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Can the Living Pray for the Dead & Vice Versa?

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
Care to prove that people go to heaven before Judgment by book, chapter and verse?
What would it "prove," quoting "chapter and verse" of fiction? I can quote chapter and verse of Harry Potter and prove that the Cruciatus curse causes pain, or saying "Oculus reparo" will fix your eyeglasses.

Reading chapter and verse of your Bible, I can prove that Jesus is a cranky twit who curses poor, innocent fig trees because they don't bear fruit out of season. Guess what? No plants do that. (And your own Bible even says, "To everything there is a season..." so why couldn't Jesus just learn to live with that? Hum?)

Using chapter and verse from your Bible, I can "prove" that God is the unholiest, most merciless killer in all of the known universe, which you seem to think is pretty much okay, as long as he saves your ***. (And really, whose else would matter?)

Your bible tells people what to eat, and how to cut their hair, and what to wear -- yet it never even once tells them to brush their teeth, which would have done more good to more generations of humans than practically anything else they could have thought of. Why not, do you suppose? Your Bible tells
you the reasons (and the methods to be used) for killing your own children -- good thing, too, or they'd just get so out of control, right?

Tell me, what can you REALLY "prove" using the Bible?
 

Neo Deist

Th.D. & D.Div. h.c.
The bible is the source of proof for spiritual answers, where else would one want to go, other than to the creator for the answer?

Didn't I just say not to quote a man made holy book? Give us some proof without the use of said holy books.
 

Neo Deist

Th.D. & D.Div. h.c.
Yes, we know what happens after death, try reading the bible and it'll tell you, or use a commentary or concordance to see your mistaken belief that no one knows what happens after death.

Seriously? I have a Doctorate of Theology from seminary.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
The bible is the source of proof for spiritual answers, where else would one want to go, other than to the creator for the answer?
Rubbish. You yourself made the following statement just a few posts ago:
Why do you never use scripture to back up what you're assuming, as scripture is the answer, not your opinion. You can alleviate all those maybe's with answers by using the bible. When you die and are gone to the hadean realm you are either in paradise or a place of torment until judgment. They both know where they will ultimately end up at when judgment comes, but until judgment this is where they stay, either paradise or a place of torment where there's weeping and gnashing of teeth.
None of that is spiritual, but existential. Weeping and teeth gnashing are physical things.

Let me ask you a very important question: what are the chances that a Muslim, who has been a decent human being all of his life, who has obeyed his parents and his community and his religion, who has tried to help his fellows (even Christians) and in every way been an exemplary human, will go to heaven?

Actually, let's make that 3 questions by adding a Hindu and an atheist? What are they chances they'll get to your heaven?
 

Neo Deist

Th.D. & D.Div. h.c.

Not really. Doing Hebrew and Greek studies really opened my eyes to how inaccurate English translations can be...especially the 1611 KJV. There is a HUGE difference between a traditional teaching (what most go by) and a biblical one (which most don't actually know).

Answer this simple question per the Bible: do Christians go to Heaven when they die?
 

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Why do you never use scripture to back up what you're assuming,
Its one post only, and I'm not making an assumption but using the terms 'Possibility', 'Should' and 'We don't know'.

as scripture is the answer, not your opinion.
Love covers a multitude of sins, but not apparently in your opinion.

You can alleviate all those maybe's with answers by using the bible. When you die and are gone to the hadean realm you are either in paradise or a place of torment until judgment. They both know where they will ultimately end up at when judgment comes, but until judgment this is where they stay, either paradise or a place of torment where there's weeping and gnashing of teeth.
"Humble yourselves before the LORD and he will lift you up." (NIV James 4:10)
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Consider the possibility that those who appear dead to us still appear alive to themselves and are merely separated from us by time. They can pray for us. Can we pray for the people who live in the past? We should be able to. We don't know whether our prayers help them or not, but that doesn't mean that they don't. Maybe they do. Maybe that isn't what you are asking, however.
Yes, you got what I was at least trying to get at.

Again, this is not anything personal to me, especially since I have no belief in heaven anyway, but this point did come up on another thread, and I thought it was worthy of discussion. If one believes in "the communion of saints", which we know with certainty was a view held in the 2nd century church and beyond, it makes sense. However, I'm the last person to argue that it must be true.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Can the living pray for the dead? Sure! Does it do any good? Nah...they are dead.

Can the dead pray for the living? The jury is out because no one knows what happens after death. All we have are some varied religious and scientific beliefs. As soon as someone dies, goes through rigor mortis and then comes back to write a book, we will know more!
I have no particular belief in what may or may not happen to me after death, nor am I particularly bothered by not knowing. If there is something other than just my dead body that's left, fine; if there isn't, what difference does it make? I'm a firm believer in this however, namely to try and make at least my place on Earth a bit better than when I entered it.
 

JoStories

Well-Known Member
Care to prove that people go to heaven before Judgment by book, chapter and verse?
Unfair question IMO. He just said its his belief. Belief meaning that for him, its in the nature of a personal understanding. It would seem to me that you or anyone else for that matter, do not get to decide what another person believes. Can you prove your beliefs? And do that without a book written by men? I doubt it.
 

JoStories

Well-Known Member
Why do you never use scripture to back up what you're assuming, as scripture is the answer, not your opinion.[/U][/B] You can alleviate all those maybe's with answers by using the bible. When you die and are gone to the hadean realm you are either in paradise or a place of torment until judgment. They both know where they will ultimately end up at when judgment comes, but until judgment this is where they stay, either paradise or a place of torment where there's weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Regarding this sentence I highlighted, I would say the answer is that repeatedly posting verse after verse is against the rules of the forum. One can form opinions and express those opinions without the need to proselytize. And repeatedly posting verse after verse IS against the rules. As for the rest of what you say, most people would say that paradise is synonymous with heaven. That is what belief is about. You are free to disagree but here, in this forum, opinions are expressed in words of your own thought and not proselytizing.
 

JoStories

Well-Known Member
The bible is the source of proof for spiritual answers, where else would one want to go, other than to the creator for the answer?
Completely untrue. For you, the answers come from the Bible. For another, they may come from the Tanahk, or the Qu'ran, or the Vedas, or any of the other sacred texts that are part of that religion. Its hubris to think that only you have all the answers to spiritual questions. And it smacks of a 'holier than thou' mindset.
 

JoStories

Well-Known Member
This is exactly the kind of answer I was just referring to. How rude of you to sit in judgment of someone who achieved something that important. I, too, have a doctorate in theology. How in the world does that make another 'sad'? Have you ever truly studied the Bible or any other faith at all? I mean to say, study it in the original language and from historical import and from all extraneous sources that led to the Bible? Your arrogance is astounding.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Completely untrue. For you, the answers come from the Bible. For another, they may come from the Tanahk, or the Qu'ran, or the Vedas, or any of the other sacred texts that are part of that religion. Its hubris to think that only you have all the answers to spiritual questions. And it smacks of a 'holier than thou' mindset.

There is truth in all religions. I have the Holy Books of all Faiths the Hindu, Zoroastrian, Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Babi, Bahai, Buddhist and they all teach the same eternal truths.

I treasure them all in my library as gems of my heart and make no distinction between any of them. To say one is superior to the other comes not from truth but the ego.

Christ taught love and humility towards all. Superiority and supremacy and exclusiveness is alien to His true message.
 

shava

Active Member
Unfair question IMO. He just said its his belief. Belief meaning that for him, its in the nature of a personal understanding. It would seem to me that you or anyone else for that matter, do not get to decide what another person believes. Can you prove your beliefs? And do that without a book written by men? I doubt it.
The belief is in the scripture, which isn't written by mere men, but by men who were divinely guided to write only what God wanted them to write.
 

shava

Active Member
There is truth in all religions. I have the Holy Books of all Faiths the Hindu, Zoroastrian, Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Babi, Bahai, Buddhist and they all teach the same eternal truths.

I treasure them all in my library as gems of my heart and make no distinction between any of them. To say one is superior to the other comes not from truth but the ego.

Christ taught love and humility towards all. Superiority and supremacy and exclusiveness is alien to His true message.
The Islam religion does not teach what you imply, and neither does any of the others you mentioned, such as Love they neighbor, do you think the Qur'an teaches this, certainly not, they teach subdue or kill them if they do not convert to the Islam religion, now how Christian is that, it's not. We as Christians may disapprove of, for instance, gay people, but we do not hate them nor throw them from tall buildings, instead we try to teach them what the bible says, if they accept, great, if not we simply do not socialize with them, but we always respect them. Your analogy that all religions are good is horribly flawed.

King James Bible
There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death, Proverbs 14:12 . It's not difficult to distinguish from one over the other, as each have different messages, and by that one can come to the conclusion of which one speaks the truth.
(1) Its entirety; the whole of the Bible is inspired (Matt. 4:4; 5:17-18). In Matthew 4:4, Jesus responded to Satan’s temptation by affirming verbal plenary inspiration when He said, man is to live by every word (plenary) that proceeds out of the mouth of God (inspiration). In Matthew 5:17-18, Christ promised that the entire Old Testament, the Law and the Prophets, would be fulfilled, not abolished. In fact, He declared that not even the smallest Hebrew letter, the yodh, which looks like an apostrophe (‘), or stroke of a letter, a small distinguishing extension or protrusion of several Hebrews letters (cf. the extension on the letter R with it absence on the letter P), would pass away until all is fulfilled. Christ’s point is that it is all inspired and true and will be fulfilled.

(2) Its historicity; He spoke of the Old Testament in terms of actual history. Adam and Eve were two human beings, created by God in the beginning, who lived and acted in certain ways (Matt. 19:3-5; Mark 10:6-8). He spoke of Jonah and his experience in the belly of the great fish as an historical event (Matt. 12:40). He also verified the events of the flood in Noah’s day along with the ark (Matt. 24:38-39; Luke 17:26-27). He verified God’s destruction of Sodom and the historicity of Lot and his wife (Matt. 10:15; Luke 17:28-29). These are only a few illustrations; many others exist.

(3) Its reliability; because it is God’s word, the Scripture must be fulfilled (Matt. 26:54).

(4) Its sufficiency; it is sufficient to witness to the truth of God and His salvation (Luke 16:31).

(5) Its indestructibility; heaven and earth will not pass away until it is all fulfilled. Nothing can stop its fulfillment (Matt. 5:17-18).

(6) Its unity; the whole of the Bible speaks and witnesses to the person and work of Christ (Luke 24:27, 44).

(7) Its inerrancy; men are often in error, but the Bible is not; it is truth (Matt. 22:29; John 17:17).

(8) Its infallibility; the Bible cannot be broken, it always stands the test (John 10:35).
 
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shava

Active Member
Rubbish. You yourself made the following statement just a few posts ago:

None of that is spiritual, but existential. Weeping and teeth gnashing are physical things.

Let me ask you a very important question: what are the chances that a Muslim, who has been a decent human being all of his life, who has obeyed his parents and his community and his religion, who has tried to help his fellows (even Christians) and in every way been an exemplary human, will go to heaven?

Actually, let's make that 3 questions by adding a Hindu and an atheist? What are they chances they'll get to your heaven?
According to scripture, no chance at all, as the scriptures clearly say what one must do to be saved, and what church they must be added to, Romans 16:16, Acts 2:38-47, Mark 16:16.
 

shava

Active Member
What would it "prove," quoting "chapter and verse" of fiction? I can quote chapter and verse of Harry Potter and prove that the Cruciatus curse causes pain, or saying "Oculus reparo" will fix your eyeglasses.

Reading chapter and verse of your Bible, I can prove that Jesus is a cranky twit who curses poor, innocent fig trees because they don't bear fruit out of season. Guess what? No plants do that. (And your own Bible even says, "To everything there is a season..." so why couldn't Jesus just learn to live with that? Hum?)

Using chapter and verse from your Bible, I can "prove" that God is the unholiest, most merciless killer in all of the known universe, which you seem to think is pretty much okay, as long as he saves your ***. (And really, whose else would matter?)

Your bible tells people what to eat, and how to cut their hair, and what to wear -- yet it never even once tells them to brush their teeth, which would have done more good to more generations of humans than practically anything else they could have thought of. Why not, do you suppose? Your Bible tells
you the reasons (and the methods to be used) for killing your own children -- good thing, too, or they'd just get so out of control, right?

Tell me, what can you REALLY "prove" using the Bible?
The bible says you stand lost by your lack of belief in the word of God, and that those who are in that identical situation, it also tells us where they will spend eternity, which is separated from God, forever. I see no reason to continue this conversing with you, so this will be my last reply to your comment, good day.
 
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