The possibility that Jesus was just a smart man.

[jeager106]

I GET IT, I GET IT, I GET IT!

Now it all makes sense to me.
This character called Jesus was a mere clever magician hoping
he'd get nailed to a stick and die a horrific death just for giggles and grins.
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. I feel so much better now.
Man o' man youz guzs make sooooooooooooooooo much sense.
Over time literally BILLIONS of idjits have been so deceived.
I'm so glad I can see clearly now, the rain is gone.............................................
I can see all obstacles in my way. Gone are the dark clouds that had me blind..

Say!? Ever here of David Koresh?
Lets nominate him as a savior of man and elevate him to the status of
a god of modern times.
Oh!
We did that.
Jim Jones took that honor.
Drink the purple Kool-aid.

 

[whirlingmerc]

A smart man can't just calm the wind and waves, multiply a handful of loaves and fishes to feed thousands or raise the dead

That takes more than smarts

 

[columbus]

A smart man can't just calm the wind and waves, multiply a handful of loaves and fishes to feed thousands or raise the dead

That takes more than smarts

Or a really creative set of biographers competing for the best Gospel. After nobody who was actually there is still around.
Tom

 

[arthra]

If He continued his education he may well have been as smart as Aristotle.

Baha'is believe Jesus was a Manifestation of God... and hence He was like a Mediator between God and humanity and a Messenger and Conveyor of Divine Revelation. We believe His knowledge was innate rather than learned in a school. As to some of the reported miracles I would suggest consulting the work of the Aramaic scholar George Lamsa on the life of Jesus such as More Light on the Gospel: Over 400 New Testament Passages Explained. Garden City, N.Y: Doubleday, 1968.

 

[Valjean]

You seem to be suggesting Jesus employed common magician tricks to deceive the people into thinking that he was more than he was. To me, this would be a critical character flaw. From all the evidence and argumentation I have heard, I believe Jesus possessed abilities we would call paranormal/supernatural.

What evidence do you have of this? As Psychoslice pointed out, miracles are common in mythology. There's nothing unique or particularly compelling about Jesus' wonder-working.

Mythologies may begin with a real person or event, but these get enhanced with retelling till the tale bears little resemblance to the original.

"Had there been a lunatic asylum in the suburbs of Jerusalem, Jesus Christ would infallibly been shut up in it at the outset of his public career. The interview with Satan on a pinnacle of the temple would alone have damned him, and everything that happened after could but have confirmed the diagnosis. The whole religious complexion of the modern world is due to the absence from Jerusalem of a lunatic asylum." --- Havelock Ellis. (italics mine)

 

[bobhikes]

A smart man can't just calm the wind and waves, multiply a handful of loaves and fishes to feed thousands or raise the dead

That takes more than smarts

In the story the winds and waves suddenly got rough. A smart man may have been able to tell it was a fast moving squall and that it was about to pass. They did not have meteorology at the time weather was mostly acknowledged as an act of God. Even today weather events can not be determined with accuracy.

 

[bobhikes]

I GET IT, I GET IT, I GET IT!

Now it all makes sense to me.
This character called Jesus was a mere clever magician hoping
he'd get nailed to a stick and die a horrific death just for giggles and grins.
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. I feel so much better now.
Man o' man youz guzs make sooooooooooooooooo much sense.
Over time literally BILLIONS of idjits have been so deceived.
I'm so glad I can see clearly now, the rain is gone.............................................
I can see all obstacles in my way. Gone are the dark clouds that had me blind..

Say!? Ever here of David Koresh?
Lets nominate him as a savior of man and elevate him to the status of
a god of modern times.
Oh!
We did that.
Jim Jones took that honor.
Drink the purple Kool-aid.

Not at all an educated man with a plan. Using the tools he had to pass his message along. Not unlike Socrates or Aristotle just in a different field.

 

[bobhikes]

How Jesus is depicted and Jesus existing at all are two different things.

Did some searching and there is evidence that Mohamed was a real person and Mohamed said that Jesus was real just not the Messiah. Mohamed was only 500 years after the death of Jesus, it is reasonable to believe he had facts. It would have been silly to include a mythical figure from a religion that was fighting against you.

 

[George-ananda]

What evidence do you have of this? As Psychoslice pointed out, miracles are common in mythology. There's nothing unique or particularly compelling about Jesus' wonder-working.

The evidence and argumentation (not PROOF) that leads me to what I believe is most likely is that I believe the existence of miracles and paranormal abilities occur even in modern times with spiritual figures (making Jesus possessing such abilities less of a challenge for me to believe). The popularity of Jesus seems hard to understand as rising so meteorically without something people know as 'beyond the normal powers and abilities' attracting attention. The willingness of many early followers to be put to death argues they saw something convincing to believe in. I believe the universe is on our side, and will enable special teachers/guides to give humanity a positive direction.

Mythologies may begin with a real person or event, but these get enhanced with retelling till the tale bears little resemblance to the original.

That can happen and may have happened to some extent in Jesus' case too. It is hard to see people accepting death over recanting a pure myth though.

 

[BilliardsBall]

There isn't any evidence that Jesus ever existed at all. There isn't a single contemporary eyewitness account of Jesus, nor a shred of physical evidence that he left. All you have is a character in a book of mythology. Some of the ideas in that book are passable, I suppose, but a lot are utterly horrific.

You may want to review the entry on the historicity of Jesus in Wikipedia. About 100 scholars (liberal and conservative, atheist and Christian) have come to some consensus there.

 

[BilliardsBall]

From another thread the op was complaining that all Jesus's miracles where myths. After thinking on it all Jesus's miracles where very possible for a smart man of the time.

The first time we see Jesus as special in the Bible he is debating gospel as a boy with the rabbis and they are impressed with him. This show's us that Jesus was either god or very educated boy as the rabbis at that time were some of the most educated men.

If He continued his education he may well have been as smart as Aristotle.

The next time we see Jesus he is turning water into wine. He has all the stewards collect the wine carafes and fill them with water. Those carafes had probably been used for years to store wine. The water would have easily gotten color and slight flavor from the carafe. He instructs them to take it to the Head steward only. It probably was the Head stewards job to make sure there was enough wine. If I was the Head steward I would sell the water as wine to the drunks.

Healing the sick. First we know it is possible to heal yourself. We also know the placebo effect is a real thing. The more susceptible you are to belief the better the placebo effect. Belief was high is Jesus's time. He would cure people after first asking if they believed and telling them their belief saved them. Perhaps he realized or learned this in his studies.

Bringing back the dead. They always state that he layed hands on them but never explained what the hands did. Perhaps he taught himself CPR.

Bringing to life a corpse. Even today people are missed diagnosed as dead only to a wake and surprise everyone. In Jesus's time it was far more common. We know people were buried alive at that time. He may have been able to see certain things which others didn't that indicated the person was still alive and he was able to revive them. In the cases I heard he went in alone with the deceased so no one would know what he actually did.

Walking on water and the loaves and fishes could be misinterpretation of things he did. We know magicians today can walk on water and make things appear that weren't there. We don't interpret it as supernatural today but in Jesus's time we would.

Our Savior was beaten badly, scourged and died a horrible death--after first suffering the Father's wrath, too. He was packed under pounds of spices and wrappings and placed in an icy tomb for days, before removing a stone weighing tons and appearing over one dozen times to skeptical witnesses who thought their end was also near.

 

[YmirGF]

Hehe. If Jesus was just a smarty pants I rather expect that he would have been clever enough to avoid getting hung up on a cross.

 

[whirlingmerc]

A merely smart man would not come up with many eyewitnesses who would die rather than admit the story was spoofed. And a smart man would not have made women the lead eyewitnesses at the time.

In Watergate a bunch of 'smart men' came up with a phone story and it fell apart mighty mighty fact

Charles W. Colson > Quotes > Quotable Quote

“I know the resurrection is a fact, and Watergate proved it to me. How? Because 12 men testified they had seen Jesus raised from the dead, then they proclaimed that truth for 40 years, never once denying it. Every one was beaten, tortured, stoned and put in prison. They would not have endured that if it weren't true. Watergate embroiled 12 of the most powerful men in the world-and they couldn't keep a lie for three weeks. You're telling me 12 apostles could keep a lie for 40 years? Absolutely impossible.”

― Charles W. Colson

 

[Cephus]

You may want to review the entry on the historicity of Jesus in Wikipedia. About 100 scholars (liberal and conservative, atheist and Christian) have come to some consensus there.

Oh, lots of them say they believe it, but nobody ever actually says why. Nobody actually presents the evidence. Funny, that?

 

[Twilight Hue]

Or a really creative set of biographers competing for the best Gospel. After nobody who was actually there is still around.
Tom

That's right.

There is only a narrative to draw conclusions from.

No one knows the authors.

First one ever written was derived from some caves by people no one knows about, along with other written material akin to what a person or persons store in their attic or garage.

And now there's a whole religion propped up from that.

 

[Cephus]

Did some searching and there is evidence that Mohamed was a real person and Mohamed said that Jesus was real just not the Messiah. Mohamed was only 500 years after the death of Jesus, it is reasonable to believe he had facts. It would have been silly to include a mythical figure from a religion that was fighting against you.

Who cares what Mohammad said? Mohammad never saw Jesus with his own eyes, so like every other report, it is based on multiple layers of hearsay.

 

[Cephus]

I know lots of people who will claim to be talking to Jesus every day, but they aren't really in touch with theology I think. That is all the theology that interests them, so that is all that they tell other people. They have what they want: a friend and a package of promises. If you bring up theology with them they think you are speaking in a foreign language. They do not wish to know church history or world history or philosophy. They don't want to know, so they do not represent Christian theology despite saying the word a lot. They have a kind of theology that is related and is sufficient for them. Then you have the ministers who go into it for a job, and they often have very little interest beyond learning how to deliver sermons to said people uninterested in theology. They are rewarded according to what interests them. We all have interests that lead us down certain paths and limit what we can find out. We're all horses with blinders, and all we care about is whatever carrot is ahead. Nobody is an exception as far as I can tell.

You've got lots of people who are delusional. Sorry, not impressed with delusion.

 

[oldbadger]

From another thread the op was complaining that all Jesus's miracles where myths. After thinking on it all Jesus's miracles where very possible for a smart man of the time.

The first time we see Jesus as special in the Bible he is debating gospel as a boy with the rabbis and they are impressed with him. This show's us that Jesus was either god or very educated boy as the rabbis at that time were some of the most educated men.

If He continued his education he may well have been as smart as Aristotle.

The next time we see Jesus he is turning water into wine. He has all the stewards collect the wine carafes and fill them with water. Those carafes had probably been used for years to store wine. The water would have easily gotten color and slight flavor from the carafe. He instructs them to take it to the Head steward only. It probably was the Head stewards job to make sure there was enough wine. If I was the Head steward I would sell the water as wine to the drunks.

Healing the sick. First we know it is possible to heal yourself. We also know the placebo effect is a real thing. The more susceptible you are to belief the better the placebo effect. Belief was high is Jesus's time. He would cure people after first asking if they believed and telling them their belief saved them. Perhaps he realized or learned this in his studies.

Bringing back the dead. They always state that he layed hands on them but never explained what the hands did. Perhaps he taught himself CPR.

Bringing to life a corpse. Even today people are missed diagnosed as dead only to a wake and surprise everyone. In Jesus's time it was far more common. We know people were buried alive at that time. He may have been able to see certain things which others didn't that indicated the person was still alive and he was able to revive them. In the cases I heard he went in alone with the deceased so no one would know what he actually did.

Walking on water and the loaves and fishes could be misinterpretation of things he did. We know magicians today can walk on water and make things appear that weren't there. We don't interpret it as supernatural today but in Jesus's time we would.

Yep....!
Imo, nearly all of the reports in G-Mark ate based upon truth.
Jesus walked on water is similar to a sports journalist reporting that a rugby winger 'flew' down the wing, 'bulldozing' through the opposition...
Good thread, Imo....

 

[oldbadger]

You've got lots of people who are delusional. Sorry, not impressed with delusion.

I don't know, but you seem to be what I call a myther.
I am not a Christian but I feel quite confident that Jesus did exist and did initiate a mission.
There's plenty of evidence for this, really.

 

[oldbadger]

How could he not know he had no paranormal/supernatural abilities. The loaves and fish must have had a 'normal' source in your theory. 'Walking on water' must have been a trick he was aware he was doing....etc.

Hi....!
I reckon that the 5000 tale was based upon truth.
Jesus gathered up what was available. He got the crowds attention, held up a morsel and took it to a person, then another. Other people had morsels with them as well and wanted to copy him. This snowballed.