Is a trans man really a man or a trans woman really a woman?

[Father Heathen]

I am just saying that 99 women might be uncomfortable because one man is using the same restroom. So who makes the rules? Are you a man because you have male organs or are you a female because you just feel like it? If a man uses the women's restroom because he is "comfortable with it" does that mean the feelings of the women do not count?

What if a white person might be uncomfortable with a black person drinking from the same water fountain as them? Does that mean their feelings don't count?

Besides, do women perform some weird custom where upon entering the restroom they reach down each others panties to check for hidden peen before performing their business?

 

[SkepticThinker]

I am just saying that 99 women might be uncomfortable because one man is using the same restroom. So who makes the rules? Are you a man because you have male organs or are you a female because you just feel like it? If a man uses the women's restroom because he is "comfortable with it" does that mean the feelings of the women do not count?

We've gotten along this far without having to design special rules for who goes where. Why is it all of a sudden an issue now? Odds are, you've already shared a restroom with a transgender person at some point in your life anyway. And yet you continue to go on living without any problem.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Drinking water and using the bathroom are completely different. No one unfastens clothing to get a drink but everyone unfastens something to use the bathroom. We have a bathroom for people with penises and a bathroom for people without them. If a per with a penis just feels like using the bathroom for women then all the women are imposed on. Grabbing a drink from a fountain has nothing to do with it.

 

[columbus]

No one unfastens clothing to get a drink but everyone unfastens something to use the bathroom.

As far as I know, only guys using a urinal do that outside of a single seat cubicle.
Tom

 

[Father Heathen]

Drinking water and using the bathroom are completely different. No one unfastens clothing to get a drink but everyone unfastens something to use the bathroom. We have a bathroom for people with penises and a bathroom for people without them. If a per with a penis just feels like using the bathroom for women then all the women are imposed on. Grabbing a drink from a fountain has nothing to do with it.

Is there typically a lot of exposure to or interaction with each others genitalia in women's restrooms or something? You've probably had a transwoman in the stall next to yours on multiple occasions and were none the wiser.

BTW, do you think women would be comfortable using a restroom with this guy?

Well, he's a transman, with a vagina.

 

[columbus]

I've made fun of the mens room design at the restaurant my partner works for.
Due to the arrangement of the urinal and the placement of the door, with a handle you have to push, if a guy walks up and looks at the handle and walks in he is necessarily looking right at the junk of a guy using the urinal.
But the building is built and a privacy screen would be nearly impossible to retrofit reliably.
I just laugh and am careful to latch the door so as not to traumatize my more delicate brothers.

Tom

 

[VioletVortex]

A trans man is not genetically male. They originated with the female chromosome, and they still have it. However, their biological structure has been changed to the point where they are essentially physically male.

Socially, a trans man is a man, as they identify with male social characteristics.

 

[Revoltingest]

Following this logic you can relativize any term and then language all words are meaningless.

That's what I try to avoid.

 

[Revoltingest]

In "Star Trek" it was said that "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few." So is it more important to allow the 99% of women who prefer to use a restroom without men around or allow the 1% of men who think of themselves as women to use whatever restroom they prefer? Should it be based on anatomy or feelings?

That's a Vulcan standard.
(They're a bunch of sticks in the mud.)
I prefer a more individualist system.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Yes, I'm really a man.

Chromosomes really don't mean all that much. Sexual differentiation and development is a complex process. Many things can happen along the way to make the outcome something different than we may expect. There's various genes and hormones all involved in the process. There's various intersex conditions and more than two karotypes (chromosome combinations), so chromosomes aren't a good way of discerning biological sex. Then there's examples of people being born with reproductive tissues of both sexes. They're not true "hermaphrodites" (which don't really exist in humans and is an outdated term). But it's more like males being born with ovarian tissues (such as ovotestes) and males being born with full-fledged uteruses, while having male external genitals and a male gender identity. They often don't know until something happens to make them get checked out by a doctor and it's discovered decades down the line. So there's many different things that can happen.

With transsexuals, there's studies that have shown that our brains, at least in certain areas, are different from the brains of our presumed chromosomal sex. There's also been a gene identified that's associated with male to female transsexuals, iirc. There's also something called "digit ratio". For some reason, prenatal androgen exposure effects the length of the index and ring fingers. Males tend to have a longer ring finger than their index fingers. Females tend to have ring and index fingers that are about equal length or an index finger that's a little longer than their ring finger. Transsexuals follow suit. I'm a female to male transsexual and my ring finger is about a knuckle longer than my index finger, pointing to me being exposed to high levers of androgens while in the womb.

Transsexualism appears to be a sex differentiation disorder. it's a medical condition. Apparently something happens in utero where the brain is hit with a high level of the hormones of the opposite sex (an XX karotype fetus being exposed to high levels of androgens, for example) and this causes the brain to develop more in the fashion of the opposite sex. This can cause the child to end up having a sex/identity that's the "opposite" of their chromosomal sex.

Of course, science doesn't have definite answers on this topic. We're still learning. But the evidence points to transsexualism (which is a medical term) being a neuro-biological issue. But the evidence is that clear that those with strong sex dysphoria (because the dysphoria is really caused by the brain expecting one bodily setup but finding another and it can't handle) are best treated with hormonal therapy and/or surgery to treat the dysphoria.

As for gender identity, you know what your identity is in early childhood. It's something enduring and can't be changed. Cissexuals (those whose gender/sex identity isn't in conflict with their bodily setup and biological sex) just don't think much about it because they have no reason to - there's no conflict that causes them to question it. But transsexuals know that something isn't right from a very young age. I always perceived myself as a male, from my very earliest memories.. When puberty rolled around, I was not happy and in denial about my breast development for a time.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I'll also add that this has nothing to do with socialization. I wore dresses at times as a kid and played with girl's toys sometimes (I still like stuffed animals), but that didn't change that I still always perceived myself as a male. Even today, I'm fine with "girly stuff" (shoot, I'd even cross dress if I felt like it), and am not macho. I identity as a queer man. Masculinity and femininity are not the same as being male/female or experiencing yourself as such. There's fem trans men and butch trans women. It's like how a cissexual man who likes to cross dress, wear makeup, be androgynous, etc. doesn't make him a woman.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

We've gotten along this far without having to design special rules for who goes where. Why is it all of a sudden an issue now? Odds are, you've already shared a restroom with a transgender person at some point in your life anyway. And yet you continue to go on living without any problem.

The bathroom thing is a manufactured controversy made up by idiots. People have been "passing" as the opposite sex for millennia. Medical sex changes have been happening for almost a century now, ever since they figured out what hormones were and how to synthesize them for medical use. So we've been around for a long, long time. People just haven't been paying much attention. Sometimes a transsexual would become famous now and then (like her in the '50s: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christine_Jorgensen), but it's recently become a bigger issue because of the LGBT rights movement.

I mean, really. Women like these aren't a threat to anyone in the ladies' room:

 

[LuisDantas]

Transgenders are people who have a certain biological gender and are psychologically suited to the other gender.

If they don't get to decide what is their "real" gender, I don't know who would.

One could possibly decide that their psychology does not decide their gender - but that amounts to deciding that their biological origins are more relevant than their actual self-images and minds.

I don't think that can be done ethically, so yes, for all but strictly biological purposes, trans men are indeed men, and trans women are indeed women.

 

[SkepticThinker]

The bathroom thing is a manufactured controversy made up by idiots. People have been "passing" as the opposite sex for millennia. Medical sex changes have been happening for almost a century now, ever since they figured out what hormones were and how to synthesize them for medical use. So we've been around for a long, long time. People just haven't been paying much attention. Sometimes a transsexual would become famous now and then (like her in the '50s: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christine_Jorgensen), but it's recently become a bigger issue because of the LGBT rights movement.

I mean, really. Women like these aren't a threat to anyone in the ladies' room:

Exactly. I agree that it's manufactured garbage. Nobody would even know the difference if one of these people entered the women's restroom. I don't really get it anyway. When I go to the restroom I don't stand around checking everyone out and making sure they're the right sex. I go to do my business and leave as quickly as possible.

I think maybe people can't imagine what transgendered people may look like. Maybe they imagine some big motorcycle biker dropping his trousers in the middle of the ladies room or something. I'm not quite sure. But the sooner people realize there's nothing to fret about and that they've pretty much always been sharing restrooms with transgendered people their entire lives, the better. This restroom thing is such a non-issue to me.

 

[Tulipbee]

Hey everyone. I am not asking this question out of a desire to offend anyone but out of a desire to learn more. I have heard many people say that a trans man is really a man and a trans woman is really a woman but this is something that I do not understand. How is it possible for a trans man to really be a man when this person's chromosomes say that this person is a woman? Also, how is it possible for a trans woman to really be a woman when this person's chromosomes say that this person is a man?

trans is nothing more than Halloween, everyday, 24/7. Halloween is a day to wear a mask to be someone else for a day. they want to be someone else everyday but to bible states that men should not confuse other men like that

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Everyone remembers Michael Jackson. He started singing as a young boy with dark skin and an Afro hairstyle. Later, his skin became lighter and his hairstyle changed. Did that mean he was no longer African-American? No, he just changed his outward appearance. So if a person is born male but lets his hair grow long and wears lipstick and a dress does that mean he is no longer a male? Or did he just change his outwaed appearance? Should he use the women's restroom? People who did that in the past were arrested.

 

[Vorkosigan]

interesting what this topic reveals of people

 

[columbus]

but to bible states that men should not confuse other men like that

Good evidence that the Bible was invented by primitive people.
Those people didn't even know where babies come from. They believed that a male "planted his seed" in a "vessel" . They didn't grasp the concept of gametes. They were not stupid, but they were ignorant. So on subjects like this, where we know far more than they did, I ignore their opinions on the matter.
Tom

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

trans is nothing more than Halloween, everyday, 24/7. Halloween is a day to wear a mask to be someone else for a day. they want to be someone else everyday but to bible states that men should not confuse other men like that

Wow, this post is ridiculously stupid. Oh, and the Bible says nothing of the sort. Sounds like you have the hots for trans women but feel guilty about it, so you're trying to blame the woman for your own insecurities. "They're confusing me!".

 

[Vorkosigan]

Wow, this post is ridiculously stupid. Oh, and the Bible says nothing of the sort. Sounds like you have the hots for trans women but feel guilty about it, so you're trying to blame the woman for your own insecurities. "They're confusing me!".

Hahaha