Is the Scientific Method really Scientific?

[Guy Threepwood]

Think how fortunate we are that theories are regularly debunked & replaced.
Why?
It's a consequence of our observations showing the universe is more complex
than we thought. This is fascinating....which provides not just entertainment
to us all, but has the practical value of keeping scientists sharp & engaged.

more complex and less self explanatory by natural mechanisms,

these errors are a direct consequence of scientists constantly trying to debunk God, instead of simply following the evidence where it leads

 

[leibowde84]

By supernova measurements allowing a more accurate benchmark for distances and rates of expansion, Hawking himself acknowledges this- though he was one of the slowest to come around

Can you provide a source? Just interested to learn more about it. Wasn't able to find one on my own.

 

[Revoltingest]

more complex and less self explanatory by natural mechanisms,

these errors are a direct consequence of scientists constantly trying to debunk God, instead of simply following the evidence where it leads

In your view, how does any theory debunk any gods?
I know that some religious beliefs are debunked by science. A fundie friend
once told me of a book he read about how there are no stars (based upon
scripture). The points of light were supposedly just reflections.
Even he, an aerospace engineer (co-worker), saw that as loopy.

As for where the evidence leads, the scientific method (or methods) is (or are)
still the best approach for understanding the material/physical world.
The religiontific method has fared relatively poorly because the models aren't
typically amenable to testing, poor at predicting, & aren't quantitative.
And practitioners often fall prey to wearing funny hats.

 

[Revoltingest]

On second thought....I'm OK with funny hats.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

In your view, how does any theory debunk any gods?
I know that some religious beliefs are debunked by science. A fundie friend
once told me of a book he read about how there are no stars (based upon
scripture). The points of light were supposedly just reflections.
Even he, an aerospace engineer (co-worker), saw that as loopy.

As for where the evidence leads, the scientific method (or methods) is (or are)
still the best approach for understanding the material/physical world.
The religiontific method has fared relatively poorly because the models aren't
typically amenable to testing, poor at predicting, & aren't quantitative.
And practitioners often fall prey to wearing funny hats.

I think we may have stumbled upon a more subjective way to settle this whole debate

 

[Guy Threepwood]

On second thought....I'm OK with funny hats.

talking of silly attire

NATIONAL TARTAN DAY – April 6th | National Day Calendar

 

[Revoltingest]

talking of silly attire

NATIONAL TARTAN DAY – April 6th | National Day Calendar

I'll be sure to let @Wirey know....he's an expert on tartan history, & will endless debate the subject.

 

[Sapiens]

talking of silly attire

NATIONAL TARTAN DAY – April 6th | National Day Calendar

 

[Jenny Collins]

Although science is definitely necessary for understanding life, scientists have made some pretty major goofs! People forget how frail even the most educated of us can be and give them godlike status! And then it because a competition of which God is right? Scientist so and so, contradicts Scientist other guy! So which science god do you believe?

Here are some bloopers in science that got past the "great minds" and "masters of the universe" who do the public's thinking for them: Fake fossil: "For 116 years it graced the halls of National Museum of Wales" "When we stripped off five layers of paint we found it was an elaborate forgery" The ironic thing is, that in debating "online warriors of scientific agenda", I have been told that whenever there are forgeries, they can't get past the science community, because they scrutinize everything so well! Of course, this was 116 years old so it wasn't being scrutinized anymore, was just sitting in a museum!

But here is an example of a more current fraud, that got past others in the science community! One of Japan's top archaeologists who has been called the divine digger because of his seemingly amazing discoveries, has been recorded cheating" He buried stone artifiacts at an archaeological site before the digging team arrived! Now, all the results of his 30 years of work are under review! Book publishers expect to revise archaeological reference works and school text books on this account" Now some may protest: "See he was caught, so whenever something seems too good to be true, it is caught and edited out! And I would reply that this is an example of someone who got found out! What about the others who haven't? And why did it go on for so long? And what if he decided he should have stopped before people caught on? What if he only did it for 15 years? If he wasn't drunk with power maybe his sneakiness wouldn't have been uncovered? And his findings made it into text books! It could be argued: "Yeah, but we removed his stuff" Yeah, but not before young, vulnerable minds were spoon fed these wrong conclusions! Even if they know he was caught, their beliefs were shaped around what he said! They built up beliefs around his lies, how does one undo this?

I know some will reply here, on another post I was encircled by "sharks" because of my lack of ear tickling, but if you must respond try not to make personal attacks this time and say things like: "I don't suffer fools" If I am a fool, don't join a fool in his folly! And don't question my claims of being good at drawing, to make a case for evolution as one did on that post! Try to use intellectual honesty this time

 

[Polymath257]

Although science is definitely necessary for understanding life, scientists have made some pretty major goofs! People forget how frail even the most educated of us can be and give them godlike status! And then it because a competition of which God is right? Scientist so and so, contradicts Scientist other guy! So which science god do you believe?

Here are some bloopers in science that got past the "great minds" and "masters of the universe" who do the public's thinking for them: Fake fossil: "For 116 years it graced the halls of National Museum of Wales" "When we stripped off five layers of paint we found it was an elaborate forgery" The ironic thing is, that in debating "online warriors of scientific agenda", I have been told that whenever there are forgeries, they can't get past the science community, because they scrutinize everything so well! Of course, this was 116 years old so it wasn't being scrutinized anymore, was just sitting in a museum!

But here is an example of a more current fraud, that got past others in the science community! One of Japan's top archaeologists who has been called the divine digger because of his seemingly amazing discoveries, has been recorded cheating" He buried stone artifiacts at an archaeological site before the digging team arrived! Now, all the results of his 30 years of work are under review! Book publishers expect to revise archaeological reference works and school text books on this account" Now some may protest: "See he was caught, so whenever something seems too good to be true, it is caught and edited out! And I would reply that this is an example of someone who got found out! What about the others who haven't? And why did it go on for so long? And what if he decided he should have stopped before people caught on? What if he only did it for 15 years? If he wasn't drunk with power maybe his sneakiness wouldn't have been uncovered? And his findings made it into text books! It could be argued: "Yeah, but we removed his stuff" Yeah, but not before young, vulnerable minds were spoon fed these wrong conclusions! Even if they know he was caught, their beliefs were shaped around what he said! They built up beliefs around his lies, how does one undo this?

I know some will reply here, on another post I was encircled by "sharks" because of my lack of ear tickling, but if you must respond try not to make personal attacks this time and say things like: "I don't suffer fools" If I am a fool, don't join a fool in his folly! And don't question my claims of being good at drawing, to make a case for evolution as one did on that post! Try to use intellectual honesty this time

There are three main situations where fraud can happen in science:
1) In rather unimportant things where nobody cares enough to check the results.
2) In important situations where there is unfettered access to the basic data. In this case, others will check the results and reveal the fraud, usually quickly.
3) In important situations where access by others is restricted. This is a real danger and is one reason why we have to demand that experiments done by businesses and governments be published no matter what the outcomes.

And yes, occasionally the fraud takes time to be unmasked. But because science *does* check itself, the fraud does get unmasked eventually.

In religion, however, there is NOTHING to prevent fraud going on for generations. There is NOTHING to prevent young minds from being damaged by the myths and superstitions being taught to them.

So, yes, science is not perfect. But it is a whole lot better than any alternative ever found.

 

[Jenny Collins]

There are three main situations where fraud can happen in science:
1) In rather unimportant things where nobody cares enough to check the results.
2) In important situations where there is unfettered access to the basic data. In this case, others will check the results and reveal the fraud, usually quickly.
3) In important situations where access by others is restricted. This is a real danger and is one reason why we have to demand that experiments done by businesses and governments be published no matter what the outcomes.

And yes, occasionally the fraud takes time to be unmasked. But because science *does* check itself, the fraud does get unmasked eventually.

In religion, however, there is NOTHING to prevent fraud going on for generations. There is NOTHING to prevent young minds from being damaged by the myths and superstitions being taught to them.

So, yes, science is not perfect. But it is a whole lot better than any alternative ever found.

Thank you for your mature answer! No name calling, nothing like that! You weren't a huge offender on the other post, it was a couple others!

One out of seven doctors have used faked results! That is a vague statement I admit, I am trying to call up something I read a year or so ago! It might have been one out of seven in Australia, not necessarily everywhere! But if one out of seven can does that, don't they know that the checks and balances are so strict and the odds are they will get caught?

Maybe it is actually one out of 14 doctors who are fraudulent, and only one out of seven gets found out! Those doctors clearly think there is a good enough chance that they will get away with what they are doing!

How do we know that the fraud will "eventually" be unmasked! We only know of the ones that ARE unmasked! I will explain it this way! If people shop lift, they often will eventually get caught! But many don't also! So you can't point to the ones who get caught and say: "Eventually shop lifters get caught"

 

[Jenny Collins]

There are three main situations where fraud can happen in science:
1) In rather unimportant things where nobody cares enough to check the results.
2) In important situations where there is unfettered access to the basic data. In this case, others will check the results and reveal the fraud, usually quickly.
3) In important situations where access by others is restricted. This is a real danger and is one reason why we have to demand that experiments done by businesses and governments be published no matter what the outcomes.

And yes, occasionally the fraud takes time to be unmasked. But because science *does* check itself, the fraud does get unmasked eventually.

In religion, however, there is NOTHING to prevent fraud going on for generations. There is NOTHING to prevent young minds from being damaged by the myths and superstitions being taught to them.

So, yes, science is not perfect. But it is a whole lot better than any alternative ever found.

As far as your contention about religion, this post is about science! But I will still go there with you! Most religion is a mess, so you and I are in agreement! Most of religion is Babylon the Great as spoken of in Revelation! But don't throw out the baby with the bath water! I believe the Bible is true, but there are a lot of people misrepresenting it!

 

[Jenny Collins]

There are three main situations where fraud can happen in science:
1) In rather unimportant things where nobody cares enough to check the results.
2) In important situations where there is unfettered access to the basic data. In this case, others will check the results and reveal the fraud, usually quickly.
3) In important situations where access by others is restricted. This is a real danger and is one reason why we have to demand that experiments done by businesses and governments be published no matter what the outcomes.

And yes, occasionally the fraud takes time to be unmasked. But because science *does* check itself, the fraud does get unmasked eventually.

In religion, however, there is NOTHING to prevent fraud going on for generations. There is NOTHING to prevent young minds from being damaged by the myths and superstitions being taught to them.

So, yes, science is not perfect. But it is a whole lot better than any alternative ever found.

You got that right! Kids are being indoctrinated to believe a God who is just, merciful and loving, tortures people for eternity for messing up this life on earth!

You have people believing that God is his own son, and his own Father! You have people celebrating the birthday of Christ on the birthday of the sun god, and giving all the glory to Santa! You have people going into debt buying junk that others don't want and will return! The principles of Christ are moderation! Christmas is excess! Excessive eating, drunkenness, excessive greed and gift buying, two months hype leading up to one day, a day that wasn't even Christ's birthday! Do these same people give their wives anniversary presents on the anniversary they shared with their ex wife? He would never hear the end of it! All I can say is that you shouldn't dismiss all of religion, because of those "other ones"

 

[Polymath257]

Thank you for your mature answer! No name calling, nothing like that! You weren't a huge offender on the other post, it was a couple others!

One out of seven doctors have used faked results! That is a vague statement I admit, I am trying to call up something I read a year or so ago! It might have been one out of seven in Australia, not necessarily everywhere! But if one out of seven can does that, don't they know that the checks and balances are so strict and the odds are they will get caught?

Maybe it is actually one out of 14 doctors who are fraudulent, and only one out of seven gets found out! Those doctors clearly think there is a good enough chance that they will get away with what they are doing!

How do we know that the fraud will "eventually" be unmasked! We only know of the ones that ARE unmasked! I will explain it this way! If people shop lift, they often will eventually get caught! But many don't also! So you can't point to the ones who get caught and say: "Eventually shop lifters get caught"

The biggest problem for medical research is that the standards for 'statistical relevance' are quite low. This produces a LOT of false positives; as many as 1 in 20 studies with positive results may well be wrong.

Once again, the reason for the unmasking is that people check the important results. Without this, you are correct, it is possible for fraud to exist for long periods of time. But, with persistent checking, the wrong results, whether by fraud or by simple error, will be found out. And simple error is very common!

And this is a HUGE problem in some areas that wish to *call* themselves sciences without actually doing the hard work of science. For example, studies in psychology are notorious on this point. They are *frequently* not checked. This is also all too often the case in medical research, unfortunately.

So, yes, in those areas where checking is not done or not done at the level required to unmask errors (not to mention fraud), there can be problems.

But that is very far from being the case in, say, biology, physics, or geology.

I good way to check to see if a largish subject is actually doing science is to see if any unpopular theory has been adopted or a popular theory rejected in, say, the past 50 years. If not, there is probably not enough new ideas coming in to make a good science.

 

[Polymath257]

You got that right! Kids are being indoctrinated to believe a God who is just, merciful and loving, tortures people for eternity for messing up this life on earth!

You have people believing that God is his own son, and his own Father! You have people celebrating the birthday of Christ on the birthday of the sun god, and giving all the glory to Santa! You have people going into debt buying junk that others don't want and will return! The principles of Christ are moderation! Christmas is excess! Excessive eating, drunkenness, excessive greed and gift buying, two months hype leading up to one day, a day that wasn't even Christ's birthday! Do these same people give their wives anniversary presents on the anniversary they shared with their ex wife? He would never hear the end of it! All I can say is that you shouldn't dismiss all of religion, because of those "other ones"

Why not? All of them seem to be based on the same lack of solid evidence. I see no reason to say that one is obviously valid compared to all the others.

 

[Jenny Collins]

I

The biggest problem for medical research is that the standards for 'statistical relevance' are quite low. This produces a LOT of false positives; as many as 1 in 20 studies with positive results may well be wrong.

Once again, the reason for the unmasking is that people check the important results. Without this, you are correct, it is possible for fraud to exist for long periods of time. But, with persistent checking, the wrong results, whether by fraud or by simple error, will be found out. And simple error is very common!

And this is a HUGE problem in some areas that wish to *call* themselves sciences without actually doing the hard work of science. For example, studies in psychology are notorious on this point. They are *frequently* not checked. This is also all too often the case in medical research, unfortunately.

So, yes, in those areas where checking is not done or not done at the level required to unmask errors (not to mention fraud), there can be problems.

But that is very far from being the case in, say, biology, physics, or geology.

I good way to check to see if a largish subject is actually doing science is to see if any unpopular theory has been adopted or a popular theory rejected in, say, the past 50 years. If not, there is probably not enough new ideas coming in to make a good science.

I am not talking about "false positives", I am talking about doctors tampering with things! I am wording it vaguely because I am going from memory!

 

[Jenny Collins]

Why not? All of them seem to be based on the same lack of solid evidence. I see no reason to say that one is obviously valid compared to all the others.

You don't know ALL religions thoroughly, now do you?

 

[Polymath257]

I

I am not talking about "false positives", I am talking about doctors tampering with things! I am wording it vaguely because I am going from memory!

Understood. The point is that errors of both types can be found if there is checking done by independent sources. Determining whether there was actual fraud or simple human error is a different thing than determining if there is an error.

 

[Polymath257]

You don't know ALL religions thoroughly, now do you?

I know enough to know there isn't any evidence of a supernatural. That is enough for me at this time. I have other/better things to think about.

 

[Jenny Collins]

I

I know enough to know there isn't any evidence of a supernatural. That is enough for me at this time. I have other/better things to think about.

I was just discussing the subject of the supernatural with another atheist on facebook, and was sharing with him all of the people I know and trust, who have had experiences with the supernatural! The people who I know are dependable, and not mentally ill, natural phenomena cannot explain it, and what they have experienced is corroborated by others!

Three friends have told me of things and my ex husband as well! People that played with ouija boards, which although being cardboard and ink, and bought in stores can summon demonic influence, because people are reaching out to their world!

The ironic thing is that I know of at least two atheists, who while rejecting the existence of God, do believe in the supernatural!

By the way, I don't believe in ghosts of dead people, I believe in demons

I know that there are natural explanations for things often confused with actual experiences, like sleep paralysis, but other things cannot be explained away