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How are these Great Beings explained?

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Implausible, yes. Another story that is part truth, part allegory, part mythology. Who of us knows for certain exactly what happened.

Hello again......
That's the problem ....... parts of truth, allegory, myth etc.
Because of this all manner of folks can spin mostly any version of such stories to fit with their own agenda. An atheist can rubbish a historian's research into myth. A Christian, say, could spin a miracle from a coincidence..... and on.

On the side, and generally speaking, would you say that a person who believes in something, having coped with and answered the slings and arrows of a 10000 post heated debate........ would be better prepared to cope if chucked on a platform and asked to promote their beliefs in front of a bunch of pagans?

See? We antagonists are all little angels really, sent to knock you lot into shape. Ever seen an' ol' badger with wings? :D
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
"Unity" but not acceptance.
Hi....
Not even Unity.
In a Bahai World non-Bahais would have no voting rights, and it's very unlikely that they could hold any government offices at any level.

A secondary world language would be great - however, - I like my languages, and culture.

And I don't think a world parliament could keep things under control. Smaller groups obviously can't keep control, - so how exactly is a stretched thin "world" parliament going to work?

There would always be countries opting out and leaving, just as the UK seeks to leave Europe.

Their own affair? Your religion wants to be the world religion, - with a world parliament.

What happens to pagans, and atheists, and homosexuals, then?

The writings bring these into question.

*
Polyamorists, Polygamists, adulterers, alcohol drinkers, spiritualists........ the list would grow..... and grow....
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Hello again......
That's the problem ....... parts of truth, allegory, myth etc.
Because of this all manner of folks can spin mostly any version of such stories to fit with their own agenda. An atheist can rubbish a historian's research into myth. A Christian, say, could spin a miracle from a coincidence..... and on.

On the side, and generally speaking, would you say that a person who believes in something, having coped with and answered the slings and arrows of a 10000 post heated debate........ would be better prepared to cope if chucked on a platform and asked to promote their beliefs in front of a bunch of pagans?

See? We antagonists are all little angels really, sent to knock you lot into shape. Ever seen an' ol' badger with wings? :D

Hi Old Badger,

Regardless of what is true or otherwise, Baha'is need to develop a passion and love for engaging positively and constructively with peoples of all Faiths and ideologies. Pagans and athiests are no exceptions.

This thread as had more contributions from those who are not Baha'is than those that are. Thas whats made it interesting and lively for me.:)

Best Wishes
Adrian
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Hi Old Badger,

Regardless of what is true or otherwise, Baha'is need to develop a passion and love for engaging positively and constructively with peoples of all Faiths and ideologies. Pagans and athiests are no exceptions.

This thread as had more contributions from those who are not Baha'is than those that are. Thas whats made it interesting and lively for me.:)

Best Wishes
Adrian

Exactly ......
I have found that the most effective way (for me) to learn quickly is through full on debate.

There are some very effective debaters on RF from all manner of backgrounds and beliefs, and the learning curve is high-gradient.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Hi Old Badger,

Regardless of what is true or otherwise, Baha'is need to develop a passion and love for engaging positively and constructively with peoples of all Faiths and ideologies. Pagans and athiests are no exceptions.

This thread as had more contributions from those who are not Baha'is than those that are. Thas whats made it interesting and lively for me.:)
n
Best Wishes
Adrian

Talking of differences builds a sturdy long conversatio. Talking about similarities gets kinda boring when think the same. Probably why some Bahai are bored. If I looked at similarities among differences all the time, I probably wouldn't talk on this thread because everyone would "look" the same. Be free!
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
@InvestigateTruth or @adrian009

I opened the bible just a minute ago and remember marking this verse years ago. I marked a a lot of verses when I read the bible.

"Now, Jesus did many other signs in the presence of [his] disciples that are not written in this book. But these are written that you may [come to] believe that jesus is the messiah, the son of god, and that through this belief you may have life in his name."
John 20: 30-31 Brackets in NAV Bible

Now, Jesus did many other signs in front of his disciples that are not written in this book. But by these signs you may come to believe jesus is the messiah, the son of god that through this belief you may have life in his name.

:leafwind:

I can't remember which of you I was talking to but one of you mentioned that I was interpreting scripture the way I wanted to rather than how scripture is written. Even though that is an insult, this is another scripture that backs up the one I said earlier John 5:39 that one of you think I misquoted.

Now, I'm quoting these verses throughout these thread and instead of refuting me with the bible, explain why I am wrong with these specific verses. Why is the bible the way to god and not christ himself?

What about the physical bible do you need to find the manifestation you're looking for? Even for christians who read this, how does these two scriptrues mean look to the bible for salvation rather than to christ?

What am I missing about going to christ to get to god?

How are the scriptures involved in this? Even Jews don't describe god (who god is rather than his attributes) nor does their Torah. Just I AM.

So what am I missing?
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Turning to and reading what Baha'u'llah has to say for your own self. As you have just done with the Bible and drawning your own conclusions.

Regards Tony

Wow. Tony. I'm talking about the Bible not what Bahaullah said. I think Investigator and/or Adrian asked me about quoting scripture and misinterpreting it.

I am specifically asking about biblical scripture

and no. From being a christian before no, I have not misinterpreted the bible. That's why I've been a christian so long and had a relationship with the god I understand god to be because I didn't take my word for it but the word of the body of christ. Body of christ-the people-the church (baptist, pentecostal, catholic, JW, whoever)-a body of people.

I don't think Adrian told me this but I know he is christian oriented.

So, can you answer the question without telling me to read Bahaullah's view on the matter and without assuming I said it in my own words?????

edit

Asking me to read Bahaullah is the same as assuming I'm using my own interpretation. In christianity, the interpretation is through Christ not Bahaullah and not me.

 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Turning to and reading what Baha'u'llah has to say for your own self. Just as you have done with the Bible and drawing your own conclusions.

Tony. Please re-read my post in full before you criticize it. If you want to address it nicely without division note I'm specifically asking about biblical scripture and the verses based on scripture not by Bahaullah and not by myself (hence the reason I asked the question).

Christianity seeks truth through the body of christ because through the body-the people (if you trust them that is)-is how christ is present which is in the bible but I can't turn into superman to be christian again to prove it. Sheesh.

These are innocent questions why did you have to make them so negative because I'm asking about the validity of why christians and Bahai, I'm learning, say X when the bible says Y.

:( Ima eat my cookies now.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
@Tony Bristow-Stagg I was talking to Investigator about it. I asked you new questions in these posts. I figure you wanted to refute it and thought I wanted to argue so you didn't read them. I agreed to some of the things you said. I tried to put them in bold so they stick out.

If you don't put trust in what others say, why be Bahai?

9051 and 9055
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
We are totally different. I don't see how world peace can happen if you're not interested in what people believe. I mean, I can sit the Bible, Quran, Lotus Sutta, and Bahallah's writings side by side and read them all; and, they, in and of themselves (except the suttas but case in point) mean nothing to me. However, if a Christian, Muslim, Nichiren Buddhist, and Bahai told me about what they believe and their experiences related and from the their given books, it makes it more personal. As a result, I learn more. When I put into action what I read in the book, the book doesn't become the source but I do-my actions. You can read about the religions all day and night. I just find it odd you don't put trust in the people you want to have peace with.


The problem is, I've shown you many many times from the scriptures you accept and you said to me "I see it the way I want to see it". That as a huge insult. If I were still a christian, I wouldn't be having this conversation because that is an insult. If you don't trust people, you cannot have peace.

But you got to read the scriptures I tell you and comment from those scriptures not refute them with your own. You're debating scripture with scripture? I used your scripture to show you my point. I used similarities but you are seeing difference. Now you confused the heck out of me.



I know you don't care about people's experiences. (Basically, you don't care about people) You just care about a book. Why be Bahai if you don't care about people's experiences-if you aren't interested in them, there is no peace. (Bahaullah had interest in other people. You're telling me something completely different Investigator)



If you posted "you search scriptures as if it said eternal life but even scriptures testify to my behalf."

and I posted the same scripture

It means the same thing. How can you see it differently. Christ is saying you are looking to the book as if it has the answers. The book tells you he has the answers. Not the other way around.

Give me context on how you see this otherwise rather than skipping it. I addressed your scriptures. Address what I post.




Yes, because if your faith says world peace, that peace is between human beings not robots. If you don't like people's opinions, why talk with people?

Why be Bahai for that matter? Christian? Buddhist? All of these faiths need you to talk with people to make world peace.

I honestly feel that your disinterest in other people's experiences is your opinion. You have to quote Bahaullah because all the scripture all of you guys quoted seem like he had some sort of love and care for people--hence the diversity part.
It is not like I don't care about people. I am also sorry you felt insulted, but you really shouldn't take it personal at all. I think all people want to see scripture the way they like, and usually want to make it say, what they want it to say. I believe we all tend to do this. So, i am just pointing it out. It may seem, i am saying this to you, but my intention is to take this opportunity and point out a general mistake we all may do, including myself. When i read Scriptures, I always, ask myself, am I understanding it the way I want it to mean, or is this really what it says?
Also, it is not like i don't care about people, or their opinion. It is that, if we are talking about the beliefs or teachings of a particular Religion(e.g. Christianity), it is not about anybody's opinion anymore. It is about the Book of the Religion, when its teachings are described.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
India is a secular country, yet there are pressures from Hindu Nationalists to have it become a Hindu country as Pakistan is Muslim. I wonder how that will play out in schools in India and what are the existing arrangements are for religious education of children in India today?

In my opinion, this idea of Hindu nationalism is vastly overblown. Hindus just want the same rights granted to minority faiths.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
It is not like I don't care about people. I am also sorry you felt insulted, but you really shouldn't take it personal at all. I think all people want to see scripture the way they like, and usually want to make it say, what they want it to say. I believe we all tend to do this. So, i am just pointing it out. It may seem, i am saying this to you, but my intention is to take this opportunity and point out a general mistake we all may do, including myself. When i read Scriptures, I always, ask myself, am I understanding it the way I want it to mean, or is this really what it says?

Thank you. Yes, I think it is human nature to see it through our eyes. I don't see that as wrong, though. If god is speaking through people born less than 2,000 years ago and you guys trust them, I honestly don't see the difference in people today. I don't know what time period people stop trusting the divinity of people's words. Probably after the Church started going downhill? Or people started doubting the original Church and trying to go back to Jewish roots when the Bible isn't all Jewish but Roman too?

Outside of my christian experiences, Buddhist do see from their perspective. The Buddha teaches that to be "like him" or like him in Mind, depending on the sect, is investigating (no pun) the teacher. So, basically, you're always seeing if your understanding comes from other people and things (forms of attachment) or do they come from yourself-your Buddha nature. So it's all self-interpretation.

Christianity, I speak from my experiences with god/christ and through christ, that authority, I interpret the bible through how he spoke through me through his body rather than words in a book. So we see differently but I wouldn't say (my words) in general that I'm interpreting it wrong, just my christ-experience came from the body-his people-the Word rather than words and study. I like them both but the words point to the Word not the other way around. Hebrew scriptures point to god not the other way around.

Also, it is not like i don't care about people, or their opinion. It is that, if we are talking about the beliefs or teachings of a particular Religion(e.g. Christianity), it is not about anybody's opinion anymore. It is about the Book of the Religion, when its teachings are described.

Eh. The bible always talks about the body, the people. I honestly don't understand how a book has more authority than the person with whom it was about. Even more so, I don't see how the book is an authority when christ saved people for people to be in service to him through the body when more than a few are present.

Basically, I'm being ironic. I'm using the bible to say the bible isn't an intermediary to lead one to god. Unfortunately, I can't use the body's experiences.

Long story short, I understand through experience and the body of his people. I learn about him in a book. He works through me through the people. So I put trust in the people.

I mean, I haven't seen any verse that christ pointed to scripture for the purpose of scripture pointing to itself. Hebrew scripture points to god. So, is there scripture before Hebrew scripture that points to itself as the intermediary to god rather than Christ?
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Talking of differences builds a sturdy long conversatio. Talking about similarities gets kinda boring when think the same. Probably why some Bahai are bored. If I looked at similarities among differences all the time, I probably wouldn't talk on this thread because everyone would "look" the same. Be free!

I feel a quote coming on....

The members thereof must take counsel together in such wise that no occasion for ill-feeling or discord may arise. This can be attained when every member expresseth with absolute freedom his own opinion and setteth forth his argument. Should anyone oppose, he must on no account feel hurt for not until matters are fully discussed can the right way be revealed. The shining spark of truth cometh forth only after the clash of differing opinions. If after discussion, a decision be carried unanimously well and good; but if, the Lord forbid, differences of opinion should arise, a majority of voices must prevail.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Page 87

Abdu'l-Baha is talking about the functioning of Baha'i assemblies and consultation. When we look at ideas on RF it is a chance to debate and examine the pros and cons, to look at better ideas....

Its generally not a good idea to get upset when someone comes up with a different perspective or set of ideas. I try to avoid either giving or taking offence, another of Abdu'l-Baha's exhortations.

I see you are identifying more with Buddhism...that's exciting. How come?
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
@Vinayaka I had to tell you this. It's related but I didn't want it to be debated. So I started reading again In The Buddha's Words that has many suttas from the Pali Canon. Anyway, Bahai says that The Buddha points to god.

Here is what I found in his The Dhamma about Liberation

"I [The Buddha] do not claim to be awakened to the unsurpassed perfect enlightenment in this world with its devas, Mara (incarnation of Brahma, and Brahma, in this population with its ascetics and brahmins....At Baranasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, this unsurpassed wheel of the Dhamma has been set in motion by the Blessed One, which cannot be stopped by any ascetic or brahmin, or deva, or Mara, or Brahma, or by anyone in the world."

This is in his first discourse where he was trying to find someone to share his first teachings to about the four noble truths and the eightfold method to liberate the mind to cease suffering. Konadanna was actually his first disciple instead of Sariputra.

Anyway, I don't know how much you know of Buddhism; but, I thought it was interesting nonetheless. You can't point to a god that isn't the cause of your enlightenment. The Buddha promoted the Bahai's view of lesser peace (compassion and peace among humanity). He didn't promote greater peace defined by Bahai-peace by unity under one type of god.

If Bahaullah spoke from the god of abraham and The Buddha's enlightenment was not from that god nor Brahma, which god was he pointing to and where is it in the suttas that he was pointing to that god specifically rather than the attributes of any god or deva with whom can possess attribute not necessarily needed only to be attributed to a specific god.

Gosh, that took a lot of breathe out of me.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
The members thereof must take counsel together in such wise that no occasion for ill-feeling or discord may arise. This can be attained when every member expresseth with absolute freedom his own opinion and setteth forth his argument. Should anyone oppose, he must on no account feel hurt for not until matters are fully discussed can the right way be revealed. The shining spark of truth cometh forth only after the clash of differing opinions. If after discussion, a decision be carried unanimously well and good; but if, the Lord forbid, differences of opinion should arise, a majority of voices must prevail.

This gets me thinking two things. Why would your peers think they can't express from their own opinion and the other why would they think division happens from differing opinions when if they were discussed properly, they would "shine sparks of truth"? I know you can't speak for others but this makes me think.

Abdu'l-Baha is talking about the functioning of Baha'i assemblies and consultation. When we look at ideas on RF it is a chance to debate and examine the pros and cons, to look at better ideas....

True. Makes sense.

Its generally not a good idea to get upset when someone comes up with a different perspective or set of ideas. I try to avoid either giving or taking offence, another of Abdu'l-Baha's exhortations.

True. Kinda frustrates me for a couple of minutes until I have to get up and do my thing or eat a cookie. The only two things that frustrate me is skipping questions which I try to single out and not recapping what I say or one point at least so I know anyone has read what I wrote even if 1 percent.

I see you are identifying more with Buddhism...that's exciting. How come?

You know. I don't know when it clicked. I'm still in touch with my family in spirit. Buddhist give reverence to their family in spirit in cultural ways and we know they go through samsara as well. Like Catholicism, Buddhism has ritual and structure. There is a lot of guidance and that, and I found a temple and nice monk fifteen minutes from me that can help me with formal practice. In the morning, on september 3rd, we'll have meditation, them Dharma talk, eat, meditation, and then we will take the precepts. It's an all day thing.

I still have a "Christian" mind when it comes to knowledge from books and some quoting. I understand why Christians and Bahai quote. Im trying not to be attached but reading it, really reading it and creating a meditation altar, and so forth, has changed my perspective.

That, and I can't get to the Spiritualist Church. It's $30/45 minutes from me one way on Sundays.

I'm already a Buddhist just not theravada. Nichiren Buddhism is such a small part that it seems I'm missin' something. That, and I'm learning more about The Buddha's blessings. A lot of American Buddhist separate supernatural from Buddhism. There are devas, gods, and so forth. That's something I'd like to learn about from a Indian point of view rather than abrahamic. A learning experience.

Thank you for asking. :)
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I think all people want to see scripture the way they like, and usually want to make it say, what they want it to say.

Also, I do agree with @Vinayaka

Do you mean all people who believe in sacred-scripture rather than all people in general? I love books and learn a lot about my faith through the oral stories from my family and written suttas from The Buddha. Though, they are not sacred and by no means. If they were, why would I not be a part of their interpretation. Saying it in my own words does not invalidate it. It makes it personal and for many of us makes it to where understanding becomes spiritual not robotic. Anyone can quote Bahaullah but most Christian's won't share an experience in relation to what they have the ability to quote.

So if you don't trust yourself other people, how can you have peace?

In given that people are below god, then by default, your view of people and caring for them is really at surface level. When you care for someone, you get to know them and who they are. Caring means you accept who they are regardless of your faith because it is no longer about you. That's unconditional love.

Maybe it's more appropriate to who have sacred-scripture "could" interpret it that way. Just be mindful just because it's sacred doesn't mean the believer has no part in its interpretation. It depends on the religion.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
"Unity" but not acceptance.



A secondary world language would be great - however, - I like my languages, and culture.

And I don't think a world parliament could keep things under control. Smaller groups obviously can't keep control, - so how exactly is a stretched thin "world" parliament going to work?



Their own affair? Your religion wants to be the world religion, - with a world parliament.

What happens to pagans, and atheists, and homosexuals, then?

The writings bring these into question.

*

It's all about humanity not the Baha'is and by a world language is meant an auxilliary language in addition to our native tongue to expedite easier communications between peoples.

Human rights and equality for all is the essence of our beliefs.

Maybe you could show me where in the Baha'i Teachings it says such things as we want to control everything as I don't know of anything like that.
 
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