habits, and the excesses of a decadent age.”

"To accept Bahá’u’lláh is to accept His Teachings, including those that pertain to personal morality, even if one must struggle to live up to His standard. It would be a profound contradiction for someone to profess to be a Bahá’í, yet reject, disregard, or contend with aspects of belief or practice He ordained.

"His Teachings are a safeguard for one’s true nature and purpose."

"You are, of course, well aware of the explicit Bahá’í standard. Marriage is a union between a man and a woman, and sexual relations are only permissible between husband and wife. These points are laid down in the writings of Bahá’u’lláh, ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, and Shoghi Effendi and are not subject to change by the Universal House of Justice. Bahá’u’lláh also prohibits certain sexual acts, including homosexual relations; if such statements are considered by some to be unclear, the unambiguous interpretations provided by Shoghi Effendi constitute a binding exposition of His intent. The Guardian’s interpretations, made in his role as the authoritative expounder, clarify the true meaning of the Text and are not derived from the scientific knowledge of the time.

"The Guardian made it clear that Bahá’ís with a homosexual orientation should not withdraw from the community and should receive its support and encouragement. The House of Justice sympathizes deeply with those individuals, and their families, who strive in this respect to understand and hold fast to the Teachings while buffeted by the controversy unfolding within their societies.


Not a future society that I want to live in.

Everybody is wonderful if you follow their religious laws. Messengers supposedly appeared to all "accepted" religions, meaning = patriarchal = man still above woman and in power, no homosexuality, no tolerance, or compromise, concerning views other than their prophet's words from "GOD."

Nope!

*

Instead of using your colour coded system of reds, blues, enlargements, bold, and underlining trying to make the words of the Universal House of Justice say something it isn't, why not let the words speak for themselves? At least you are quoting from an authoritative source.
 
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Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
The Baha'i attitude towards all people including gays is love. That means feeling genuine warmth and affection and developing friendships with those that are different to us, whether in our work place, social life, and whatever sphere of social activity we move in. Baha'is should see the good in all people and overlook the faults of others perceived or otherwise. I have gay patients, gay students and have had gay friends. I don't exclude or shun any person because of their social orientation and try and see all peoples as my equals and peers.

Baha'is would never be involved with the activity that promotes hatred or antipathy towards any minority, homosexuals included.

We all know the Baha'i laws but Baha'is should never judge other people against the standards of our religion. That is the Baha'i way.

Unfortunately, not all adherents of any faith are up to practicing such tolerance.

Within Baha'i' itself, the two messages seem quite contradictory. On one hand, you say love is all around, but then you put this huge condition on said love, that being that certain people are not allowed to do what is natural to them, part of them, a human right. I guess if you can live with that contradiction, or ignore one of the two entirely, it might pass. I don't see any other alternative. So far the solution has been to speak on behalf of someone else, not at all unlike how the Baha'i' speaks for other religions. You're saying, "It's okay. We understand. You guys and gals can just have hetero sex instead, or be celibate. I simply cannot imagine the uproar if the tables were reversed, and the heteros were told, 'it's okay, you can just have gay sex, or be celibate. It's not a problem."
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Unfortunately, not all adherents of any faith are up to practicing such tolerance.

Within Baha'i' itself, the two messages seem quite contradictory. On one hand, you say love is all around, but then you put this huge condition on said love, that being that certain people are not allowed to do what is natural to them, part of them, a human right. I guess if you can live with that contradiction, or ignore one of the two entirely, it might pass. I don't see any other alternative. So far the solution has been to speak on behalf of someone else, not at all unlike how the Baha'i' speaks for other religions. You're saying, "It's okay. We understand. You guys and gals can just have hetero sex instead, or be celibate. I simply cannot imagine the uproar if the tables were reversed, and the heteros were told, 'it's okay, you can just have gay sex, or be celibate. It's not a problem."

It seems contradictory because we are discussing two relationships. The relationship we have each other and the personal relationship we have with God. Our attitude to each other should be love. kindness and overlooking the faults of others.

The relationship with God is a personal one for each of us as we aspire to live by the high moral standards, but that is a matter of conscience.

The problem comes when we confuse the two and start taking paternalistic attitudes towards friends, family, and associates.

I agree that it is must be an enormous difficulty for a Baha'i or any faith adherent who is exclusively homosexual in their orientation and yet their religion has laws that says it is wrong to express their sexual feelings towards another.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
It seems contradictory because we are discussing two relationships. The relationship we have each other and the personal relationship we have with God. Our attitude to each other should be love. kindness and overlooking the faults of others.

I agree that it is must be an enormous difficulty for a Baha'i or any faith adherent who is exclusively homosexual in their orientation and yet their religion has laws that says it is wrong to express their sexual feelings towards another.

Adrian, do you consider homosexuality a fault?

How do you feel about the question where the tables are turned? Would you be able to follow a faith where the leaders said you had to be homosexual or celibate? (I'm assuming you're heterosexual.)

Personally, I couldn't have a relationship with any God who didn't include certain people in his flock unconditionally, whether that be race, sexual orientation, colour of hair, intelligence, or any other natural aspect he gave them. But that's just me.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Adrian, do you consider homosexuality a fault?

How do you feel about the question where the tables are turned? Would you be able to follow a faith where the leaders said you had to be homosexual or celibate? (I'm assuming you're heterosexual.)

Personally, I couldn't have a relationship with any God who didn't include certain people in his flock unconditionally, whether that be race, sexual orientation, colour of hair, intelligence, or any other natural aspect he gave them. But that's just me.

I would take a few steps back before considering any of this.

First we all have part of our nature that we could describe physically and instinctively in regards to our sexuality. An important part of that is our reproductive system (male/female) and associated hormones that kick in around puberty. The fundamental purpose of the reproductive system is of course is to reproduce.

The usual or normal process of development for humans is heterosexual attraction that develops with puberty which of course makes sense considering the primary purpose of reproduction.

As has been highlighted, not everyone develops that way and some have attractions to the same sex. Some have high libido and some are practically asexual. There are other sexual attractions beyond attraction to adults too.

Academic research by Lara Greaves as part of the New Zealand Attitudes and Values Study found that 94.2 per cent of New Zealanders identified as straight or heterosexual, 2.6 per cent as gay or lesbian, 1.8 per cent bisexual, 0.6 per cent bicurious, 0.5 per cent pansexual and 0.3 per cent asexual.

LGBT in New Zealand - Wikipedia

New Zealand Attitudes and Values Study - Wikipedia

These are the facts to consider and agree on before discussing further. When I first looked at research that determined those that identified as exclusively homosexual I was surprised at how low the percentage was.
 
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Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Always Be well and be happy Carlita, it appears my words do not help. I will remain silent.Regards Tony

I don't know if you see it, but we do. It may not be intentional, but when I point it out again and again. Usually, when you (people in general) learn something about yourself, you tend to change yourself for the best especially in a religion that promotes it. It's hard.

You cannot make world peace without assertive conversation
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
I would take a few steps back before considering any of this.

First we all have part of our nature that we could describe physically and instinctively in regards to our sexuality. An important part of that is our reproductive system (male/female) and associated hormones that kick in around puberty. The fundamental purpose of the reproductive system is of course is to reproduce.

The usual or normal process of development for humans is heterosexual attraction that develops with puberty which of course makes sense considering the primary purpose of reproduction.

As has been highlighted, not everyone develops that way and some have attractions to the same sex. Some have high libido and some are practically asexual. There are other sexual attractions beyond attraction to adults too.

Academic research by Lara Greaves as part of the New Zealand Attitudes and Values Study found that 94.2 per cent of New Zealanders identified as straight or heterosexual, 2.6 per cent as gay or lesbian, 1.8 per cent bisexual, 0.6 per cent bicurious, 0.5 per cent pansexual and 0.3 per cent asexual.

LGBT in New Zealand - Wikipedia

New Zealand Attitudes and Values Study - Wikipedia

These are the facts to consider and agree on before discussing further. When I first looked at research that determined those that identified as exclusively homosexual I was surprised at how low the percentage was.

What do these "facts" have to do with the question?

Why would you be surprised by low homosexual percentages?

We know IN THE WOMB - if certain chemicals kick in at different times, or not at all, - we end with babies all over the homosexual spectrum. Gay - Bi - transgender, born with both penis and vagina, etc. And those births with both penis and vagina prove it beyond a doubt. As do the studies of those children where they decided to go with the most prominent organ and remove the other, resulting in a lot of suicides - as the child was not that sex inside.

The majority of the animal kingdom has homosexuality.

The FACT that it is nature, and people are born that way, puts the lie to religions that claim God condemns it.

The religious idea that God created male and female as the only way to procreate, - is also shown to be false by science. Thus they are just the writings of primitive Bronze Age men.

"Female hammerhead sharks can reproduce without having sex, scientists confirm. "

"The new tests on the dead pup's tissues now show the newborn's DNA only matched up with one of the females - and there was none of any male origin."

"Although extremely rare in vertebrates, parthenogenesis (out of the Greek for "virgin birth") occurs in a number of lower animals. Insects such as bees and ants use it to produce their drones, for example." BBC NEWS | Science/Nature | Captive shark had 'virgin birth'

"The largest lizards in the world are capable of "virgin births".

Scientists report of two cases where female Komodo dragons have produced offspring without male contact." BBC NEWS | Science/Nature | 'Virgin births' for giant lizards

And of course other critters, like some fish, change sex in response to hormonal cycle or environmental changes.

In fact - with a little science, - two human females can produce a completely new healthy female with both of their DNA.

Males cannot do this - even with fake wombs, as mitochondrial DNA is needed for survival, - and found only in females.

SO, - it isn't the way the Bible and other patriarchal religions says it is.

*
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
1) First we all have part of our nature that we could describe physically and instinctively in regards to our sexuality. An important part of that is our reproductive system (male/female) and associated hormones that kick in around puberty. The fundamental purpose of the reproductive system is of course is to reproduce.

Academic research by Lara Greaves as part of the New Zealand Attitudes and Values Study found that 94.2 per cent of New Zealanders identified as straight or heterosexual, 2.6 per cent as gay or lesbian, 1.8 per cent bisexual, 0.6 per cent bicurious, 0.5 per cent pansexual and 0.3 per cent asexual.

LGBT in New Zealand - Wikipedia

New Zealand Attitudes and Values Study - Wikipedia

These are the facts to consider and agree on before discussing further. When I first looked at research that determined those that identified as exclusively homosexual I was surprised at how low the percentage was.

I'm not surprised. Many natural factors have low percentages. Red hair, extraordinary height, dwarfism, Down's Syndrome, you name it. That doesn't mean we should select some to discriminate against, and show compassion to others.

As for reproduction being the only reason for sexuality, that's very debatable. Are you saying that if medicine discovers infertility in a person, that that person should be banned from having sex?
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
For Bahais, Bahaullah asked them to obey His Laws for the Love of His beauty:
“Observe My commandments, for the love of My beauty." Bahaullah, Book of Aqdas.
Thus, for instance for those who are Homosexuals, whether they chose to be, or they were at birth, Bahaullah is saying if you love Him, then put aside your own desire, and obey Me. It is obvious that, if someone with a homosexual desires, has believed that Bahaullah is a Manifestation of God, and thus truly loves Bahaulah, would b able to set aside his/her desires. In Bahai Faith it is believed, by praying and perhaps getting help from medical professionals and counsellors, one can overcome this desire.
It is obvious those homosexusals who are not Bahais, are already not in the Faith, so, it makes no difference to them. They would not prey in Bahai way. For those who believed in Bahaullah as infallible Manifestation, they would strive to set aside their own desires, and live a Bahai life based on teachings of Bahaullah. I do not see why they could not? In the same way a straight person, in Bahai Faith is not suppose to have sex outside marriage. Though they would have the desire naturally, yet they obey Bahai Laws for the love of Baha. This is a choice they make.
It is obvious that, in this case, many of homosexuals would never have sex or get married. Is this unfair? Let me ask this. There are many who are born with physical problems, without eye, or hearing. Or without hand or leg. Mentally challenge. Is it fair? Well, in Bahai belief God is fair. This life ends for all. But the real life begins after this life. So, in this world all are tested having their own difficulties to overcome. Bahais do not see this world as the reality, or worthy to say, it is unfair some can never have sex, can never see, or are not rich. Bahai view goes beyond the worldly view.

Of course it would be unfair that homosexual people would have to be sexless monks for the rest of their lives, while the rest of you enjoy sex and family!

That is horrid thinking! - It is torture! - Especially as science proves that humans are born that way, - see my other posts above, - and thus such ridiculous laws CAN NOT be from any real God.

We would have to have a really stupid God to forget he made a creation where homosexuals can be born, and then condemn them to hell for being born that way!

*
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
We can only each go our own way.

We have opposite views on the topic so all we can do is both sides go their own way. Just like we have no right to force homosexuals to accept our religion so too we can't be expected to give up our beliefs.
Religions that have lots of "God-given" laws don't have a good track record. So I hope you understand the concern as to how the Baha'i Faith intends to deal with people that don't join or have a behavior that goes against Baha'i teaching.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
I think we made it clear. All sexual orientation tags aside.

Under Baha'i Law no sexual relations can be had outside a lawful marriage.

Lawful marriage in the Baha' Faith is between a male and a female .

Each person that accepts Baha'u'llah will have to consider that Law.

Regards Tony
So are all non-married Baha'is celibate?
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
Instead of using your colour coded system of reds, blues, enlargements, bold, and underlining trying to make the words of the Universal House of Justice say something it isn't, why not let the words speak for themselves? At least you are quoting from an authoritative source.

It says what it says. Highlighting makes special note of the nonsense.

Homosexuality is not - "Self- indulgence, in the guise of expressing one’s true nature.

And since we know homosexuality is from the womb, - then any religion claiming their God says it is otherwise, and evil/harmful, - obviously can not actually be from the God whom made humans that way.

*
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
One only becomes a Baha'i if he or she fully believes in its teachings. Some people don't become Baha'is because drinking or gambling is forbidden and they want to continue to drink & gamble.

It only makes sense to join any religion if you are fully committed to its laws. It's the same with the other teachings. If you didn't believe in world peace you wouldn't join a religion which teaches it.

Why would a person become a Baha'i if they disagreed with its laws and teachings? It would make no sense.
Does every Baha'i agree with every law in the Baha'i Faith? Do they even know all the laws? Do they uphold all the laws or bend a few in private?
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
So are all non-married Baha'is celibate?

They know the laws, it is up to them to implement them in their lives.

Christ gives great advice on these matters.

Before removing a splinter from someones eye, remove the plank from ones own eye first.

Consider once we accept the Laws given by Baha'u'llah, the effort to live them begins. In this law, consider how different it is from current trends and peoples thoughts. We are toldtoconsider that once you accept, do you think you will be left alone and held not put to test against that beleif!

Regards Tony
 
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