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The Stories of Genesis: Myth or Literally True

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
What do you think about Moses being part of the "allegory"?

Other than the Hebrew Bible and references from the NT, Quran, and Baha'i writings what evidence is there that any of it happened?

Specifically in regards to stories regarding Moses:

The crossing of the Red Sea has a spiritual meaning. It was a spiritual journey, through and above the sea of corruption and iniquity of the Pharaoh and his people, or army. By the help of God through Moses, the Israelites were able to cross this sea safely and reach the Promised Land (spiritual state) while Pharaoh and his people were drowned in their own corruption. The Egyptian History recorded even trifling events. Had such a wonderful thing happened as the partings of the physical sea it would also have been recorded. – Daily Lessons Received at ‘Akka, p. 45.

The Trouble with Miracles
 

MJFlores

Well-Known Member
I can not see this has being relevant to what is being discussed.

The thing I want to drive at is the Bible could be relied upon for its historic truths and prophetic truths.


1 Peter 3:20 New International Version (NIV)

to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,
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2 Peter 2:4-6 New International Version (NIV)

For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment; if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;
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Matthew 24:37-39 New International Version (NIV)

As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

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All the nations of the earth will mourn (feel regret or sadness)
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Why? They just realized they are the ones LEFT BEHIND. They refused to listen, learn and believe when they had the chance.

 

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
These types of comments are not proper arguments and are extremely unchristian IMHO

IMHO they are not. The first one is true. The second one is saying opinions are of of no value and they aren't. The third one was a play on the words he used responding to me. Think humor.
 

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
In the Middle East, these are the era of these regions, particularly in Egypt, Mesopotamia and the Levant (Syria, Phoenicia, Canaan (Palestine)).

Neolithic period 10,000 to 3100 BCE
Bronze Age 3100 to 1050 BCE
Iron Age 1050 to 100 BCE​

The earliest Hebrew written language is the Paleo-Hebrew (c 10th century - 135 BCE). Hence, the Hebrew written language fall within the Iron Age.

The oldest Hebrew inscriptions Zayit Stone and the Gezer Calendar, both dated to the 10 century BCE, none of these mention any passages from the bible. Facts.

But Moses was SUPPOSEDLY lived in the 2nd half of 2nd millennium BCE (which would fall under the late Bronze Age), but there are no Hebrew writings existing in this time period. No Bronze Age writings were found in any tablet or papyrus, no Torah, no Ten Commandments. Facts.



The oldest mentions of Flood, come from the Sumerian cuneiform of fragments of clay tablets are the Eridu Genesis and the poem of Death of Gilgames (or Bilgames, later Gilgamesh). They dated to the 2nd half of 3rd millennium BCE (or between 2300 and 2000 BCE). The Akkadian translation to the Death of Gilgames, 18th or 17th century BCE. Facts.

Here, the Sumerian hero is named Ziusudra. Ziusudra appeared in The Instructions of Shuruppak, dated to about 2400 to 2300 BCE. Ziusudra is also mentioned one version of the Sumerian King List (WB-62). More facts.

The oldest Babylonian version of the Epic of Gilgamesh, are dated to the Old Babylonian period (19th to 16th century BCE, coinciding with the 1st Babylonian dynasty). The fragments now kept in the Pennsylvania and Yale museums, are dated to that period. Facts.

The Bronze Age Epic of Gilgamesh was even found found in Megiddo, Israel, dating to the mid-2nd millennium BCE, tell us the Epic was known to the ancient Canaanites, living north, but west of the galilee sea. Fact.

Among the Dead Sea Scrolls, is the non-canonical Book of the Giants, where Gilgamesh and Humbaba were two giants or Nephilim mentioned, showing that the Jews knew of about the characters of the Epic of Gilgamesh. Fact.

The Torah or Pentateuch composition between 8th to 5th century BCE, therefore it fall under the Iron Age.

The oldest literary evidence of the bible that are extant today, is the two fragments of Silver Scroll (found in cave at Ketef Hinnom, southwest of Old Jerusalem). They were able to date fragments because of some pottery found near the scroll. The scroll contained small passages of the book of Numbers.

The Silver Scroll predated the Greek translation of the LXX Septuagint (late 3rd to 1st centuries BCE) and the Dead Sea Scrolls (Qumran, West Bank, dated from 3rd or 2nd century BCE to 2nd century CE).

The oldest surviving of the Septuagint are the fragments of the Leviticus and Deuteronomy, known as Papyrus Rylands 458, dated to 2nd century BCE. The oldest Greek translation of Genesis and the Exodus, are found in the fragments of Papyrus Fouad 266, dated to 1st century BCE, so they are dated only some decades before Jesus was born.

Look them all up, omega. All the literary evidences are there. The Mesopotamian literature (Sumerian poems, the epic of Gilgamesh and epic of Atrahasis), they all predated the oldest surviving, but badly preserved Silver Scroll of Ketef Hinnom.

Seriously, omega. You keep saying to me that what I have stated in my previous reply, to be "unsupported opinion", but here, I am showing all the literature that exist, which predated anything written in the bible. The existence of the Mesopotamian texts and Hebrew texts, showed

The only one who is expressing "unsupported opinions" - is the one who don't know about the history of Mesopotamian and Jewish literature - is you, omega2xx.

I am not saying that the stories of Gilgamesh and Ziusudra/Atrahasis/Utnapishtim are historical, but I am saying that these literature and myths - the clay tablets, the scrolls, manuscripts, the papyri - are older than the Genesis and Exodus.

The fact that there are no surviving texts of bible, especially the Genesis, in the Bronze Age, only showing that any claim you make about the Torah being older than Sumerian-Babylonian texts, are not only wrong p, but also unsubstantiated lies.

If you choose to ignore the information that I have provided, then that make you a liar and uneducated fool.

Edit:

Sources:
George, Andrew, The Gilgamesh: A New Translation, 1999, Penguin Classics
Standard Version , Tablet XI (Flood), page 88-95 (Neo-Assyrian, from Library of Nineveh, 7th century BCE)
The Pennsylvanian Tablet (Old Babylonian), p 100-107
The Yale Tablet (Old Babylonian), p 108-115
The Megiddo Tablet (Middle Babylonian), p 138-139
The Death of Bilgames, p 198-199 (Sumerian, mention of Ziusudra and the Deluge)
(George also have translations of fragments from Hattusa, the Hittite capital, and from Amarna, Egypt. He also mentioned the Ugarit Tablet, is very much complete, but so far no publication of its translation)​
Dalley, Stephanie, Myths from Mesopotamia: Creation, The Flood, Gilgamesh and Others, (revised edition 2000), Oxford World's Classics
The Epic of Atrahasis, p 9-35
Gilgamesh, Standard Version, Tablet XI (Flood), p 109-116
The Epic of Creation, p 233-274 (better known as Enûma Eliš, a story about Tiamat, Ea (Enlil) and Marduk.)
Jacobsen, Thorkild, The Harps that Once...: Sumerian Poetry in Translation, 1997, Yale University Press
Part 4 (Myths)
The Eridu Genesis, p 145-150
The Birth of Man, p 151-166
Enlil and Ninlil, p 167-180​
The Electronic Text Corpus of Sumerian Literature (ETCSL)
1.1.2 Enki and Ninmah
1.7.4 The Flood Story (Eridu Genesis)
5.6.1 The instructions of Curuppag (The Instructions of Shuruppak)​

After the flood, Babylon was not even a civilization. It was a plain in the valley of Shinar and It was founded by Nimrod. He also founded Erech, Accad and Calneh.

The Tower of Babel was probably a ziggurate and one is still standing in Erech today. The chances are that Hebrew was the common language mentioned in Gen 11:1.

You also have no idea if all the records of that time have been found. There is a good chance after the many years, they have been destroyed by time and weather.

Many ASSUME ancient man was ignorant, and writing developed years later. That is not true. Jubal, la son of Cain, developed music and certainly one needs the ability to write to record music.

If Adam and Eve spoke Hebrew, it is the oldest language and all myths originate from the known history recorded in the Bible.

The people who survived the flood and their families knew about the flood and years later the people played telephone and the literal events were changed at the end of the line and became the Epic of Gilgamesh.

The real fool is one who thinks all of the records from that era have been found or have not been destroyed.

The bigger fool is the one who thinks saying something and attaching an unsupported date is evidence. How were all of these dates determined?

The biggest fool is the one who calls someone a liar because they disagree with the OPINIONS of someone.

The liar is the one who presents OPINIONS with no real supporting evidence, as the truth.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Wow, that almost sounds egocentric. But, that wouldn't be Baha'i-like, so that can't be right. So tell me, what do you really think?

Almost sounds egocentric?!?!?! Baha'i like?!?!?! Are trying to stereotype the diversity of the Baha'i Faith? Is everyone supposed respond in the same way? Please explain your use egocentric here. I in no way stated that my view is the only view of prophecy and the reason why someone believes in the Baha'i Faith.

The Baha'i Faith believes in a diversity of evolving understanding of scripture from the human perspective, and acknowledges symbolic and spiritual meanings of prophesy. One principle of the Baha'i Faith is the 'Independent investigation of Knowledge.'
 
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Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
After the flood, Babylon was not even a civilization. It was a plain in the valley of Shinar and It was founded by Nimrod. He also founded Erech, Accad and Calneh.
Given that we have archeological evidence of continuous occupancy of that region for the last 10,000 years, it can confidently be said you are wrong. There was no flood that covered that whole area (let alone the globe). There *were* local floods that destroyed a couple of cities (while leaving others untouched) and were probably the initial truth that lead to the Noah legend.

The Tower of Babel was probably a ziggurate and one is still standing in Erech today. The chances are that Hebrew was the common language mentioned in Gen 11:1.

There ha snever been a 'common language'. And the initial inhabitants of lower Mesopotamia were not semitic.

You also have no idea if all the records of that time have been found. There is a good chance after the many years, they have been destroyed by time and weather.
Agreed. Also, many were destroyed by later people.

Many ASSUME ancient man was ignorant, and writing developed years later. That is not true. Jubal, la son of Cain, developed music and certainly one needs the ability to write to record music.
To *record* music, possibly. But to *have* music, no. You do not have to be able to read music to play it.

If Adam and Eve spoke Hebrew, it is the oldest language and all myths originate from the known history recorded in the Bible.
Sorry, but the Bible was written well after much of the history of the region. It picked up on the local myths and incorporated them into its teachings.

The people who survived the flood and their families knew about the flood and years later the people played telephone and the literal events were changed at the end of the line and became the Epic of Gilgamesh.

The real fool is one who thinks all of the records from that era have been found or have not been destroyed.

No, the real fools are those that think there was a global flood that destroyed civilization.

The bigger fool is the one who thinks saying something and attaching an unsupported date is evidence. How were all of these dates determined?

The biggest fool is the one who calls someone a liar because they disagree with the OPINIONS of someone.

The liar is the one who presents OPINIONS with no real supporting evidence, as the truth.

And that is *you* in this context. Look at the established archeology. If you want a decent book, look at 'Archaeology of the land of the Bible-10,000-586BCE' by Amihai Mazar or 'The Archaeology of Ancient Israel' by Ammon Ben-Tor. They give the evidence.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Given that we have archeological evidence of continuous occupancy of that region for the last 10,000 years, it can confidently be said you are wrong. There was no flood that covered that whole area (let alone the globe). There *were* local floods that destroyed a couple of cities (while leaving others untouched) and were probably the initial truth that lead to the Noah legend.

The most likely origin of the flood myth is through Babylonian scripture and the floods of the Tigress and Euphrates rivers. These floods can be devastating and cover a large area particularly the delta region. This is compounded by the rise of sea level in recent years, which has inundated large areas of this once inhabited delta region.

Also the ideal Garden of Eden climate of the region before about ~2000 BCE has also diminished and much turned to arid and semi-arid regions. Over the past ~15,000 years and more this aridification has turned the grassland plains of the Sahara across the Middle East to desert and drove early humans to the major river valleys where our civilizations began.
 
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omega2xx

Well-Known Member
Given that we have archeological evidence of continuous occupancy of that region for the last 10,000 years, it can confidently be said you are wrong. There was no flood that covered that whole area (let alone the globe). There *were* local floods that destroyed a couple of cities (while leaving others untouched) and were probably the initial truth that lead to the Noah legend.

You can't say I am wrong without providing your evidence.

There ha snever been a 'common language'. And the initial inhabitants of lower Mesopotamia were not semitic.

Where's your evidenced? You don't really expect me to take your word for do you?


Agreed. Also, many were destroyed by later people.

So you can't be dogmatic about the info you have been giving me.

To *record* music, possibly. But to *have* music, no. You do not have to be able to read music to play it.

Get real,. Anyone intelligent enough to develop music, certainly has the intellect to write. Also his brother developed the forge. Anoter indication of the intellect of the earliest people.


Sorry, but the Bible was written well after much of the history of the region. It picked up on the local myths and incorporated them into its teachings.

Then prove it and you will need more than some historian giving unverifiable dates.

No, the real fools are those that think there was a global flood that destroyed civilization.



And that is *you* in this context. Look at the established archeology. If you want a decent book, look at 'Archaeology of the land of the Bible-10,000-586BCE' by Amihai Mazar or 'The Archaeology of Ancient Israel' by Ammon Ben-Tor. They give the evidence.[/QUOTE]

The real fool is the one who thinks someone will accept opinions as evidence. Sorry, but tht is you. If you want a better book, try the Bible.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
You can't say I am wrong without providing your evidence.
On the contrary, I have learned that you will ignore evidence. So I will point to any number of archeology books for that area and time.

Where's your evidenced? You don't really expect me to take your word for do you?
Nope. I expect you to take the word of experts in the field.

So you can't be dogmatic about the info you have been giving me.
You are the one requiring dogma and adherence to a specific set of beliefs.

Get real,. Anyone intelligent enough to develop music, certainly has the intellect to write. Also his brother developed the forge. Anoter indication of the intellect of the earliest people.
It isn't a question of intelligence. Humans have been intelligent enough to write for 100,000 years. They just hadn't invented writing until about 5000 years ago.

It is easy enough to invent and playmusic without knowing how to write.


Then prove it and you will need more than some historian giving unverifiable dates.
Since you reject all dating methods, you consider ALL dates to be unverified. Again, you like to ignore evidence that says otherwise.


The real fool is the one who thinks someone will accept opinions as evidence. Sorry, but tht is you. If you want a better book, try the Bible.

You do not have to accept opinions as evidence. You have to accept actual archaeological evidence as evidence. And that evidence shows you are wrong.

Now, if you want to claim there was a global flood at some point, please show the sedimentary layers that would be formed from a flood, distributed around the world, and dated by a reliable method to the same time. For good measure, show that such a flood happened when there were humans around.

Until you do that, you have nothing.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
You can't say I am wrong without providing your evidence.



Where's your evidenced? You don't really expect me to take your word for do you?




So you can't be dogmatic about the info you have been giving me.



Get real,. Anyone intelligent enough to develop music, certainly has the intellect to write. Also his brother developed the forge. Anoter indication of the intellect of the earliest people.




Then prove it and you will need more than some historian giving unverifiable dates.

No, the real fools are those that think there was a global flood that destroyed civilization.



And that is *you* in this context. Look at the established archeology. If you want a decent book, look at 'Archaeology of the land of the Bible-10,000-586BCE' by Amihai Mazar or 'The Archaeology of Ancient Israel' by Ammon Ben-Tor. They give the evidence.

As far as simple straight forward evidence of no flood is the world including the Middle East is covered by deep weathered regolith including the soils at the surface except for the rocky mountains. Simple references such as: The Soils of Israel. First comprehensive book on the soils of Israel since 1948 by Authors: Singer, Arieh

This soil survey and soil surveys all over the world describe soils over deep weathered regolith over vast regions, undisturbed by floods. The regolith form in place from the parent material under the soils with a gradual weathering transition to the surface soil. In these soils there are weathered concretions and deposits of oxidized iron and manganese. It takes 10's of thousands of years to form this deep regolith by gradual weather over time and leaching of weathered materials to form clayey subsoils. These processes can be seen to take place today and measure the time it takes for them to happen,
 
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CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Almost sounds egocentric?!?!?! Baha'i like?!?!?! Are trying to stereotype the diversity of the Baha'i Faith? Is everyone supposed respond in the same way? Please explain your use egocentric here. I in no way stated that my view is the only view of prophecy and the reason why someone believes in the Baha'i Faith.

The Baha'i Faith believes in a diversity of evolving understanding of scripture from the human perspective, and acknowledges symbolic and spiritual meanings of prophesy. One principle of the Baha'i Faith is the 'Independent investigation of Knowledge.'
You said, "Your mindless demeaning accusations of other interpretations are egocentric and self serving of your own exclusive claim."

Please explain that. That is what I was reacting to. I don't even know where you get that I have an "exclusive claim"? I am not going to be easy on you religious people that do have an exclusive claim... and you do. The Baha'i Faith is either the most important religion in the world or it's the biggest fraud. You might as well be saying, "It is the only way", and you do... but in a nice way... by saying things like all religions are true and from God... but they no longer are relevant.

So here's my question to you: Do any of the other religions, as practiced and believed today, have the truth?
 

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
On the contrary, I have learned that you will ignore evidence. So I will point to any number of archeology books for that area and time.

Don't waste your time. Over the years I have found mot links do not provide and real evidence. They do what your have been doing---just saying something and expecting the ones from Missouri to accept it as true.

Nope. I expect you to take the word of experts in the field.

And I expect these experts to provided some evidence for what they say. We can't tell if they are really experts without some evidence to evaluate.

You are the one requiring dogma and adherence to a specific set of beliefs.

The ONLY thing I am requiring is some evidence to support what they say. If you want to take their word for what they say, fine. I am not willing to do that.

It isn't a question of intelligence. Humans have been intelligent enough to write for 100,000 years. They just hadn't invented writing until about 5000 years ago.

That is absurd and can't be proven.

It is easy enough to invent and playmusic without knowing how to write.

It is possible but highly unlikely for intelligent people.

Since you reject all dating methods, you consider ALL dates to be unverified. Again, you like to ignore evidence that says otherwise.

I don't reject all dating methods. Carbon 14 i s fairly accurate up to about 10,000 years.

You do not have to accept opinions as evidence. You have to accept actual archaeological evidence as evidence. And that evidence shows you are wrong.

Finding something is not evidence. It MUST be accurately dated.

Now, if you want to claim there was a global flood at some point, please show the sedimentary layers that would be formed from a flood, distributed around the world, and dated by a reliable method to the same time. For good measure, show that such a flood happened when there were humans around.

Until you do that, you have nothing.

I have no way of proving it. Until you can disprove it, you have nothing.
 

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
As far as simple straight forward evidence of no flood is the world including the Middle East is covered by deep weathered regolith including the soils at the surface except for the rocky mountains. Simple references such as: The Soils of Israel. First comprehensive book on the soils of Israel since 1948 by Authors: Singer, Arieh

This soil survey and soil surveys all over the world describe soils over deep weathered regolith over vast regions, undisturbed by floods. The regolith form in place from the parent material under the soils with a gradual weathering transition to the surface soil. In these soils there are weathered concretions and deposits of oxidized iron and manganese. It takes 10's of thousands of years to form this deep regolith by gradual weather over time and leaching of weathered materials to form clayey subsoils. These processes can be seen to take place today and measure the time it takes for them to happen,

Nothing you have said proves there was no flood. Finding fish fossils on mountain tops is more evidence of a flood than what you have provide as evidence for it not happening.

The Genesis Flood by Henry Morris , gives a better explanation for one than the Solis or Israel, does for it not being true.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Don't waste your time. Over the years I have found mot links do not provide and real evidence. They do what your have been doing---just saying something and expecting the ones from Missouri to accept it as true.

And I expect these experts to provided some evidence for what they say. We can't tell if they are really experts without some evidence to evaluate.

The ONLY thing I am requiring is some evidence to support what they say. If you want to take their word for what they say, fine. I am not willing to do that.

But you are also not willing to look at the evidence provided, saying it is irrelevant.


That is absurd and can't be proven.

It is possible but highly unlikely for intelligent people.

Your opinion. The facts say otherwise.

I don't reject all dating methods. Carbon 14 i s fairly accurate up to about 10,000 years.

Why the break-off at 10,000 years? Because you believe the Earth to be only that old even though even C14 gives dates that are older?



Finding something is not evidence. It MUST be accurately dated.
And you reject all dates that disagree with your per-conceived views.

I have no way of proving it. Until you can disprove it, you have nothing.

The lack of flood sediments from around the world dated to the same time is evidence against it. But the burden of proof is on *your* viewpoint. A global flood would have left obvious deposits in most places. Those are not seen.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Nothing you have said proves there was no flood. Finding fish fossils on mountain tops is more evidence of a flood than what you have provide as evidence for it not happening.
Not on top of. In. The fossil fish are *in* the mountains. The mountains are from strata raised up *after* the fish died and became fossils.

The Genesis Flood by Henry Morris , gives a better explanation for one than the Solis or Israel, does for it not being true.

Hardly. Morris is an idiot. And generally known as such among those who study this stuff. Unless, of course, they are creationists. But creationists like to ignore evidence.
 

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
Not on top of. In. The fossil fish are *in* the mountains. The mountains are from strata raised up *after* the fish died and became fossils.



Hardly. Morris is an idiot. And generally known as such among those who study this stuff. Unless, of course, they are creationists. But creationists like to ignore evidence.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Why are you asking me? All I know is what the Bible says. Which, as we all know, is symbolic. So whatever the Bible says is wrong anyway, so who cares... except literal believing Christians.

I was asking you guys how you take some things literal and a lot of things figurative? That kind of makes it look like you're just making things up as you go. That whole things about 950 years being the dispensation of Noah? Is that what you said? And you really believe that? Why can't the whole thing be fictional? Doesn't that clear up everything? No flood, no Noah, just a spiritual story to teach the children of Israel about their God... that he don't like disobedient, evil people.

The problem like all ancient scripture, the Bible is no exception, they contain many accounts for which there is no historical nor archaeological evidence, and they contain mythical miraculous accounts such as a world flood and spreading the Red Sea that are virtually impossible. Noah and Moses may be based on real persons, but not factual accounts. Based on this there is no reason to accept these accounts as factual. The evidence is clear, the writings of the Pentateuch are edited compilations beginning as earlier Babylonian, Ugarit and Canaanite sources.

In ancient cultures and even more recent cultures folk tales, myths and legends are common that are accepted as 'lessons in life,' symbolic and the product of oral history. Read Joseph Campbell's anthropology books on this, and it is an excellent source.
 

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
Not on top of. In. The fossil fish are *in* the mountains. The mountains are from strata raised up *after* the fish died and became fossils.

There is no evidence of that. What could possibly cause a mountain to rise 30,000 ft"

Hardly. Morris is an idiot. And generally known as such among those who study this stuff. Unless, of course, they are creationists. But creationists like to ignore evidence.

His more intelligent than you are, so what does that make you?

He is only called an idiot by less qualified evolutionists.

Actually creationist love evidence, All the real evidence refutes evolution and you have absolutely no evidence to support the theology of evolution.

"After their kind" is proved thousands of times every day, it can't be falsified and it refutes evolution.
 
There is no evidence of that. What could possibly cause a mountain to rise 30,000 ft"



His more intelligent than you are, so what does that make you?

He is only called an idiot by less qualified evolutionists.

Actually creationist love evidence, All the real evidence refutes evolution and you have absolutely no evidence to support the theology of evolution.

"After their kind" is proved thousands of times every day, it can't be falsified and it refutes evolution.
You poor fellow..what have they done to you.
 
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