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What is wrong with those people who get tattoos?

C

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
Sonofason said:
You seem to be offended by what I said. I guess you think you are perfect...no flaws, right?
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Great straw man.
Except that it is kinda thin and transparent. I know a lot of people. Some get tattoos for the kind of reason you describe. Some for very different ones.
As much as I don't like any tattoos I see a huge difference between having your baby's name tattooed over your heart and having a band logo tattooed on your wrist.
Believe it or not, people often do things for reasons other than the one you would do it for. If you were stupid enough to do it.
I don't like body mods, I prefer bodies just the way they come. But I don't feel big enough to know why everyone who gets one does it.
Tom
 
Sonofason

Sonofason

Well-Known Member
sovietchild said:
According to wiki. Permanent tattoos are forbidden in Sunni Islam, but are permissible in Shia Islam.

It's your decision. Muslim is a believer. If you believe in one God then you are a believer.
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Tattoos are also forbidden in Judaism, and Christianity as well...

"Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD." (Leviticus 19:28)

When you say "Muslim is a believer", are you saying that that the definition of the word Muslim is "believer"?
 
Sonofason

Sonofason

Well-Known Member
columbus said:
Great straw man.
Except that it is kinda thin and transparent. I know a lot of people. Some get tattoos for the kind of reason you describe. Some for very different ones.
As much as I don't like any tattoos I see a huge difference between having your baby's name tattooed over your heart and having a band logo tattooed on your wrist.
Believe it or not, people often do things for reasons other than the one you would do it for. If you were stupid enough to do it.
I don't like body mods, I prefer bodies just the way they come. But I don't feel big enough to know why everyone who gets one does it.
Tom
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Okay fair enough. Maybe you're right. I have so far been given only a few examples, and I believe I have shown that my broad brush applied. I am certainly open to hear more examples.

Why does a mother or father choose to blemish their skin with the names of their children? Give me any good reason, and I will show you that it is due to a lack of self confidence, and a lack of self identity.
 
lewisnotmiller

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
Sonofason said:
It is up to you and for you to decide whether or not a lack of self confidence is a flaw. I see all people as being greatly flawed in one way or another. Some people have too much confidence...others have too little confidence. If you need a tattoo to feel like you belong, get a tattoo. If you feel like you don't need one, don't get one. I really don't care. I'm just pointing out what I believe is a fact.
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Nah, I don't have a tattoo, and wouldn't get one. But I know people without tattoos who lack confidence. And people with tattoos who do not.
Agree with you about people being flawed, btw, just don't see tattoos as a simple way of telling HOW.

But my aim here was really just to make you stop and think. Do you really think EVERY MEMBER of the Maori people was lacking in self confidence? Like...all of them? And ALL the Yoruba? And ALL the Kalinga? How would you know enough to be able to make such a claim? How would you think a whole PEOPLE could be lacking in self confidence, and not run the gamut from over-confident to shy that I have always observed?

Sonofason said:
I'm not sure what you mean here when you said, "That the tattoos and piercings are only about adornment, and don't also serve practical purposes?". It isn't really a complete sentence.
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You're right. Grammatically it's not great. More conversational in structure. I merely meant you seem to be assuming tattoos are adornments/decorations only.

Sonofason said:
But let me try to answer as I think I see the question. If you get a tattoo because your life depends on it, like if your tribal leaders were going to murder you if you don't get one, which I suppose would be a practical purpose for getting a tattoo does seem to fall outside the parameters I was speaking of. Being forced to get a tattoo is not getting a tattoo by your own free will. In the same sense, having a tattoo placed into your skin while you were strapped to a table against your will might not apply to my broad brush as well. But, I was referring to those who of their own free will choose to blemish their skin.
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Cultural pressures and cultural conventions are real, though, regardless of whether people are 'forced'.
But maybe a practical example works better. I mentioned the Kalinga in my earlier post. There are much more sophisticated examples, but theirs might suffice to convey my meaning.

If you have time, this is worth a quick read : http://hauteculturefashion.com/kalinga-tattoos-philippines/

But in brief, men 'earned' tattoos via valour defending their village. Much as soldiers earn medals.
For women, it was more a mark that they were considered women, rather than girls.

Sonofason said:
I would like to hear why you thought of circumcision as falling into the same bucket. I do not believe it does. But before I answer your question, I'd like to hear why you brought it up?
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Sure, that's fair. I need to give some background to be clear, so apologies for the ramble.
Tattooing isn't for me. I just don't see the appeal personally. But I'd see that as personal preference. People who have issues with tattooing on a more holistic basis often seem to see it as some sort of bodily degradation.

So I was trying to ascertain your opinion about something which similarly is a permanent body change, albeit one traditionally more palatable to Christianity. Or Judaism.
It was a stab in the dark, to be honest, as I have no idea what your opinion is on circumcision. Or piercings on women (ear rings, for example).
 
C

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
Sonofason said:
Why does a mother or father choose to blemish their skin with the names of their children? Give me any good reason, and I will show you that it is due to a lack of self confidence, and a lack of self identity.
Click to expand...

Dang. Is this that hard to see?
Celebration! I've got a baby! She's so wonderful I will celebrate with a tattoo.
Commitment! I have a son! He will always be my son. No matter what I will love him. I will tattoo his name on my chest as a symbol of that commitment.
Conversation starter! I will tattoo my kids name on my chest or other obvious part of me! That way people will ask me about it and I can talk for hours about my little precious. Because they asked.
Really, it's not that hard to understand if you care about people unlike yourself.
Tom
 
Sonofason

Sonofason

Well-Known Member
lewisnotmiller said:
Nah, I don't have a tattoo, and wouldn't get one. But I know people without tattoos who lack confidence. And people with tattoos who do not.
Agree with you about people being flawed, btw, just don't see tattoos as a simple way of telling HOW.
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I believe that all people who willingly blemish their skin with tattoos have a self identity deficiency. I can't tell you the source of their identity problems, and so I really can't tell you "HOW" they have come to this deficiency. But it is apparent, at least to me, that they all do it in order to somehow add to their self worth.

lewisnotmiller said:
But my aim here was really just to make you stop and think. Do you really think EVERY MEMBER of the Maori people was lacking in self confidence? Like...all of them? And ALL the Yoruba? And ALL the Kalinga? How would you know enough to be able to make such a claim? How would you think a whole PEOPLE could be lacking in self confidence, and not run the gamut from over-confident to shy that I have always observed?
Click to expand...
Yes, I think I do.
Yes, all of them.
Yes, all the Yoruba.
Yes, all the Kalinga.
I don't know enough to really substantiate my claim. It is simply something which I have observed, and so far the shoe seems to fit all of them.
First tell me why a whole people feels the need to blemish their skin with tattoos, then I will tell you why the whole people have an identity deficiency.
I am an over confident person with my identity, and I have no tattoos. I'm guessing you're a bit over confident as well, and so you have no need for tattoos either.

lewisnotmiller said:
You're right. Grammatically it's not great. More conversational in structure. I merely meant you seem to be assuming tattoos are adornments/decorations only.
Click to expand...
Please give me an example of a reason for willingly getting a tattoo that you would think that I might not consider an adornment/decoration.

lewisnotmiller said:
Cultural pressures and cultural conventions are real, though, regardless of whether people are 'forced'.
But maybe a practical example works better. I mentioned the Kalinga in my earlier post. There are much more sophisticated examples, but theirs might suffice to convey my meaning.

If you have time, this is worth a quick read : http://hauteculturefashion.com/kalinga-tattoos-philippines/
Click to expand...

This is what I read that caught my attention:
“When I left my village I was ashamed of my tattoos. My daughter married a American solider, so when my husband died I moved to New York with them. It was there I realised that tattoos were often associated with criminals. I felt embarrassed and tried to cover them up. But later people would ask me about more and more about my culture, and they wanted to see my tattoos. I felt proud to be a Kalinga women.”

lewisnotmiller said:
But in brief, men 'earned' tattoos via valour defending their village. Much as soldiers earn medals.
For women, it was more a mark that they were considered women, rather than girls.
Click to expand...

It seems that in all these examples, the tattoo increases the persons feelings of self worth. Why does a person desire greater feelings of self worth if they are not lacking that to begin with?

lewisnotmiller said:
Sure, that's fair. I need to give some background to be clear, so apologies for the ramble.
Tattooing isn't for me. I just don't see the appeal personally. But I'd see that as personal preference. People who have issues with tattooing on a more holistic basis often seem to see it as some sort of bodily degradation.

So I was trying to ascertain your opinion about something which similarly is a permanent body change, albeit one traditionally more palatable to Christianity. Or Judaism.
It was a stab in the dark, to be honest, as I have no idea what your opinion is on circumcision. Or piercings on women (ear rings, for example).
Click to expand...

I am not really sure what God had in mind when he made the covenant with Abraham that involved the circumcision of ALL of Abraham's male descendants. Perhaps it was like a mark or a tattoo, something to set that group apart from all other groups. I really don't know the answer. I don't really understand that covenant that God had made with Abraham.

And I see piercings as being pretty much the same as tattoos.
 
Sonofason

Sonofason

Well-Known Member
columbus said:
Dang. Is this that hard to see?
Celebration! I've got a baby! She's so wonderful I will celebrate with a tattoo.
Commitment! I have a son! He will always be my son. No matter what I will love him. I will tattoo his name on my chest as a symbol of that commitment.
Conversation starter! I will tattoo my kids name on my chest or other obvious part of me! That way people will ask me about it and I can talk for hours about my little precious. Because they asked.
Really, it's not that hard to understand if you care about people unlike yourself.
Tom
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I don't think so Tom. I don't see it. I don't celebrate anything by blemishing my skin. I don't need a blemish on my skin to be committed.
And conversation starters I believe fall into the category of acquiring a sense of personal value and worth. "Yay, now that I have a tattoo, people want to talk to me. Now I must be cool."
 
Sonofason

Sonofason

Well-Known Member
columbus said:
That is Jewish, not Christian. Jesus is purported to sum up The Law with "Love God and Love your Neighbor ". Nothing about tattoos.
Tom
Click to expand...
You can sum up the law how ever you want. But Jesus said. "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." Jesus is the savior who is capable of redeeming us from our sin. The Law is for Christians as well. The Law is for Muslims as well. It's just not for you apparently.

But since Jesus said that the law stands, everything written in the law stands against everyone. The Law stands against you as well, hence your need of redemption in Christ.
Thus because Jesus said that the law stands, tattoos are included in that one little statement that I highlighted for you.
 
Sonofason

Sonofason

Well-Known Member
sovietchild said:
Yes. Correct. At list that's the way I see it. Who surrenders and submits to one and only God.
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Now, If I understand this statement correctly, I should be able to make the following two statements, and they should mean the same exact thing.

I am a Muslim because I surrender and submit to the one and only God.
I am a Believer because I surrender and submit to the one and only Allah.

Are these two statements identical?
 
D

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
columbus said:
That is Jewish, not Christian. Jesus is purported to sum up The Law with "Love God and Love your Neighbor ". Nothing about tattoos.
Tom
Click to expand...

Actually, some christians follow that rule. There is a tradition of rules laws that aren't actually modified in the NT, being adhered to. This is a Christian subject that differs via the way different Christian groups regard the OT, generally
 
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