Spiritual Enlightenment: what is it/what it is.

[crowfeather]

A bit of a non-answer. For a second, I thought you might actually give a better answer. Oh well...

It is not a spectacular answer, unless you see that it is. And you will not see it for what it is, if you can not recognize its Truth.
Enlightenment, in a single concept, is the embracing of Mystery.

 

[YmirGF]

It is not a spectacular answer, unless you see that it is. And you will not see it for what it is, if you can not recognize its Truth.
Enlightenment, in a single concept, is the embracing of Mystery.

A bit better. I'd change that last line to read, "Being is a fearless journey into uncertainty."

 

[Polymath257]

Humans don't know much. You know this much. To know more, a human must investigate, rather than simply offer up opinions, theorize, and imagine.
Many say that nobody can know certain things. They say this because they, themselves, don't know certain things.
Spiritual Enlightenment transcends being human as humans know being human.
It is the means by which a human becomes superhuman.
The approach to Godhood, while still in physical form.

Would you like to know what Enlightenment is? What it's about? What it's like?
Rather than simply ridicule and abuse anyone daring to suggest he knows?

Ask.

Well, I would like to know what *you* think enlightenment is and what it is about.

After that, the question then becomes why I should believe your claims are justified. I might need some convincing that you arrived at your conclusions in a way that is valid. Why should I believe you as opposed to the millions of others who have differing opinions? How do I determine whether someone is actually an authority or has merely convinced themselves of certain opinions? Or, worse, they they are not a fraud (which I am *not* accusing you of, by the way---but frauds do exist).

 

[crowfeather]

YmirGF:
Well, it's not about what you think, is it?
What you'd do obviously isn't what not-you would do.
But a fearless journey into uncertainty, is a thoroughly decent description of what a human must deal with to approach Dharma.
To penetrate fear and dare to die, may yield eternal life.
Known to be True.

 

[Polymath257]

It is not a spectacular answer, unless you see that it is. And you will not see it for what it is, if you can not recognize its Truth.
Enlightenment, in a single concept, is the embracing of Mystery.

Mystery simply means we can learn more. All mysteries can be investigated and once we have answers, they are no longer mysteries. So, I do not embrace 'Mystery'. In fact, I fight it at every turn by attempting to answer the questions and learn something new.

 

[icehorse]

He doesn't. He knows it for what it is: an ego-driven cul-de-sac.

Lao Tzu was far more open minded than you are.

 

[crowfeather]

Well, I would like to know what *you* think enlightenment is and what it is about.

After that, the question then becomes why I should believe your claims are justified. I might need some convincing that you arrived at your conclusions in a way that is valid. Why should I believe you as opposed to the millions of others who have differing opinions? How do I determine whether someone is actually an authority or has merely convinced themselves of certain opinions? Or, worse, they they are not a fraud (which I am *not* accusing you of, by the way---but frauds do exist).

I don't think anything. That is how, and why, I know it to be so. Along with having attained it, some 25 years ago.
As for why you'd accept any of it: do you fear being gullible?

 

[Polymath257]

I don't think anything. That is how, and why, I know it to be so. Along with having attained it, some 25 years ago.
As for why you'd accept any of it: do you fear being gullible?

Not a fear so much as a desire to distinguish truth from falsity.

Again, you *claim* to having attained it 25 years ago. Why should I believe you? How would I know you are not simply deluded?

 

[crowfeather]

Mystery simply means we can learn more. All mysteries can be investigated and once we have answers, they are no longer mysteries. So, I do not embrace 'Mystery'. In fact, I fight it at every turn by attempting to answer the questions and learn something new.

Not so. Your view is a popular one, but so is knowing nothing about anything.
Mystery is a thing in itself, once a human goes beyond thinking it knows what Mystery is.
In fact, Mystery is The Key.
You want Enlightenment? You need to embrace Mystery.

 

[crowfeather]

Lao Tzu was far more open minded than you are.

Is that where socialists get their ideas about what 'open-minded' means, and that they are it?
I suggest to you that Lao Tzu isn't remotely what you consider 'open-minded'.
He has moved far beyond employing a piece of grey fat to penetrate the Mysteries of existence.

 

[Fool]

Not so. Your view is a popular one, but so is knowing nothing about anything.
Mystery is a thing in itself, once a human goes beyond thinking it knows what Mystery is.
In fact, Mystery is The Key.
You want Enlightenment? You need to embrace Mystery.

the awe of love is the beginning of wisdom.

tantric

giggles

 

[shunyadragon]

Humans don't know much. You know this much. To know more, a human must investigate, rather than simply offer up opinions, theorize, and imagine.
Many say that nobody can know certain things. They say this because they, themselves, don't know certain things.
Spiritual Enlightenment transcends being human as humans know being human.
It is the means by which a human becomes superhuman.
The approach to Godhood, while still in physical form.

Would you like to know what Enlightenment is? What it's about? What it's like?
Rather than simply ridicule and abuse anyone daring to suggest he knows?

Ask.

I believe goal of enlightenment, like in Taoism, is to know less.

In general humans claim to know too much.

The empty glass contains the most.

 

[crowfeather]

Not a fear so much as a desire to distinguish truth from falsity.
Again, you *claim* to having attained it 25 years ago. Why should I believe you? How would I know you are not simply deluded?

What is it about my words that compels you to label them 'claims'?
They are not claims. They are statements.
Your lack of trust in your own ability to know what is what and which is which, is something you might want to investigate.
You will observe, if you look closely enough, that I do not exhibit such mistrust in my own faculties.
Some say this is ego.
I smile at them.
They would know.

 

[Polymath257]

Not so. Your view is a popular one, but so is knowing nothing about anything.
Mystery is a thing in itself, once a human goes beyond thinking it knows what Mystery is.
In fact, Mystery is The Key.
You want Enlightenment? You need to embrace Mystery.

So to achieve enlightenment, I have to forgo actually having answers?

 

[crowfeather]

I believe goal of enlightenment, like in Taoism, is to know less.
In general humans claim to know too much.
The empty glass contains the most.

There is no goal of enlightenment. It is what it is, but can only be approached by jettisoning all one thinks one knows.
Because, truth is, one knows nothing about anything; one only thinks one does.
Lao Tzu says the master knows nothing.
This does not mean he doesn't know anything.
It means he knows what he needs to know, as he needs to know it, because he does not carry it around with him.

 

[Polymath257]

What is it about my words that compels you to label them 'claims'?
They are not claims. They are statements.

They are statements, exactly. So they are claims. You claim them to be true.

The question is whether you have the authority to make such determinations.

Your lack of trust in your own ability to know what is what and which is which, is something you might want to investigate.

Oh, I have and I do. Which is why I require testable hypotheses with unambiguous predictions.

You will observe, if you look closely enough, that I do not exhibit such mistrust in my own faculties.
Some say this is ego.
I smile at them.
They would know.

All I see is someone that is sure of their own opinion. That doesn't make me sure of your opinion.

So, what convinced you that you are correct?

 

[crowfeather]

So to achieve enlightenment, I have to forgo actually having answers?

Answers stop you in your tracks, don't they?
When was the last time you further investigated anything to which you already had the answers?
Once you think you know about something, you put it in a compartment and categorize it.
You rarely take it out again and wonder what it is.

The enlightened life is one in which it is forever unknown, and thus forever new, forever mysterious, forever engaging, forever precious.
Life is to be lived, moment by moment. It is not to be known.

 

[Polymath257]

There is no goal of enlightenment. It is what it is, but can only be approached by jettisoning all one thinks one knows.
Because, truth is, one knows nothing about anything; one only thinks one does.
Lao Tzu says the master knows nothing.
This does not mean he doesn't know anything.
It means he knows what he needs to know, as he needs to know it, because he does not carry it around with him.

Again, your claims. Why should I believe what you say?

And, when I look within, I find your words to be silliness and nonsense. Should I trust myself in this evaluation?

 

[Polymath257]

Answers stop you in your tracks, don't they?
When was the last time you further investigated anything to which you already had the answers?

Almost every day. There is always more to learn.

Once you think you know about something, you put it in a compartment and categorize it.
You rarely take it out again and wonder what it is.

Perhaps that is what *you* do. I tryt o continually go over why I believe what I believe. To search for flaws in my reasoning and to pry out the falsehoods.

The enlightened life is one in which it is forever unknown, and thus forever new, forever mysterious, forever engaging, forever precious.
Life is to be lived, moment by moment. It is not to be known.

But knowing is part of the experience of life. You reject one part while embracing another. Embrace both experience and knowledge.

 

[crowfeather]

So, what convinced you that you are correct?

When you fall from a tower, if you survive, do you doubt that you fell from a tower?
You know you fell, because you fell.
Enlightenment is a little like that. It's not something you wonder if you did. You bear the scars of the most Real event in your entire life.
It is death, without the one-way nature of death. Thus, it is life, in the raw, for Real.