Transgender people cannot be godparents, says Vatican

[Koldo]

And I don't see how it's a problem.

The question of a person's gender is irrelevant when the requirements the person is subject to have nothing to do with gender.

It is a problem because the church would be in a situation where it can't please both sides. There is no middle ground.
On one hand, recognizing a transsexual male as a godfather would entail that he is a man. It is certain that a decision like this would alienate the most conservative supporters of the church, at the very least.
On the other, accepting a transsexual male as a godparent but only recognizing him as a godmother would deeply upset transsexual individuals.

 

[Koldo]

The Spanish bishop forced their hand by demanding an answer now. If, 20 years from now, trans was viewed more like a congenital birth defect that can be treated with modern medicines, the answers might have been different.
Tom

I am not so sure about the '20 years from now'. It might take much longer than that. But I agree with you.

 

[Apologes]

I must confess I haven't read the entire topic so excuse me if this has been brought up before...
However, If the church was to accept transsexual individuals as godparents, how would they be labeled by the church? Would a trans man be regarded as a godfather or as a godmother ?
Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

lmao I can see that being a problem for so many priests.

Vatican did it right - just stick to the big book and don't complicate things.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It is a problem because the church would be in a situation where it can't please both sides. There is no middle ground.
On one hand, recognizing a transsexual male as a godfather would entail that he is a man. It is certain that a decision like this would alienate the most conservative supporters of the church, at the very least.
On the other, accepting a transsexual male as a godparent but only recognizing him as a godmother would deeply upset transsexual individuals.

I don't see what any of this has to do with baptism or being a godparent specifically. What you describe is an issue with any situation where the Church or its representative might want to refer to a transsexual person by gender.

 

[Koldo]

I don't see what any of this has to do with baptism or being a godparent specifically. What you describe is an issue with any situation where the Church or its representative might want to refer to a transsexual person by gender.

Indeed, however, I believe that this particular situation would eventually lead to the church being forced to take a stance.

 

[columbus]

Vatican did it right - just stick to the big book and don't complicate things.

Nope.
There is nothing in the big book referring to either trans or godparent.

Unfortunately, this lack does make people feel free to make stuff up and attribute it to The Creator. Fallible humans can easily make up their own minds, then look for ancient verses that could be interpreted to mean that God agrees with them.
Tom

 

[MountainPine]

Yes, and the bulk majority of them function very well and fairly normally within society.

Being able to function in society has absolutely no relevance to being natural or not.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Whoever said anything about "easy"?

To clarify, it's not always that easy in reference to it necessarily being just about having the choice to over those issues. What is confidence and good self-esteem to someone whose never had them? Of course you have to want to make yourself better, but moments of epiphany are rarely, if ever, moments we choose. Someone may improve and better themselves, but it's likely that in many of those cases there was a catalyst(s) outside of their control. What makes this issue especially hard is that when you put efforts into reaching out and making efforts to try to improve the situation, it's met with complaints of being too "touchy-feely," justifications of bullying, and insistence that people "learn lessons" on their own. Another issue with dismissal of the issue as a choice is that it neglects the fact low-self esteem can be a perpetual downward spiral that worsens as comorbid disorders develop and accumulate.
What makes it matter in regards to the OP is that what the Vatican has done is perpetuate of wide and deeply rooted social disapproval of transsexuals. It's what makes it pretty much impossible to just make it a choice to fix your situation when socially you are always being put down and have no support, and it gets even worse when add in being lead to believe that even god hates you on top of it the rest.
They shouldn't be censored, but they should be ready for the due criticism over such BS. And for the Vatican, what makes it worse, is the fact they dare say someone's existence is against their teachings but everybody knows they perpetuate a culture of rape. If Jesus is real, it's Christians like that will be the reason Jesus' 1000 year reign will be done with before he's done judging the ones who made him look bad, and he won't even be able to actually reign for a day.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Being able to function in society has absolutely no relevance to being natural or not.

It's more of a matter of why even bring it up or even insinuate that it isn't unnatural? Psychopaths generally aren't bad people, and only a slim minority of are the "cold blooded serial killers" Hollywood has made them all out to be. What we call zoophilia is actually common throughout nature, just never off spring producing given the genetic barrier. And it's not actually considered strange, unusual, or wrong in some cultures. As for pedophilia, "old enough to bleed, old enough to breed" isn't just a human idea, and I don't think animals have any age-restrictions when it comes to sex, but they too practice what we would call pedophilia. Jesus would probably love them more than anyone else who would approach them because the burden they bear is so great, but I don't even think they had a concept of pedophilia during Jesus' times.

 

[MountainPine]

It's more of a matter of why even bring it up or even insinuate that it isn't unnatural? Psychopaths generally aren't bad people, and only a slim minority of are the "cold blooded serial killers" Hollywood has made them all out to be. What we call zoophilia is actually common throughout nature, just never off spring producing given the genetic barrier. And it's not actually considered strange, unusual, or wrong in some cultures. As for pedophilia, "old enough to bleed, old enough to breed" isn't just a human idea, and I don't think animals have any age-restrictions when it comes to sex, but they too practice what we would call pedophilia. Jesus would probably love them more than anyone else who would approach them because the burden they bear is so great, but I don't even think they had a concept of pedophilia during Jesus' times.

It is a fallacy, both scientific and intellectual, to read animal nature into humans and vice-versa. I also get the impression that you equate "natural" with "normal." Based on that and your assumption of how Jesus would have thought and acted toward those who are perverse, I have concluded that you don't think there is anything wrong whatsoever with zoophilia and pedophilia in principle as well as in action. You're giving the appearance that you're a sick individual, and I don't mean that as an insult, but as a conclusion based on a blatant observation (by the things you post).

MODS: before you decide to accuse me of breaking Rule 1 again, please examine the content Shadow Wolf is presenting on RF before making a judgment. Thanks!

 

[Koldo]

It is a fallacy, both scientific and intellectual, to read animal nature into humans and vice-versa. I also get the impression that you equate "natural" with "normal." Based on that and your assumption of how Jesus would have thought and acted toward those who are perverse, I have concluded that you don't think there is anything wrong whatsoever with zoophilia and pedophilia in principle as well as in action. You're giving the appearance that you're a sick individual, and I don't mean that as an insult, but as a conclusion based on a blatant observation (by the things you post).

MODS: before you decide to accuse me of breaking Rule 1 again, please examine the content Shadow Wolf is presenting on RF before making a judgment. Thanks!

What is 'human nature' ?
How does one determine it ?

 

[ThorirTheHound]

What is 'human nature' ?
How does one determine it ?

Go fly to Iraq, stand at the captiol, burn a Quran and yell "may curses be upon Muhammad."

That should help you find out what human nature is

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It is a fallacy, both scientific and intellectual, to read animal nature into humans and vice-versa.

Tell me the astonishment and amazement this baboon experienced can't be read as what humans would normally and similarly experience.

I also get the impression that you equate "natural" with "normal."

No. Normal describes statistics. Natural describes things that just naturally occur.

Based on that and your assumption of how Jesus would have thought and acted toward those who are perverse

Considering he chastised his disciples numerous times while displaying the utmost love and respect towards some of societies lowest, I think my "assumption" is rather a solid interpretation based on how the stories of Jesus go.

You're giving the appearance that you're a sick individual

When have I ever implied that? Rather, I think I've been rather vocal that I was sick, I was self-destructing, and my lack of just not caring had me involved with various criminal activities. But that all began to change as I quit resisting myself and accepted who I am. I even went back to college and am working towards a master's and perhaps a doctorates because I wasn't sick anymore, I stopped hating myself, and I began to make plans, form goals, and work towards achieving things, and I'm continuing on improving myself in other areas, whereas before I barely had the drive to even get out of bed, and when I was awake I eventually hit the point where I was counting down the time until I could have a drink. That is all in the past now, and happened before I shaved my goatee off, shaved carpets-worth of body hair off, make myself up to look female, and for once could stand to look at myself in the mirror.

please examine the content Shadow Wolf is presenting on RF before making a judgment.

Pray tell, what content?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Go fly to Iraq, stand at the captiol, burn a Quran and yell "may curses be upon Muhammad."

Well, I suppose if anyone ever wants a Darwin Award there is a plan for them, lol.

 

[ThorirTheHound]

Well, I suppose if anyone ever wants a Darwin Award there is a plan for them, lol.

I don't understand what you mean? Islam is a RELIGION OF PEACE

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I don't understand what you mean? Islam is a RELIGION OF PEACE

What I mean, is specifically in Iraq, you'd probably be killed. Jordan maybe not, but you may not be welcomed back in.

 

[ThorirTheHound]

What I mean, is specifically in Iraq, you'd probably be killed. Jordan maybe not, but you may not be welcomed back in.

How could you say such lies? Islam is peace and love and understanding. I was implying that humans by nature think logically and don't react on emotion. Theyd accept you with open arms and talk to you calmly in a civilized manner as to why you are doing this.

 

[MountainPine]

What is 'human nature' ?
How does one determine it ?

Animals are driven by their instincts. Their instincts will often override their judgment. Humans are driven by conscience. We are not ruled by our instincts. Unlike animals we can create civilization, moral principles, abstract ideas, technology, etc. in which encopasses human nature—all of which animals cannot do.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

nlike animals we can create civilization, moral principles, abstract ideas, technology, etc.

Just about every animal has various ways to communicate, with some non-human primates having the ability to learn sign language (and even teach it to each other without prompting). And if you think animals are purely instinct-driven automatons who have none of those things you mention, you know very little about animals.

 

[MountainPine]

Just about every animal has various ways to communicate, with some non-human primates having the ability to learn sign language (and even teach it to each other without prompting). And if you think animals are purely instinct-driven automatons who have none of those things you mention, you know very little about animals.

The primates who know sign language only know it because humans taught them. Do primates naturally use sign language in the wild to communicate with each other? This is nothing more than a feeble attempt at backing up your notion that animals and humans share the same nature. It's quite laughable.