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The possibility that Jesus was just a smart man.

bobhikes

Nondetermined
Premium Member
From another thread the op was complaining that all Jesus's miracles where myths. After thinking on it all Jesus's miracles where very possible for a smart man of the time.

The first time we see Jesus as special in the Bible he is debating gospel as a boy with the rabbis and they are impressed with him. This show's us that Jesus was either god or very educated boy as the rabbis at that time were some of the most educated men.

If He continued his education he may well have been as smart as Aristotle.

The next time we see Jesus he is turning water into wine. He has all the stewards collect the wine carafes and fill them with water. Those carafes had probably been used for years to store wine. The water would have easily gotten color and slight flavor from the carafe. He instructs them to take it to the Head steward only. It probably was the Head stewards job to make sure there was enough wine. If I was the Head steward I would sell the water as wine to the drunks.

Healing the sick. First we know it is possible to heal yourself. We also know the placebo effect is a real thing. The more susceptible you are to belief the better the placebo effect. Belief was high is Jesus's time. He would cure people after first asking if they believed and telling them their belief saved them. Perhaps he realized or learned this in his studies.

Bringing back the dead. They always state that he layed hands on them but never explained what the hands did. Perhaps he taught himself CPR.

Bringing to life a corpse. Even today people are missed diagnosed as dead only to a wake and surprise everyone. In Jesus's time it was far more common. We know people were buried alive at that time. He may have been able to see certain things which others didn't that indicated the person was still alive and he was able to revive them. In the cases I heard he went in alone with the deceased so no one would know what he actually did.

Walking on water and the loaves and fishes could be misinterpretation of things he did. We know magicians today can walk on water and make things appear that weren't there. We don't interpret it as supernatural today but in Jesus's time we would.
 

Cephus

Relentlessly Rational
There isn't any evidence that Jesus ever existed at all. There isn't a single contemporary eyewitness account of Jesus, nor a shred of physical evidence that he left. All you have is a character in a book of mythology. Some of the ideas in that book are passable, I suppose, but a lot are utterly horrific.
 

bobhikes

Nondetermined
Premium Member
There isn't any evidence that Jesus ever existed at all. There isn't a single contemporary eyewitness account of Jesus, nor a shred of physical evidence that he left. All you have is a character in a book of mythology. Some of the ideas in that book are passable, I suppose, but a lot are utterly horrific.

There are millions of people that have existed in the past and we have no shred of physical evidence they ever existed and for that matter no written evidence. Those people still existed.
 

Cephus

Relentlessly Rational
There are millions of people that have existed in the past and we have no shred of physical evidence they ever existed and for that matter no written evidence. Those people still existed.

They may have, but we have no reason to think that, individually, they did. We have no horse in that race. Christians, however, absolutely have to believe that Jesus existed and was as he is depicted in the Bible, otherwise their entire theology falls apart.
 

bobhikes

Nondetermined
Premium Member
They may have, but we have no reason to think that, individually, they did. We have no horse in that race. Christians, however, absolutely have to believe that Jesus existed and was as he is depicted in the Bible, otherwise their entire theology falls apart.
Facts and Stats(World Christian Encyclopedia)
There are 33,000 christian religions subdivided into "6 major ecclesiastico-cultural mega-blocs", and ordering them by denomination size we have (I am rounding up or down slightly for convenience, using year 2000 figures) :

You do understand that each religion interprets the gospel differently and How Jesus is depicted. I don't know them all but I bet you could define Jesus any way you want and one of these religions would be a match.
 

bobhikes

Nondetermined
Premium Member
Its not beyond the realms of engineering and cleverness. You can fake miracles.

I wouldn't say he faked them, I would like to think he tried to help the best way he knew and let the huddle masses interpret in a way that helped him. He was poor, relying on those masses for shelter and food.
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
I wouldn't say he faked them, I would like to think he tried to help the best way he knew and let the huddle masses interpret in a way that helped him. He was poor, relying on those masses for shelter and food.
It doesn't seem to be here or there and doesn't affect theology. It might affect a lot of people but not everybody. History is flexible.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
From another thread the op was complaining that all Jesus's miracles where myths. After thinking on it all Jesus's miracles where very possible for a smart man of the time.
You seem to be suggesting Jesus employed common magician tricks to deceive the people into thinking that he was more than he was. To me, this would be a critical character flaw. From all the evidence and argumentation I have heard, I believe Jesus possessed abilities we would call paranormal/supernatural.
 

Cephus

Relentlessly Rational
That is incorrect. Only particular Christians are dependent, but there are a lot.

While I guess there could theoretically be Christians who don't actually follow Christ, I mean there was an Episcopalian bishop that didn't believe in God, but those people are few and far between. It's pretty hard to follow someone you don't believe existed.
 

Cephus

Relentlessly Rational
Facts and Stats(World Christian Encyclopedia)
There are 33,000 christian religions subdivided into "6 major ecclesiastico-cultural mega-blocs", and ordering them by denomination size we have (I am rounding up or down slightly for convenience, using year 2000 figures) :

You do understand that each religion interprets the gospel differently and How Jesus is depicted. I don't know them all but I bet you could define Jesus any way you want and one of these religions would be a match.

How Jesus is depicted and Jesus existing at all are two different things.
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
While I guess there could theoretically be Christians who don't actually follow Christ, I mean there was an Episcopalian bishop that didn't believe in God, but those people are few and far between. It's pretty hard to follow someone you don't believe existed.
You've no idea what you are talking about when you take your limited experience into account. I'm informing you, politely, that you do not know what you are talking about. Yes, if Jesus were just a smart man there would still be billions of Christians. Your personal experience is not the universal Christian experience.
 

Cephus

Relentlessly Rational
You've no idea what you are talking about when you take your limited experience into account. I'm informing you, politely, that you do not know what you are talking about. Yes, if Jesus were just a smart man there would still be billions of Christians. Your personal experience is not the universal Christian experience.

But I'm not saying if Jesus was a smart man, I'm saying that Jesus may not have existed at all, in any sense whatsoever. But then again, I separate following Jesus religiously from following the words attributed to Jesus in the Bible ideologically.
 

bobhikes

Nondetermined
Premium Member
You seem to be suggesting Jesus employed common magician tricks to deceive the people into thinking that he was more than he was. To me, this would be a critical character flaw. From all the evidence and argumentation I have heard, I believe Jesus possessed abilities we would call paranormal/supernatural.

I believe the people in his time would have called them paranormal/supernatural and He may truly believed he was supernatural but I can explain them with today's logic. That doesn't mean it happened that way just that it could have. I am not saying he deceived people at all His goal seemed to be to help.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
I believe the people in his time would have called them paranormal/supernatural and He may truly believed he was supernatural but I can explain them with today's logic. That doesn't mean it happened that way just that it could have. I am not saying he deceived people at all His goal seemed to be to help.
How could he not know he had no paranormal/supernatural abilities. The loaves and fish must have had a 'normal' source in your theory. 'Walking on water' must have been a trick he was aware he was doing....etc.
 

bobhikes

Nondetermined
Premium Member
How could he not know he had no paranormal/supernatural abilities. The loaves and fish must have had a 'normal' source in your theory. 'Walking on water' must have been a trick he was aware he was doing....etc.

Bringing people back to life. He may have developed a form of CPR and noticed things in corpse's that allowed him to wake them up. He wouldn't have understood what he was doing and may off thought of it as supernatural.

Same goes for self healing with the placebo effect. We are still struggling to understand how it works. He could of easily believe it was God given.

Walking on water and the loaves and fish are tales told by others not by Jesus. It is possible that he was a showman and he used tricks to get into places he was needed. He did not tell the tales he allowed the tales to be told. The stories also could of gotten big before he heard them and there was no advantage or easy way to correct them. He may have tried and just given up.
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
But I'm not saying if Jesus was a smart man, I'm saying that Jesus may not have existed at all, in any sense whatsoever. But then again, I separate following Jesus religiously from following the words attributed to Jesus in the Bible ideologically.
I know lots of people who will claim to be talking to Jesus every day, but they aren't really in touch with theology I think. That is all the theology that interests them, so that is all that they tell other people. They have what they want: a friend and a package of promises. If you bring up theology with them they think you are speaking in a foreign language. They do not wish to know church history or world history or philosophy. They don't want to know, so they do not represent Christian theology despite saying the word a lot. They have a kind of theology that is related and is sufficient for them. Then you have the ministers who go into it for a job, and they often have very little interest beyond learning how to deliver sermons to said people uninterested in theology. They are rewarded according to what interests them. We all have interests that lead us down certain paths and limit what we can find out. We're all horses with blinders, and all we care about is whatever carrot is ahead. Nobody is an exception as far as I can tell.
 
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