How are these Great Beings explained?

[InvestigateTruth]

Several places, here;s two of them. high Baha'i divorce rate, marginal people

Highest rate of divorce amongst US Baha'is- marginal socially inept

So, should we just trust the information in the website is accurate and honest?
Did you know that anybody can make a website, and make up some stuff?
We can only accept, if it is verifiable. How can we verify it?

 

[oldbadger]

Several places, here;s two of them. high Baha'i divorce rate, marginal people

Highest rate of divorce amongst US Baha'is- marginal socially inept

Although I have witnessed a highish break-up rate amongst a small group of Bahais, I didn't realise that it extended as shown in your links.

There is a serious difficulty with a puritan approach to young relationships, and a very serious difficulty with 'no sex before marriage' laws because individuals just don't know what they need for fulfillment, and this can cause breakdowns in several ways.

Couples marry without even knowing each other.

EDIT: I remember that the Bahai engagement to marry is supposed to be a brief time, enough to arrange all and prepare...... maybe about three months. Again....... couples are going into wedlock too quickly, and too strange to each other.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Several places, here;s two of them. high Baha'i divorce rate, marginal people

Highest rate of divorce amongst US Baha'is- marginal socially inept

You have again posted links to posts aimed to discredit the Faith, a link on that page takes you to where you can read this;

N.B. Please rely on my own books and publications as representative of my views. Since at least 1996, I have been a critic of the fanaticism of the Baha'i Faith, a Scientology-like criminal cult, based on Iranian Shiite millennialism and a fraudulent will and testament, which is attempting to create a global theocracy by deceiving and brainwashing its unsuspecting members into a false version of its history and then using them to carry out Baha'i jihads against dissenters and critics.

I hope you look for truth from reliable sources in the future. Tolerance is good.

Regards Tony

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I fully accept you do not eat some of what is offered on that table, but consider it will remain on the table for others to choose.

Tony. It's unrealistic to expect anyone to choose. Wouldn't it be better to set aside your food (and everyone else their food) and maybe make a whole new meal together? You can still use your ingredients but to expect people to eat your food is unrealistic. Maybe work together to build a whole new meal and find a greater dish of expertise then.

Even better, everyone make their own dishes and share from each other without taking each other's recipes? When I used to teach, during our graduation ceremonies, students would bring food from their various countries. It would be weird if everyone brought the same foods.

No division. No debates. Everyone ate from the plates they found delightful and laughed and talked with each other. We didn't have one dish and wait for others to choose while at the same time letting others fix their own foods. We shared foods. We looked at each other in the same manner and same dishes were respected and unique to the people that made them.

We didn't take an American dish and try to find similarities to those in West India. It was a peaceful diversity smorgasbord of food.

Think outside the box for a minute, why one meal and not many?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Although I have witnessed a highish break-up rate amongst a small group of Bahais, I didn't realise that it extended as shown in your links.

This is a link to a Blog from Susan. I find her articles are well balanced and they qive applicable guidance on the subject.

Considering Divorce? Read this First!

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Tony. It's unrealistic to expect anyone to choose. Wouldn't it be better to set aside your food (and everyone else their food) and maybe make a whole new meal together?

Holy Moly, you debate just to debate.

I love pot luck dinners where all bring a dish to share with all, you choose what you like.

I have no more to say

Regards Tony

 

[InvestigateTruth]

.
Since Bahai is not a christian belief

Bahai Faith is a Christian belief, in a sense that Bahaullah proclaimed He is the second coming of Messiah. Bahais believe that in the same way, when Jesus, appeared as the first coming of Messiah, and the Jews did not recognize Him, likewise when He came the second time, now Christians also did not recognize Him.

and you are talking about christian faith,

No, we were not talking about Christian Faith. Remember, we were talking about Issac and Ishmael. This belief was not in the Christian faith. It was in Jewish Bible.

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I rather side with what christians and the bible say first.

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To me it is not so much about taking sides. It is about investigation of truth. The moment we take sides, it means we are biased. Bahaullah says, 'bias', is one of the reasons of blindness. It is in Iqan, where Bahaullah talks about the True seeker....


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I can't see Bahaullah talking for biblical authors and the body of christ. That's very inappropriate.
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I see it differently. Only Bahaullah (the return of Christ) has the right to talk about it, and explain it.



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That, and the tablet has a lot of information (just looked it up).

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Yes, it does. I think 'if' you want to talk about Bahaullah's explanation regarding Ishmael and Issac, you need to read it.

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Do you honestly expect me to change my mind to Bahaullah view of christianity rather than christianity's view of their own faith?

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Honestly, your personal acceptance or rejection of Bahaullah, has no effect on me.


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Investigator. That's like telling me what's in a house of another house owner by offering different layout plans than the one he, the owner, used and drew up to which his house was created from. If you two share the same contractor, I'd assume either you have the same floor plans (so no contradiction on where the rooms are for example) or your floor plans are false since you weren't the one that designed the house.

I have a different view. What made Jesus, 'the Christ', was not His physical body, name, place of Birth. It was 'the Spirit of God', who had manifested in Him. As the Spirit of God is invisible, we cannot see with literal eyes how the same Spirit is Manifested in Bahaullah, and we can be veiled. To recognize the Spirit of God, we need to be able to see, with the eye of Spirit. Being biased, cause our spiritual eye to become blind, and not recognize Him. Like Jesus said, He comes down with the cloud. As Bahaullah explained He meant, to give an analogy, just as the cloud prevent the Sun to be recognized, the wayward imaginations, fanaticism, and 'Bias', becomes like clouds on our spiritual sight, thus preventing us from Recognition of Christ.

 

[Ingledsva]

I wish you a happy and rewarding life.

Regards Tony.

And I also wish for you a happy and rewarding life.

*

 

[Ingledsva]

Why? Both are responsible

A baby needs its mother, nature has made this to be so and it is science that confirms the longer a mother nurses and bonds with her child, the more balanced the childs life will be and more healthy.

In the end this will unfold how it should. Those that choose the path can try to implement the required life.

Stay happy, regards Tony

Women can have jobs, - have babies, - nurse the babies, - and dad can stay home and raise them.

There is no mandate that says because you can produce children, - you are condemned to obey a husband, and spend your life as a housewife, with men in charge.

*

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Women can have jobs, - have babies, - nurse the babies, - and dad can stay home and raise them.

There is no mandate that says because you can produce children, - you are condemned to obey a husband, and spend your life as a housewife, with men in charge.

*

There is no Mandate in the Baha'i Writings for this also

A Bird flys with two wings, a balance needed. That balance to be found with each couple.

Regards Tony

 

[Ingledsva]

It is true that the Baha'i writings advocate the equality of men and women:

Until the reality of equality between man and woman is fully established and attained, the highest social development of mankind is not possible. Even granted that woman is inferior to man in some degree of capacity or accomplishment, this or any other distinction would continue to be productive of discord and trouble. The only remedy is education, opportunity; for equality means equal qualification.
(Abdu'l-Baha - The Promulgation of Universal Peace)

And among the teachings of Bahá’u’lláh is the equality of women and men. The world of humanity has two wings—one is women and the other men. Not until both wings are equally developed can the bird fly. Should one wing remain weak, flight is impossible. Not until the world of women becomes equal to the world of men in the acquisition of virtues and perfections, can success and prosperity be attained as they ought to be.
(Selections from the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá)

When you say that Baha'is want women in traditional roles, it sounds as if we don't want women in the workforce alongside men as equals. That of course of not true.

And let it be known once more that until woman and man recognize and realize equality, social and political progress here or anywhere will not be possible.
(Abdu'l-Baha - The Promulgation of Universal Peace)

Women have equal rights with men upon earth; in religion and society they are a very important element. As long as women are prevented from attaining their highest possibilities, so long will men be unable to achieve the greatness which might be theirs.
(The Promulgation of Universal Peace)

It is true that traditional roles such as being a mother are seen as being of the utmost importance.

For mothers are the first educators, the first mentors; and truly it is the mothers who determine the happiness, the future greatness, the courteous ways and learning and judgement, the understanding and the faith of their little ones.
Selections from the writings of Abdu'l-Baha

Does that limit women's role to the home? No.

This by no means implies that these functions are inflexibly fixed and cannot be changed and adjusted to suit particular family situations, nor does it mean that the place of the woman is confined to the home. Rather, while primary responsibility is assigned, it is anticipated that fathers would play a significant role in the education of the children and women could also be breadwinners. As you rightly indicated, ‘Abdu’l-Bahá encouraged women to ‘participate fully and equally in the affairs of the world’.
(Universal House of Justice, Lights of Guidance, p. 626)

In fact women should be taking their place alongside men in all fields of human endeavour

In the Dispensation of Bahá’u’lláh, women are advancing side by side with men. There is no area or instance where they will lag behind: they have equal rights with men, and will enter, in the future, into all branches of the administration of society. Such will be their elevation that, in every area of endeavor, they will occupy the highest levels in the human world.
(The Universal House of Justice, 1980 Dec 28, The Relationship Between Husband and Wife)

It is true that women do not serve on just one administrative body in the Baha'i Faith, the Universal House of Justice. However there is excellent representation of women on our local and National Assemblies as well as the institution of the counsellors. There are about 20,000 assemblies throughout the world in most countries.

I my locality where there is a community of about 40 Baha'is our local assembly has six women and three men. We have extremely capable and talented women in many spheres of the community.

Indeed, - and no true equality until women can be in all positions in your religion, - as you want your religion in charge of the world.

It is obvious from the writings, - and I have actually read many of the books, - that this "equality" stops at - MEN - are in charge, and women are supposed to perform traditional rolls, - And accept man as in charge of the family, and church.

Again - no true equality.

*

 

[Vinayaka]

Both links refer to one study done in the USA 30 years ago, They refer to an 'internal Baha'i Household' study whatever that means. No actual figures are provided so we have no idea about the validity of this one 'study'.

True. But I personally have no reason to doubt it either. With the hard-set minds I've seen, it would be difficult to come to compromise if either person, fro example, expressed any doubts about infallibility or other dogma. Divorce isn't easy in Hinduism either, for similar reasons. Baha'i' statistics are incredibly difficult to figure, for lots of reasons. The small number makes it so it may not even be on the charts of major researchers, there is a tendency to really downplay or altogether ignore any negatives, and more. But I digress. Certainly I've never sen any studies to the contrary either. Lots of claims, but no actual studies.

 

[Vinayaka]

Could it be you are not Tolerant of what Baha'u'llah has offered from God. He is the Mesenger and we but share what is on the Table.

Not a matter of tolerance, but one of personal belief. Other people can believe whatever they want, just don't try extending it to me. I already have way more than I need in my own faith. I would probably like Australia, but I'm not subject to Australian laws.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Holy Moly, you debate just to debate.

I love pot luck dinners where all bring a dish to share with all, you choose what you like.

I have no more to say

Regards Tony

Think about it. If you put one dish on the table and say we have a choice to choose, I'm challenging you and saying what if it we said we have many foods to choose from. You did not express many choices just one. Now you're saying many. So that is confusing.

Also, you're turning this into a debate. It's just a question and observation from your post. I thought the food example was good but you saw similarities, so I guess learning from my point of view is kinda moot.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Honestly, your personal acceptance or rejection of Bahaullah, has no effect on me.

Why would it?

I see it differently. Only Bahaullah (the return of Christ) has the right to talk about it, and explain it.

Good. We see differences. That is not bad. I just side with Christians because it is their faith not Bahaullah's interpretation of it.

Yes, it does. I think 'if' you want to talk about Bahaullah's explanation regarding Ishmael and Issac, you need to read it.

You know how many tablets there are on that list? And if I were to read it (if you interested in hearing my point of view at the very least instead of debating me wrong) I would probably be the only one to learn from it. Again, it sounds like you're only interested in your views. If you didn't promote unity, then so be. Since you do, your goal and your conversation completely contradict each other.

If you gave me a passage that Ishmael was to be sacrificed and not Isaac, why would I believe Bahaullah over the god of the jews and what they know and evidence from their tablets etc?

What motivation or evidence do you want me to find - what do you want me to analysis - with both of views? and how do you want me to see your view as opposed to the views of the people who believe in the faith you say is incorrect?

I have a different view. What made Jesus, 'the Christ', was not His physical body, name, place of Birth. It was 'the Spirit of God', who had manifested in Him. As the Spirit of God is invisible, we cannot see with literal eyes how the same Spirit is Manifested in Bahaullah, and we can be veiled. To recognize the Spirit of God, we need to be able to see, with the eye of Spirit. Being biased, cause our spiritual eye to become blind, and not recognize Him. Like Jesus said, He comes down with the cloud. As Bahaullah explained He meant, to give an analogy, just as the cloud prevent the Sun to be recognized, the wayward imaginations, fanaticism, and 'Bias', becomes like clouds on our spiritual sight, thus preventing us from Recognition of Christ.

Okay. This is alright. We differ. Nothing wrong with that.

My point is not that your belief is wrong. It's your belief. My overall point is it is not christianity, not even close to what it teaches. You're changing the bible that you're saying in order to know christianity i need to read bahaullah's words not christ's.

I find that totally inappropriate.

 

[Vinayaka]

This is a link to a Blog from Susan. I find her articles are well balanced and they qive applicable guidance on the subject.

Considering Divorce? Read this First!

Regards Tony

I've read quite a bit of her stuff. It always just sounds like more Baha'i' propaganda/preaching to me. My point is that there is bias all around. Baha'i' sites are always overwhelmingly positive, presenting some unrealistic utopian faith, and anti-Baha'i' sites can be over the top. The truth most likely lies somewhere in the middle.

Being a non Baha'i' but not an anti-Baha'i', I read all of it with open eyes.

 

[Ingledsva]

There is no Mandate in the Baha'i Writings for this also

A Bird flys with two wings, a balance needed. That balance to be found with each couple.

Regards Tony

That is not actually true. We are being told here that women are equal and Adrian posted this -

"In the Dispensation of Bahá’u’lláh, women are advancing side by side with men. There is no area or instance where they will lag behind: they have equal rights with men, and will enter, in the future, into all branches of the administration of society. Such will be their elevation that, in every area of endeavor, they will occupy the highest levels in the human world.
(The Universal House of Justice, 1980 Dec 28, The Relationship Between Husband and Wife)"

However the writings tell us as I posted, - that women are to perform the traditional rolls with -"and it is not allowable to slacken therein at all!"

O maid-servants of the Merciful! It is incumbent upon you to train the children from their earliest babyhood! It is incumbent upon you to beautify their morals! It is incumbent upon you to attend to them under all aspects and circumstances, inasmuch as God—glorified and exalted is He! —hath ordained mothers to be the primary trainers of children and infants. This is a great and important affair and a high and exalted position, and it is not allowable to slacken therein at all!1159 `Abdu’l-Bahā, Tablets of Abdul-Baha Abbas (Bahā’ī Publishing Committee, 1909 edition), p. 606.

AND as shown - servitude and submissiveness - to husbands and men in general.

O Handmaids of the Self-Sustaining Lord! Exert your efforts so that you may attain the honour and privilege ordained for women. Undoubtedly the greatest glory of women is servitude at His Threshold and submissiveness at His door; it is the possession of a vigilant heart, and praise of the incomparable God; it is heartfelt love towards other handmaids and spotless chastity; it is obedience to and consideration for their husbands and the education and care of their children; and it is tranquillity, and dignity, perseverance in the remembrance of the Lord, and the utmost enkindlement and attraction.1163 Helen Bassett Hornby, Lights of Guidance: A Bahā’ī Reference File, chap. XVI, no. 749.

SO - NOPE - No GO!

By "Balance" - Baha'i still mean women popping out babies and raising them, and men being in charge.

So - I guess - you can be a congresswomen, - as long as you have popped out babies and raised them first, - and then get permission from your master/husband to now pursue YOUR dreams.

Those same Baha'i writings say for husband and wife to discuss it when they have a disagreement, - BUT - then says the HUSBAND makes the final decision.

The Baha'i writings do raise the status of women where most other patriarchal religions don't, - BUT - not to the point of true equality.

The men still want to be in total charge. They still attach male right to rule with a God saying so. Baloney.

*

 

[Vinayaka]

Re divorce ... here's another link, just a discussion on reddit about it, not an anti-Baha'i' site, but has differing opinions too.

A couple of questions for you re divorce in Bahai community • r/bahai

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Indeed, - and no true equality until women can be in all positions in your religion, - as you want your religion in charge of the world.

It is obvious from the writings, - and I have actually read many of the books, - that this "equality" stops at - MEN - are in charge, and women are supposed to perform traditional rolls, - And accept man as in charge of the family, and church.Again - no true equality.*

May you find Equality is servitude to each other, from both men an women.

That this is a path to true happiness.

You did not express many choices just one. Now you're saying many. So that is confusing.

The Banquet Host has provided all the choices, has left no one without a favorite dish.

All Humanity are at the Banquet table.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

By "Balance" - Baha'i still mean women popping out babies and raising them, and men being in charge.

I guess we are lucky our parents popped us all out. It takes two by the way

May you find happiness.

Regards Tony