How are these Great Beings explained?

[Unveiled Artist]

If you had none of the virtues and you don't believe in God then your humanity is what you would have in common.

That we are human beings?

 

[Vinayaka]

It's nothing more than an historic fact that I explained. Read into it what you will.

What are you referring to here? I don't understand.

 

[Vinayaka]

That we are human beings?

I agree we all have that in common. lol. Although sometimes I do wonder.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Not in the context I was mentioning it. I was pointing out that the reason we always quote so much is because today so much has been written.

What you quoted and what's written belittles other people's religions. It's not unity and peace oriented.

Division doesn't cause wars (the people's lack of mutual respect, hierarchy, and (edit: communism)

We don't need Bahaullah to reconcile our beliefs (Practitioners of these religions and their text disagree with you. Reconciling them as if they don't does not cause peace. You can't respect other religions and reconcile them at the same time unless you guys have mutual respect for each other's beliefs and if you are using your belief systems to make unity, make sure both religions teach unity at it's core. Buddhism has no god. So start from another foundation.

Not everyone believes in god-hence god is not a foundation for their faith

The sooner you understand and accept this, the better we are able to have world peace among diversity without division on what one believes is much more healthy than another.

For example, you constantly talk about other religions as if they bring wars and such. This, by default, puts your religion as superior.

You don't see it, but the contradiction is you don't say and act in ways that don't make you superior. The two statements don't correlate.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Indeed. We suffer from that a lot too. The anti-Hindu crowd promotes a lot of false ideas about us. It can get annoying, but mostly I realise it's fear based. You have to realise Islam is probably the most fearbased religion on this planet today.

I believe it's individual people not the actual Quran.

Who are the anti Hindu crowd? Thats terrible. Is it just innIndia mainly?

 

[Vinayaka]

I believe it's individual people not the actual Quran.

Who are the anti Hindu crowd? Thats terrible. Is it just innIndia mainly?

I've never read the Quran, just followed discussions on here, and some of the quotes I've read are downright atrocious, very himsa. The fact that the largest genocide in history happened in Northern India to Hindus by invading Muslims really makes me wonder. Most certainly it is open to a very violent interpretation, at the least. I prefer scriptures with no ambiguity on that.

The anti-Hindu crowd are secular Indians, atheists, and Christian Indo 'scholars' at western universities who have the habit of viewing and selecting only the worst possible interpretations. Probably started with Christian missionaries, but I'm not sure. It's quite alive today.

 

[loverofhumanity]

What you quoted and what's written belittles other people's religions. It's not unity and peace oriented.

Division doesn't cause wars (the people's lack of mutual respect, hiearchy, and communion does)

We don't need Bahaullah to reconcile our beliefs (Practitioners of these religions and their text disagree with you. Reconciling them as if they don't does not cause peace. You can't respect other religions and reconcile them at the same time unless you guys have mutual respect for each other's beliefs and if you are using your belief systems to make unity, make sure both religions teach unity at it's core. Buddhism has no god. So start from another foundation.

Not everyone believes in god-hence god is not a foundation for their faith

The sooner you understand and accept this, the better we are able to have world peace among diversity without division on what one believes is much more healthy than another.

For example, you constantly talk about other religions as if they bring wars and such. This, by default, puts your religion as superior.

You don't see it, but the contradiction is you don't say and act in ways that don't make you superior. The two statements don't correlate.

No, I believe religion is what humanity needs. Religion has done wonderful things for humanity and I firmly believe that no religion is superior to any other.

There will be no reconciliation without people's wish and agreement. If people don't want it then reconciliation won't happen. It's up to people to decide their own destiny. We respect that.

It doesnt matter what people believe. That is their own personal choice. We have our humanity which includes everyone atheist or religious or religions which don't have a belief in God. They are all people.

We are all a human family and hopefully we can all work together for the betterment of everyone.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Not in the context I was mentioning it. I was pointing out that the reason we always quote so much is because today so much has been written.

Division doesn't cause wars.

Think of this. We have an interfaith forum on RF. We come together and talk about our different religions, perspectives, and questions. Our different views creates division. We can have division (say you're wrong) without being hostile. We can share our faith and scripture without needing it as a tool for a debate. The division, instead, would be knowing one's boundaries.

The separation would not cause wars but comes from mutual respect of each other's religions. People can work together but that does not mean they should be united with a common foundation. Especially if that foundation is not mutually agreed upon all religions and religious not just a selective few.

I don't have to question christians too much because they feel only christians are saved. I'm not christian, so there isn't much I can do but offer my opinion, what I study, and experiences.

With Bahai, you are saying there is a common foundation for all religions that is god (of abraham). That places me and other religious in the discussion where mutual agreement (at least on a thread level to start) must be made in order to have unity. If you are just agreeing to disagree (another word for saying "I value your views and you are sincere" a vague way of saying I disagree) that, in Bahaullah's view, is separation right there.

That is okay.

There is no unity on a thread because of our differing beliefs that as a result causes division, and that is okay. We have not had wars on the thread. Then how do you expect people to find unity outside the internet?

Bahaullah is not the way to reconcile this. It starts with us. Many people think as you do Bahai and non-bahai alike. But to create respect for each other's faiths, Bahaullah can't be the one to reconcile this.

I actually don't see how any prophet who has passed away can reconcile any of this. However, if this is the way of delivery you'd have to a larger crowd that you have here, it won't work. Some countries value more of a forceful opinion to make religious and social change (greater peace). Others a more diplomatic approach.

No one shoe fits all. That's another way to start. You have religions that are not revealed. If you are making world peace, find different ways to approach religions all over the world. Learn about different cultural norms. Americans are more blunt. If you want "us" to listen, you have to be direct.

World peace does come with compromise. I wouldn't expect you to compromise your faith if your faith didn't include outside prophets. Since it does, there needs to be comprise to work towards this unity.

 

[Vinayaka]

It has been my observation that when a new group (like Baha'i', but there are lots of others) comes along to create, unity, they may attract a few people from other faiths, but certainly not convert the whole lot. So in actuality what it does is create even further division. This happened in Hinduism when someone came along trying to 'unify' the 3 main sects, and the end result over time was 4 sects, the 3 original, and now a 4th one that sort of combines the other 3.

So although the goal may have been perfectly reasonable, the end result is the opposite. It has been very rare that two faiths have joined together as one.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

1.

No, I believe religion is what humanity needs. Religion has done wonderful things for humanity and I firmly believe that no religion is superior to any other.

2. There will be no reconciliation without people's wish and agreement. If people don't want it then reconciliation won't happen. It's up to people to decide their own destiny. We respect that.

3. It doesnt matter what people believe. That is their own personal choice. We have our humanity which includes everyone atheist or religious or religions which don't have a belief in God. They are all people.

4. We are all a human family and hopefully we can all work together for the betterment of everyone.

You said Bahaullah wants to reconcille religions to build unity without the wars. In your own faith, you've taken out dogma, doctrines, and rituals to do this.

1. You have said religion causes wars; and, that they have gone astray during the years as their prophets tried to give them a new message of change. So, in this view, religion is not what people need. If that be the case, you would not see a need to reform.

2. If that be the case, why have a religion to build unity? Unless, like you said before, you are waiting for others to come to Bahaullah to achieve it.

3. It does matter what we believe. That is the point or you wouldn't follow any religion.

4. Yes. I hope. Just not on Christ, Bahaullah, and Muhammad (to name a few) terms. No prophets. No revelations. No god.

 

[Vinayaka]

In my mind, I just saw a live debate of 6 different universalist leaders all talking about world unity, on a stage, but each was quite adamant that his/her way was the right way to unity. It ended in a shouting match, and accellerated into fisticuffs.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I've never read the Quran, just followed discussions on here, and some of the quotes I've read are downright atrocious, very himsa. The fact that the largest genocide in history happened in Northern India to Hindus by invading Muslims really makes me wonder. Most certainly it is open to a very violent interpretation, at the least. I prefer scriptures with no ambiguity on that.

The anti-Hindu crowd are secular Indians, atheists, and Christian Indo 'scholars' at western universities who have the habit of viewing and selecting only the worst possible interpretations. Probably started with Christian missionaries, but I'm not sure. It's quite alive today.

Yes, that's true,unfortunately some evil minded people exploit religion for their own selfish purposes and destroy and kill in the name of God. Those who do these things have lost their humanity and become monsters.

 

[loverofhumanity]

1.

You said Bahaullah wants to reconcille religions to build unity without the wars. In your own faith, you've taken out dogma, doctrines, and rituals to do this.

1. You have said religion causes wars; and, that they have gone astray during the years as their prophets tried to give them a new message of change. So, in this view, religion is not what people need. If that be the case, you would not see a need to reform.

2. If that be the case, why have a religion to build unity? Unless, like you said before, you are waiting for others to come to Bahaullah to achieve it.

3. It does matter what we believe. That is the point or you wouldn't follow any religion.

4. Yes. I hope. Just not on Christ, Bahaullah, and Muhammad (to name a few) terms. No prophets. No revelations. No god.

It's not religion that causes wars. It's disobedience to the laws of religion which causes wars.

All religions teach to do good, not to kill and so on. But gradually the original religion becomes replaced or changed.

An example. Muhammad always fought defensive wars because in the Quran it says 'Do not attack unless attacked first'. Now did the Umayyad Caliphate observe that law of the Quran? No, they acted in the exact opposite way by killing and plundering for power and wealth against the very teachings of the Quran.

So it wasn't religion which has caused the war but people disobeying religion as an excuse to pillage and plunder. The same with the Christian wars. Thou shalt not kill is clear in their Holy Book so again it is not the religion that teaches wars but the people who disobey their religion.

Religion always teaches good. Religion always serves humanity. People though have misused religion for personal gain but that is not religions fault.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Division doesn't cause wars.

Think of this. We have an interfaith forum on RF. We come together and talk about our different religions, perspectives, and questions. Our different views creates division. We can have division (say you're wrong) without being hostile. We can share our faith and scripture without needing it as a tool for a debate. The division, instead, would be knowing one's boundaries.

The separation would not cause wars but comes from mutual respect of each other's religions. People can work together but that does not mean they should be united with a common foundation. Especially if that foundation is not mutually agreed upon all religions and religious not just a selective few.

I don't have to question christians too much because they feel only christians are saved. I'm not christian, so there isn't much I can do but offer my opinion, what I study, and experiences.

With Bahai, you are saying there is a common foundation for all religions that is god (of abraham). That places me and other religious in the discussion where mutual agreement (at least on a thread level to start) must be made in order to have unity. If you are just agreeing to disagree (another word for saying "I value your views and you are sincere" a vague way of saying I disagree) that, in Bahaullah's view, is separation right there.

That is okay.

There is no unity on a thread because of our differing beliefs that as a result causes division, and that is okay. We have not had wars on the thread. Then how do you expect people to find unity outside the internet?

Bahaullah is not the way to reconcile this. It starts with us. Many people think as you do Bahai and non-bahai alike. But to create respect for each other's faiths, Bahaullah can't be the one to reconcile this.

I actually don't see how any prophet who has passed away can reconcile any of this. However, if this is the way of delivery you'd have to a larger crowd that you have here, it won't work. Some countries value more of a forceful opinion to make religious and social change (greater peace). Others a more diplomatic approach.

No one shoe fits all. That's another way to start. You have religions that are not revealed. If you are making world peace, find different ways to approach religions all over the world. Learn about different cultural norms. Americans are more blunt. If you want "us" to listen, you have to be direct.

World peace does come with compromise. I wouldn't expect you to compromise your faith if your faith didn't include outside prophets. Since it does, there needs to be comprise to work towards this unity.

The fact interfaith have agreed to accept each other's diversity has already established common grounds, that's great. If that spirit can enter into every heart we can have peace.

There are a lot of hot spots in the world where people,can't accept their diversity and so they need to be educated and encouraged to live and let live. They don't need to be Baha'is to understand that but if we can help remove some prejudices and help people become more tolerant of each other's differences then it will help peace along a bit.

The Baha'i Faith is about promoting this acceptance of the diversity of everyone. If we can all accept each other's diversity without trying to make everyone the same as us then we can have peace. That is what the Baha'i message is all about, not that everyone must become a Baha'i.

For example, Muslims need to be educated to accept Hindus and their culture and not go around destroying their temples or statues as that is their diversity. It is not for Muslims to impose their own beliefs in others. The same goes for all of us just to accept each other 'unconditionally' without preconditions. Of conversion or anything like that.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

It's not religion that causes wars. It's disobedience to the laws of religion which causes wars.

All religions teach to do good, not to kill and so on. But gradually the original religion becomes replaced or changed.

An example. Muhammad always fought defensive wars because in the Quran it says 'Do not attack unless attacked first'. Now did the Umayyad Caliphate observe that law of the Quran? No, they acted in the exact opposite way by killing and plundering for power and wealth against the very teachings of the Quran.

So it wasn't religion which has caused the war but people disobeying religion as an excuse to pillage and plunder. The same with the Christian wars. Thou shalt not kill is clear in their Holy Book so again it is not the religion that teaches wars but the people who disobey their religion.

Religion always teaches good. Religion always serves humanity. People though have misused religion for personal gain but that is not religions fault.

I am honestly surprised I remember these things. If you referred to the people, you would still consider your religion having dogma, doctrine, and rituals. These are a part of communal religions. You said dogma, rituals, and doctrines are bad.

Why take out the dogma, doctrine, and rituals if its the people that causes wars (though you said religion earlier) and not religion?

I cant separate my points in one sentence per post. Take your time. I keep asking questions but youre not addressing them to say you read them and dont want to answer or something!

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The Baha'i Faith is about promoting this acceptance of the diversity of everyone. If we can all accept each other's diversity without trying to make everyone the same as us then we can have peace. That is what the Baha'i message is all about, not that everyone must become a Baha'i.

This is completely contradicting what you said way earlier.

1. You cant accept diversity if you dont accept individual spirituality rather than global wars. Thats defining peoples faith by other peoples actions.

2. If bahaullah is reconcilling religions, how will he reconcile religions that dont believe in god snd others who do not believe in the god of abraham? What type of reconcilliation method does not have to do with god?

3. You ssid before that people have Yet to come to bahaullah.

You do not need bahaullah for greater peace.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

If you read the Gosho and The Lotus Sutra you'll find detailed descriptions there. I think the history channel still does detailed programs about jesus christ and archeological records of his existence and more so written proof of what the apostles wrote about jesus. I haven't seen the history channel in years and don't have a t.v. Though, they have some interesting stories.

Recently, I found out The Vatican holds a lot of US history records and things that citizens don't know about. We still have a hook to our mainland before we broke off from it. That's in the history books in details too.

Oh dear, lol... i did not want to give you history. Sometimes, i feel perhaps my writing skills is not good enough to convey the message I am trying to give. I was trying to tell you, the detail of history of the Bab and Bahaullah was already prophesied thousands years before they appear, and when They did appear, it came to pass as it was prophesied....this is why i gave a brief history, to tell all those details I mentioned, was already prophesied, including the names and years.

But the person you were referring, was his name, and the year, and the place he would appear, prophesied thousands years before him?

This too doesn't address my questions.

What happened to the direct communication The Bab and Bahaullah had that you don't have in the short period of time they lived and you. Even Joseph Smith had a communication with god and I think he lived closer to us in time period than Bahaullah, if I'm not mistaken.

Another thing in addition to not addressing my questions is you're telling me information as if you're educating me. Information about the history and beliefs of Bahai has been repeated here. Now, I rather talk about it without needing to have a full history lesson.

Also, I have to read all your post. I separate it because I can't read it all at one time and remember my points. So, I address it in sections so I read the full post.

I think i replied to this question before, based on Bahai belief...
From Bahai point of view, basically the direct communication with God, is only for Manifestations of God. Meaning no one has ever, and will ever have direct access to God Himself, but the Manifestations. And as I mentioned many times before, the proof of Manifestations, is that, They appear with innate knowledge of all things. For example, Bahaullah new all things, including the details of other Holy Books, such as Bible or Quran, and history and religious traditions, Without studying them, or having the books to read...but for example Joseph Smith....did he know all things without studying? Did he know details of bible and history without studying? No, so, in Bahai View he is not a prophet.
However, it does not mean, we cannot pray directly to God, or God does not answer our prayers, though This is different than hearing the Voice of God directly.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I am honestly surprised I remember these things. If you referred to the people, you would still consider your religion having dogma, doctrine, and rituals. These are a part of communal religions. You said dogma, rituals, and doctrines are bad.

Why take out the dogma, doctrine, and rituals if its the people that causes wars (though you said religion earlier) and not religion?

I cant separate my points in one sentence per post. Take your time. I keep asking questions but youre not addressing them to say you read them and dont want to answer or something!

The original teachings in the Holy Book is what people are supposed to follow and obey.

It's people who ADD doctrines, dogmas and rituals and turn the original religion into something it was not meant to be as laid out in the Holy Scriptures.

So it IS people who created the false dogmas who created the wars. The dogmas and doctrines weren't originally in the Hoky Books - they were added by who? , - the people, not by God.

Because it is people who change their religion then they are responsible for any bad dogmas that cause wars.

Religion in its unadulterated form only teaches good butbonce it has become polluted by people's 'additions', it gradually needs to be renewed.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Oh dear, lol... i did not want to give you history. Sometimes, i feel perhaps my writing skills is not good enough to convey the message I am trying to give. I was trying to tell you, the detail of history of the Bab and Bahaullah was already prophesied thousands years before they appear, and when They did appear, it came to pass as it was prophesied....this is why i gave a brief history, to tell all those details I mentioned, was already prophesied, including the names and years.

But the person you were referring, was his name, and the year, and the place he would appear, prophesied thousands years before him?


I think i replied to this question before, based on Bahai belief...
From Bahai point of view, basically the direct communication with God, is only for Manifestations of God. Meaning no one has ever, and will ever have direct access to God Himself, but the Manifestations. And as I mentioned many times before, the proof of Manifestations, is that, They appear with innate knowledge of all things. For example, Bahaullah new all things, including the details of other Holy Books, such as Bible or Quran, and history and religious traditions, Without studying them, or having the books to read...but for example Joseph Smith....did he know all things without studying? Did he know details of bible and history without studying? No, so, in Bahai View he is not a prophet.
However, it does not mean, we cannot pray directly to God, or God does not answer our prayers, though This is different than hearing the Voice of God directly.

I will need to vet more information other than the links I gave you. This is pretty much the same thinv you did with me. Told me again bahai belief to prove bahai beliec true.

Im out the house but Nichiren Shonin is a buddbist monk. He read all of The buddhas teachingz and concludex that the Lotus Sutra sums up all The Buddhas teachings diamoku.

He predicted (well many prophets guess. A lot of its common sense) that there would be a lostand mix of The Buddhas teachings. They decieved in the age of Mappo and the way to get back with the teachings is to chant Diamoku.

His prediction was a result of the japanese war in his time where he says that falze buddhist sects: zen, theravada, etc are causing how you defined division.

This is all in his letters to different disciples called the gosho. I mean, do you actually see every buddhist agreeing with each other about what The Buddha taught?

The only gods mentioned in japanese buddbism mixed with shinto is the moon goddess, sun goddess, and ithers in the lotus.

It matches the dates and the line of progression.

The difference is Nichiren isnt a prophet and Buddbhism isnt a prophet fith. They dont depend on prophets as the core and validty of thejr faith.

If god can talk to the prophets directlybut not to you, I dont see hos your fsith is true. People make claims all the tims but the written claim does not make it true. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Sorry for the heaven spelli g errors. Im walking