Even math is based on assumptions that can be questioned. That 2+2=4 is, itself, something that can be proven from more fundamental assumptions.
But, when talking about the real world, as opposed to the formal system of math, the question becomes when and if the math applies. For example, it is perfectly possible in the real world to put 2 rocks in a container, then put two other rocks in the container and find 10 rocks in the container afterwards. We say that some of the rocks were 'broken up', but that only means the math no longer applies.
In fact, the situations where addition applies are very interesting ones: they tend to be 'conservation laws'. So, when we say that mass is conserved, we mean that basic arithmetic with math applies and gives correct answers observationally. Similarly when we say that momentum is conserved.
But, for example, entropy is NOT a conserved quantity. You can start with two systems, each with 2 'units' of entropy, put the two systems together and have the result be a system with 5 'units' of entropy.
So, the place where science comes in is *testing* when the different mathematical possibilities actually apply and give the correct answers in the real world. Even if there is a mathematical model for a situation, there is still the question of whether that model actually works. And that cannot be determined without observation and testing.
I really don't want to get in it with you again, it was exhausting on that other post to have 6 people all at once challenging me! I am one person against many, and basically it had deteriorated into trading barbs! If you are trying to start that up again, I don't want any part of it
Around 5 years ago, I was debating an evolutionist who was criticizing everything I said, and thinking she was so much smarter, bringing up legs on whales! I told her that what was called legs, anchored reproductive organs! She said they had structure similar to legs on other animals! At the time, I could have hunted around for the explanation for every obstacle she threw in front of me, but it was exhausting and time consuming! I have a life outside of sites like this!
Well I just did find the answer! They are homologous structures, which doesn't prove evolution, but shows a creator who uses common structure and traits in other animals! We as humans can see that design in nature works! So we copy what God has designed and use it in designing cars for optimal efficiency, or other things! And the creator of the universe uses similar designs that work and repeats them in other animals!
But in the case of whale "legs" a scientist who rejects evolution said that these stubs or are very dissimilar as well!
Even a leading evolutionist admits that homology doesn't prove evolution but says it "strongly suggests" Well disbelievers in evolution don't agree with his opinion that it even strongly suggests it
What you and your friends were doing on the other post, was bringing up things that I couldn't immediately answer and in order to do so would have to exhaustively search for, but it didn't mean the answers didn't exist!
If I were one of the scientists who rejects evolution, I could immediately rattle off an answer!
The other thing that I notice when talking to evolutionists is that they bring things up which I have already considered in the past and found satisfying answers for! But I can't recreate the answer in my mind, lacking a photographic memory!
When I can't immediately answer a question, these online evolution warriors declare themselves the winners! And I recognize their arguments for what they are! I have put up with so many unfair things, like one on the other post belittled my claim that I was good at art when she never saw my artwork, and why would I lie about that when it wouldn't make a difference as pertaining to evolution
I used my art ability as an example that someone can be skilled in an area, without being schooled in the subject! I wasn't bragging! She compared it to me saying that I was cautious about people's online claims of being scientists! I did not belittle those claims, only said I didn't know for a certainty that claims made are true, and if they are or are not scientists, that is relevant to the weight of their argument about evolution! They may think that saying they are scientists adds weight to their arguments! If I say I am good at art, I would not be using that to make my case against evolution
That is what that post had deteriorated to! People trading barbs and belittling, and making things personal
Likely I will get bombarded with a bunch of evolutionists now, who will inform me that legish things on whales do prove evolution, and I do not want to spend all day having ten people jump all over me!
I had hoped that I could keep evolution out of this discussion and just talk about how science works
If any aggressive person starts in on me, I will block them if that function is allowed here! And of course they will declare that I am a coward too intimidated to deal with them, and declare themselves the winner and me the loser! I had an atheist friend on yahoo answers, of course an evolution believer, who called people like that "those other ones" He was on the same side of the issue of them, but thought they made mistakes in how they handled things, debating over words, belittling, etc He asked a question of me and others believers to assist him in explaining all of the intellectual mistakes that his peers make, because he was going to write a book and include all of the flaws that they make in reasoning with others
As I said he is frustrated by his peers who behave like that and to him they are "those other ones" Was it you who said to me that scientists who reject evolution got their degrees in "college mills"? That is an example of something that my reasonable atheist/evolutionist friend would object to! Colleges are colleges! If someone got a degree that will get him a job in the field, the college was accredited and also some very intelligent people have gone to those colleges! My sister in law went to UWGB which isn't the same as Harvard, although she did also attend a teaching university in Minneapolis and now she is a highly regarded veterinary professor, who goes all over the world on speaking engagements, and has helped improve the Iams pet food, getting a grant for the school she was employed by! Her name has appeared in books, and she is interviewed on the TV and radio
And when you claimed that scientists who reject evolution got their degrees at lesser colleges, you were making a sweeping generalization, similar to Dawkins claim that those who reject it are not "real scientists" I mentioned a scientist, Frantisek Vyskocil who is world renowned! And he is only one!
I am surprised no one pointed out my using the exclamation point and not a period! That is another tactic that evolutionists have employed! Point out typos, although in this case, I have a hardware problem on my computer that doesn't allow using the period symbol! I sometimes cut and paste periods and that works, but other times don't bother! But you could have used that to show how dumb I was and told me to "go play with the children and let the adults discuss this" That is what an evolutionist told me once! The fog of arrogance gets so thick you could cut it with a knife
I belong to a group that was about evolution and science, and I just visited it this morning! I don't think I ever went to it before, but I believed it was mostly creation believers, so asked a question about something and right away at least three evolution believers came to it and belittled me! I had asked the question of creation believers and right away they tell me: "It is a public forum, blah, blah, blah" And scoff at me! I deleted the question and asked again, and the same people show up like piranhas and start with the insults! I truly believe that a lot of the people that hang out online, do so to vent anger and act like jerks! They can't do it at work or they will get fired! So the anger comes out behind the wheel of a car, or online! Maybe a husband verbally abuses a wife, maybe a wife yells at a kid, people use safe havens for acting like jerk!
On Yahoo Answers, there was an atheist who was going around using the same overused, childish putdowns like "bronze age goat herders", "sheeple", and "flying S monster" I messaged him and he told me he was a psychiatrist! I was shocked, because when I hear things like that I conjure up a mental picture of an basement-dwelling (mom's house), angry geekish, 20 something guy who doesn't work!
When I told him that I think of shrinks as being mature and professional, he said that he acts that way at work, and in his free time lets down his hair! He really lowered my expectations of people who have jobs of authority! If I had to see a psychiatrist, I would have a kind of trust of them, but he ruined it for me! Nobody deserves to be looked up to anymore!
He also was getting really angry because I said that I didn't know for a fact he was a shrink (did not deny he was though) and he said: "Yes, I am and in fact I am looking at my diploma on the wall right now" As if him looking at it, would prove that he was one!
