How are these Great Beings explained?

[loverofhumanity]

This is completely contradicting what you said way earlier.

1. You cant accept diversity if you dont accept individual spirituality rather than global wars. Thats defining peoples faith by other peoples actions.

2. If bahaullah is reconcilling religions, how will he reconcile religions that dont believe in god snd others who do not believe in the god of abraham? What type of reconcilliation method does not have to do with god?

3. You ssid before that people have Yet to come to bahaullah.

You do not need bahaullah for greater peace.

You're misunderstanding my posts. I've always believed in unity in diversity. That's a Baha'i principle. I told you way back we believed in unity in diversity.

I don't understand your point 1. We accept people's individual diversity. What has global wars got to do with it? Your sentence in point 1 doesn't make grammatical sense. Could you please clarify?

Point 2. I mentioned many, many times our common humanity will reconcile us. I said in a post or two ago that atheist, non religionist , all would be reconciled through acceptance of their common humanity and by accepting their diversity.

Point 3. Can you be more clear about what you mean about people coming to Baha'u'llah?

What I have said is initially is

1.people will establish world peace without becoming Baha'is.
2. At some point in time, maybe 600 years time, the Bahá'í Faith will have its 'golden age' which we think will be a time when most of humanity would have accepted Baha'u'llah.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I will need to vet more information other than the links I gave you. This is pretty much the same thinv you did with me. Told me again bahai belief to prove bahai beliec true.

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Not really. I did not only give a link. I actually presented an example in this thread before for Vinayaka.

In order to present that a prophecy is fulfilled, we need to quote from the Text of a Prophecy, that was written thousands years before, and then show, how that Prophecy came true later, by showing 'Verifiable Historical Information.

Let me demonstrate the example again:

Bahaullah wrote that His mission began when He was imprisoned in Siah Chal, which according to history was at the end of 1852. Bahaullah passed away in year 1892.

So, from the time Bahaullah said His mission began till He passed away, there are 40 years.

But now, see thousands years before Bahaullah, in Islamic Sources, it was Prophesied as follows:


“In the last period of time, the Almighty Allah will raise a man among the illiterate masses whom He will support by His angels and protect his helpers, help him through His signs and he will conquer the whole world. All would enter the fold of religion willingly or unwillingly. He would fill the earth with justice, equity and proof. No disbeliever will remain without accepting faith. During his rule, even the wild beasts would become tame.
And the earth will through up its vegetation. Blessings will descend from the sky. The treasures buried in the earth will be exposed and he would rule the world for forty years. Fortunate would be one who lives till that time and hears his speech.”
Shiavault - 31



Can you present something like this, about the other person you were mentioning that claimed to be fulfilment of Buddha prophecies?

Look, if you say, the year, or timeline matches, you must show it precisely matches. Even 1 or 2 years, less or more, cannot be said, it matches. As I showed here, Bahaullah's Mission lasted precisely 40 years, as it was prophesied before.


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If god can talk to the prophets directlybut not to you, I dont see hos your fsith is true. .

Why not? Would you like to give a logical reason that if God does not speak to ordinary people directly, but He talks directly with Prophets only, then that Faith is not true? For example, you can talk with me, and I can talk with you, but we cannot talk with Animals or plants in the same way. Does it mean, we do not exist, just because animals or plants are incapable to understand our words? I think that shows the limitation of the animals and plants, not us, right? The Manifestations only outwardly look like human, but inwardly, they are like a Mirror reflecting image of God....so, God is capable to talk to us anytime He wants, by Manifesting Himself among us in form of a human. He is able to do what He wills. But according to His Wisdom, He only Manifests Himself when the Religion of God needs to be renewed. If it was His wish to appear among us in the form of a human at all the time, He could have.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Sorry for the heaven spelli g errors. Im walking

Oh dear, you are getting addicted to RF. Lol

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The original teachings in the Holy Book is what people are supposed to follow and obey.

It's people who ADD doctrines, dogmas and rituals and turn the original religion into something it was not meant to be as laid out in the Holy Scriptures.

So it IS people who created the false dogmas who created the wars. The dogmas and doctrines weren't originally in the Hoky Books - they were added by who? , - the people, not by God.

Because it is people who change their religion then they are responsible for any bad dogmas that cause wars.

Religion in its unadulterated form only teaches good butbonce it has become polluted by people's 'additions', it gradually needs to be renewed.

The difference is I dont believe in false dogmas. If its the people that causes problems as @loverofhumanity says, adding to dogma to dogma world peace shouldnt be an issue. Its all inspird scripture. Time period should make something sacred and something recently not. Thats just silly as if god had a tims where he just stop inspiring people.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Oh dear, you are getting addicted to RF. Lol

They should have an RFA (like AA) Program or something, lol

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Not really. I did not only give a link. I actually presented an example in this thread before for Vinayaka.

In order to present that a prophecy is fulfilled, we need to quote from the Text of a Prophecy, that was written thousands years before, and then show, how that Prophecy came true later, by showing 'Verifiable Historical Information.

Let me demonstrate the example again:

Bahaullah wrote that His mission began when He was imprisoned in Siah Chal, which according to history was at the end of 1852. Bahaullah passed away in year 1892.

So, from the time Bahaullah said His mission began till He passed away, there are 40 years.

But now, see thousands years before Bahaullah, in Islamic Sources, it was Prophesied as follows:


“In the last period of time, the Almighty Allah will raise a man among the illiterate masses whom He will support by His angels and protect his helpers, help him through His signs and he will conquer the whole world. All would enter the fold of religion willingly or unwillingly. He would fill the earth with justice, equity and proof. No disbeliever will remain without accepting faith. During his rule, even the wild beasts would become tame.
And the earth will through up its vegetation. Blessings will descend from the sky. The treasures buried in the earth will be exposed and he would rule the world for forty years. Fortunate would be one who lives till that time and hears his speech.”
Shiavault - 31



Can you present something like this, about the other person you were mentioning that claimed to be fulfilment of Buddha prophecies?

Look, if you say, the year, or timeline matches, you must show it precisely matches. Even 1 or 2 years, less or more, cannot be said, it matches. As I showed here, Bahaullah's Mission lasted precisely 40 years, as it was prophesied before.


.
Why not? Would you like to give a logical reason that if God does not speak to ordinary people directly, but He talks directly with Prophets only, then that Faith is not true? For example, you can talk with me, and I can talk with you, but we cannot talk with Animals or plants in the same way. Does it mean, we do not exist, just because animals or plants are incapable to understand our words? I think that shows the limitation of the animals and plants, not us, right? The Manifestations only outwardly look like human, but inwardly, they are like a Mirror reflecting image of God....so, God is capable to talk to us anytime He wants, by Manifesting Himself among us in form of a human. He is able to do what He wills. But according to His Wisdom, He only Manifests Himself when the Religion of God needs to be renewed. If it was His wish to appear among us in the form of a human at all the time, He could have.

Im out the house. The gosho is two books bith two textbook sized with hundred of letters.

You are saying Bahaullah says prophecg X on Y year with Z evidence has been fulfilled

Fine.

Then you say later because bahaullah says X and the years match up, poof! A prophecy has been fulfilled. Its called syncronicity.

Life does not work that way. If you believe in buddhism, e everything happens by cause and effect. In the lotus sutra, The Buddha predicted there would be a votary (he used another name) to spread his teachings. This Buddha will experience jeleousy, harshness, and spit at this sutra. Nichiren concluded the prophecy of the lotus was referring to him. The japanese war and his views of ither buddbist sects "came true." History states X tike period I gave in the link. Nichiren says X has occured (actually, he is in the middle of the war itself). He was spit at, they were about to behead him.


This is NOT a divi e revelation and prophecy. Many people before and today make guesses of future events. I havr seen them come true. Spiritualist believe in the future events come true by clairavyance. Others call it from god. Its not just in the past.

Again, how does god stop making prophets? I mean, bahaullah isnt an alien. He lived on this earth just as you and I do. I dont see how his words are much more inspired then say mine who can write a prophecy, come true later by everything connected to each ither, and it be normal.

Not divine. Not special. Its life. Why is it so important to have prophecies? I know you cant understand god withiut your prophets but I dont understand hat.

You can repeat it until your fingers cramp up but eplain it another way. I do not get jt.

 

[loverofhumanity]

The difference is I dont believe in false dogmas. If its the people that causes problems as @loverofhumanity says, adding to dogma to dogma world peace shouldnt be an issue. Its all inspird scripture. Time period should make something sacred and something recently not. Thats just silly as if god had a tims where he just stop inspiring people.

Consider this. The Quran only teaches defensive warfare. According to it you cannot attack anyone unless they attack you first.

Now, the Umayyads went against that law and built a culture of conquering. Today's terrorists follow their example which is not based on the Quran but on their own whims and added doctrines.
You can see today clearly how the added doctrines have become an obstacle to world peace. If the Quran only was followed there would be no terrorism.

Only the Holy Book is sacred not what Umayyads added or changed.

God sends His Messenger and Book then He leaves it up to the people to choose to follow a His way or not.

 

[Vinayaka]

It's people who ADD doctrines, dogmas and rituals and turn the original religion into something it was not meant to be as laid out in the Holy Scriptures.

In my view this is what Baha'i' does as well. Most of your criticisms about other religions also apply to Baha'i'. Of course you don't see it.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The original teachings in the Holy Book is what people are supposed to follow and obey.

1. Yes. People do follow the original teachings in the HOly book. You're not giving them credit yet you say you respect them.

It's people who ADD doctrines, dogmas and rituals and turn the original religion into something it was not meant to be as laid out in the Holy Scriptures.

2. When did god say he no longer inspires people to continue his doctrine?

3. The original teachings are still there. The rituals, dogma, and doctrine you dislike helps the individual follow the original teachings. You're not giving them credit.

So it IS people who created the false dogmas who created the wars. The dogmas and doctrines weren't originally in the Hoky Books - they were added by who? , - the people, not by God.

4. There is no false doctrines. Divinity didn't just stop at a specific time period. You're not giving people credit.

Because it is people who change their religion then they are responsible for any bad dogmas that cause wars.

5. You said religion now you said people. I agree people cause wars. I disagree people change religion that leads to wars. That is not the purpose of religion.

Religion in its unadulterated form only teaches good butbonce it has become polluted by people's 'additions', it gradually needs to be renewed.

6. When I was in the Catholic Church all the added teachings you guys claim are there help many people to prevent wars. Actually it helped me a lot.

You're not giving people credit.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You're misunderstanding my posts. I've always believed in unity in diversity. That's a Baha'i principle. I told you way back we believed in unity in diversity.

1. Diversity does not mean having other people's prophets in your faith. Diversity has boundaries. Your unity is based on a different foundation than most other religions. Your diversity is based on one foundation. That's not how diversity works.

2. It's not diversity if everything is founded on god.

I don't understand your point 1. We accept people's individual diversity. What has global wars got to do with it? Your sentence in point 1 doesn't make grammatical sense. Could you please clarify?

3. Acceptance at surface level. You view and define other people's religions from a Bahai perspective. That's not acceptance of the truth of another person's religions. You repeatedly proved this by your Bahaullah quotes (passive aggressive disagreement).

Point 2. I mentioned many, many times our common humanity will reconcile us. I said in a post or two ago that atheist, non religionist , all would be reconciled through acceptance of their common humanity and by accepting their diversity.

4. Again, I ask. Humanity? Just as we are all human beings?

Point 3. Can you be more clear about what you mean about people coming to Baha'u'llah?

5. You said people have yet to come to Bahaullah's teachings. Then you said people can choose whether they want to follow his teachings. Then you say Bahaullah came to reconcile other religions teachings. Then you say Bahai accepts people's teachings how they are.

Get it?

1.people will establish world peace without becoming Baha'is.
2. At some point in time, maybe 600 years time, the Bahá'í Faith will have its 'golden age' which we think will be a time when most of humanity would have accepted Baha'u'llah

6. You said that without Bahaullah's teachings, people will always be at war. You continue to say we need prophets.

We do not. Understand?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Consider this. The Quran only teaches defensive warfare. According to it you cannot attack anyone unless they attack you first.

Now, the Umayyads went against that law and built a culture of conquering. Today's terrorists follow their example which is not based on the Quran but on their own whims and added doctrines.
You can see today clearly how the added doctrines have become an obstacle to world peace. If the Quran only was followed there would be no terrorism.

Only the Holy Book is sacred not what Umayyads added or changed.

God sends His Messenger and Book then He leaves it up to the people to choose to follow a His way or not.

Why does he leave it up to us to follow?

If he accepts diversity, why the statement?

 

[Vinayaka]

Yes, that's true,unfortunately some evil minded people exploit religion for their own selfish purposes and destroy and kill in the name of God. Those who do these things have lost their humanity and become monsters.

It's all in degrees. like money. One cent and a million dollars are both money. As you already know I already consider any proselytising faith to be himsa as well. But yes it is in a matter of degrees, I'll give you that. Using the sword to convert would yield more bad karma than wielding the intellectual argument, but its still bad karma, in my view.

 

[Vinayaka]

Baha'u'llah was prophesied because Baha'u'llah said he was prophesied isn't a valid argument in anyone's book but the Baha'i' book.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Im out the house. The gosho is two books bith two textbook sized with hundred of letters.

You are saying Bahaullah says prophecg X on Y year with Z evidence has been fulfilled

Fine.

Then you say later because bahaullah says X and the years match up, poof! A prophecy has been fulfilled. Its called syncronicity.

Life does not work that way. If you believe in buddhism, e everything happens by cause and effect. In the lotus sutra, The Buddha predicted there would be a votary (he used another name) to spread his teachings. This Buddha will experience jeleousy, harshness, and spit at this sutra. Nichiren concluded the prophecy of the lotus was referring to him. The japanese war and his views of ither buddbist sects "came true." History states X tike period I gave in the link. Nichiren says X has occured (actually, he is in the middle of the war itself). He was spit at, they were about to behead him.


This is NOT a divi e revelation and prophecy. Many people before and today make guesses of future events. I havr seen them come true. Spiritualist believe in the future events come true by clairavyance. Others call it from god. Its not just in the past.

Again, how does god stop making prophets? I mean, bahaullah isnt an alien. He lived on this earth just as you and I do. I dont see how his words are much more inspired then say mine who can write a prophecy, come true later by everything connected to each ither, and it be normal.

Not divine. Not special. Its life. Why is it so important to have prophecies? I know you cant understand god withiut your prophets but I dont understand hat.

You can repeat it until your fingers cramp up but eplain it another way. I do not get jt.

No. That is not exactly what I said. Actually it is quite simple. I gave an example, I said Islamic Sources state that, when the Promised one (return of christ) appears, He lives for 40 years then He passes away. And What happened was that when Bahaullah claimed His mission as the Promised One began, He then 40 years later passed away.
I don't know how simpler I state that.
Or Islamic sources state that, the Mahdi appears 1000 year after Islamic Revelation, and then He lives Seven Years. What happened was that, the Bab claimed He is the Promised Mahdi, precisely 1000 years after the Last Imam of Shia, and then seven years later He was Martyred.
So, I am saying, the Islamic Sources state that, the duration of the mission of the Mahdi is Seven years, and the duration of the mission of Christ when He returns is Forty years. So, did it come to pass. The Bab claimed He is Mahdi, and His mission lasted to the Seventh year, then He was Martyred, and Bahaullah mission lasted for forty years, because He passed in the fortieth year.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Baha'u'llah was prophesied because Baha'u'llah said he was prophesied isn't a valid argument in anyone's book but the Baha'i' book.

It is one of the Most Testable Proofs, thus one of the strongest arguments.
Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I believe in differences and they do not cause division. We don't need Oneness in all faiths with a common foundation to have no wars. We need mutual respect, keeping one's boundaries, working together, without compromising our beliefs (and letting people reconcile and compromise ours).

The greater part of your comment about the need for mutual respect, is the aim of our 'Unity in Diversity', this is the aim of the Lesser Peace given by Baha'u'llah.

Thus if you can work with the Baha'i Faith and all other Faiths in obtaining this Mutual Respect, then we have the agreement that all the discussion is aimed towards.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

It is one of the Most Testable Proofs, thus one of the strongest arguments.
Regards Tony

By Baha'i', sure.

But saying I'm the president of the United States doesn't mean I'm the president of the United States.

As for this claimed 'prophecy' the Christians have denied it, the Muslims have denied it, and they're the guys that supposedly made it. So I'll go with what they said, and their interpretation. That seems more logical, that going backwards, saying, 'oh yes, they predicted I would come. Do you know how many people have claimed to be the Return of the Messiah. The wiki list is fairly long, and there are hundreds more. There have been at least two come to RF, maybe more.

List of messiah claimants - Wikipedia

List of people claimed to be Jesus - Wikipedia (Baha'u'llah made this list.)

So many Abrahamic prophecies, like the end of the world on certain dates, have just failed miserably. In fact personally don't know of a single prophesy that has verifiably come true without lots of creative interpretation. Perhaps some of Nostradamus's stuff was close.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

As for this claimed 'prophecy' the Christians have denied it, the Muslims have denied it, and they're the guys that supposedly made it.

.

The Muslims sources state that, when the Mahdi appears, the Muslims deny Him. So, did it come to pass!
No!, not only that. But their sources alludes When Mahdi comes, they kill Him, and will say we killed Him, the same way the Jews said, they killed Jesus. So, did it come to pass.

 

[Vinayaka]

The Muslims sources state that, when the Mahdi appears, the Muslims deny Him. So, did it come to pass!

List of people claimed to be Jesus - Wikipedia They denied all the other Messiah claimants too, didn't they? By your logic, that would make every single messiah claimant the new messiah, even the ones who frequent RF, lol.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

List of people claimed to be Jesus - Wikipedia They denied all the other Messiah claimants too, didn't they? By your logic, that would make every single messiah claimant the new messiah, even the ones who frequent RF, lol.

No! The Islamic sources state that, when 1000 years is passed, a person whose name is alluded to be Ali Muhammad, appears in Persia, who is the Mahdi, He reveals a New Book, and abolishes the Rites before Him, He lives Seven years.

So, did it come to pass. Now show me another Mahdi Claimant that matches all these signs and descriptions. Not just one or two. No body else, other than the Bab matches all these descriptions.