Is it religiously wrong to commit a suicide?

[Unveiled Artist]

I see what you are trying to say. But the child is not hers in the sense that the child is her property or creation. The child is only hers in the sense that she has a relationship and association with the child. In a religious perspective we believe God had actually created us and given us life - that is, we would not be on this earth if God did not execute a plan to make it possible for us to live here. Therefore God's act of creation is deliberate and thoughtful. God has decided to use man as part of the process of creation. The mother and father play a small role in the creation of God's children - they are like employees in God's creation company. Therefore they have no authority over the life of the child.

I understand. Without the analogy, it seems god has the right to take a life because he created life. I find that wrong.

 

[McBell]

It was still not a suicide mission. He only allowed himself to die - he didn't try to get himself killed.

It was then indeed suicide.
Passive Suicide.

That you dislike the word does not change the fact.

 

[psychoslice]

Of course not.

Well he did come here to die, and he knew he was going to die, what else would you call that ?.

 

[Thanda]

I understand. Without the analogy, it seems god has the right to take a life because he created life. I find that wrong.

It is not, when you understand things as I do. God brings us into this world and he can take us out of it. But our life doesn't end when we leave the world. Our spirit is immortal.

 

[Aquitaine]

Because not every soul comes from the same source, has the same purpose, the same needs. Everyone is here under different terms to fulfill different objectives. So they start with different time-spans as related to their needs. Then according to how they perform in their environment, they gain merit or loose.

That sounds very deterministic.

 

[Tumah]

That sounds very deterministic.

And?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

It is not, when you understand things as I do. God brings us into this world and he can take us out of it. But our life doesn't end when we leave the world. Our spirit is immortal.

I guess we'll have to disagree. I don't know how to put it in a "god perspective" because I see god as life rather than an entity (or however put) with feelings, actions, and motives. So, I will use the mother/child example. Please look at the context.

Simply, if I were a mother and I had a child, I would not expect that I have a right to take my child's life because I gave a life. I don't see how I am in a role to do anything once that life has been created. It is no longer my child (even though that's how we see it) but a separate person in which we have a mother/child relationship.

In life, there is no ownership. We exist and have relationships with each other, but regardless our role-creator, human, animal, spirit, I see no distinction in persons just roles-and, our relationship is not (or should not be) a hierarchy.

In many cultures American included, the grand parents and ancestors on down are elders and seen with more wisdom in the community than children. I find that respectful; and, I disagree with that moral. A child learns from their parent as the parent learns from their child. My mother said to me once "you're just a child, what can I learn from you?" (I think I was, what, fourteen or so.) We have different roles and we are both human beings.

In a creator point of view, I will try to relate, regardless how personal the believer is to the creator, there is still a hierarchy relationship. The hierarchy can be soft such as "the Bible is the best source of knowledge" to more emphasis "a Muslim performing his or her set of prayers." It could be humble "bowing one's head in prayer" or more devotional "genuflecting in front the Eucharist."

It's respectful; and, I have done it too. It also is hierarchy, and something I never agreed with and never set right with me at heart.

From my point of view, life is sacred. No one has the right to take it regardless of who that person is, how that person is related to him, and whether or not that one person had a role in his existence or not. (Replace it with parent, god, or any person with a role of authority say building an army).

Our souls are immortal, yes; however, I don't bush off the flesh and look to the soul. Everything goes together. If we are to helping people out of suffering, we are not helping people spiritually. The Buddha says that we help physically too. The best way we do that is through our minds-mentally. It's not metaphysical or "spirit"ual.

So, to say that a creator can take things from life just as he gives it makes sense logically but morally, it doesn't. Once someone is on this earth, their flesh-their body, mind, and soul are a separate individual. If this not be the case, Christians can't have a relation-ship with god. That's not bad, it just means your connection with god is based on something than "two souls coming together."

As with taking a life, I can't part from that moral. God can be a creator, Joe Smoe, or Many Treasures Buddha, killing the body is wrong nonetheless.

 

[Thanda]

I guess we'll have to disagree. I don't know how to put it in a "god perspective" because I see god as life rather than an entity (or however put) with feelings, actions, and motives. So, I will use the mother/child example. Please look at the context.

Simply, if I were a mother and I had a child, I would not expect that I have a right to take my child's life because I gave a life. I don't see how I am in a role to do anything once that life has been created. It is no longer my child (even though that's how we see it) but a separate person in which we have a mother/child relationship.

There are two important differences between a mother and God with relation to life:

1. God actually brings about life into the earth; a woman (and a man) is but a tool in the creation process. For this reason she has no power over the life that is created. E.g. A painter uses a paintbrush to create a painting. The painting does not belong to the paintbrush and the paintbrush has no authority over the painting. The creator is the painter and he has authority over the painting.
2. A human being cannot restore another human being's life. That is, having taken life away and deprived a person of life, the murderer (even if that murderer is the mother) cannot bring that person back and cannot make up for the lost opportunity. In other words, taking a life creates a debt no human can repay. On the other hand when God takes a life he has all knowledge to ensure that he does it at the best time possible (for all of us will die - it is just a matter of when) and the power to restore to that person anything they may have lost through death, including life in the flesh via the resurrection.
3. God knows that when he takes a life he has not actually ended someone's life but has brought that person into another realm of existence.

In life, there is no ownership. We exist and have relationships with each other, but regardless our role-creator, human, animal, spirit, I see no distinction in persons just roles-and, our relationship is not (or should not be) a hierarchy.

In many cultures American included, the grand parents and ancestors on down are elders and seen with more wisdom in the community than children. I find that respectful; and, I disagree with that moral. A child learns from their parent as the parent learns from their child. My mother said to me once "you're just a child, what can I learn from you?" (I think I was, what, fourteen or so.) We have different roles and we are both human beings.

Whether you would like to believe hierarchies exist or not that fact is they do. Now I do not mean to say that there aren't times when thinking in terms of hierarchy is unhelpful. But the fact remains that God is perfect and we are not, he knows all things and we do not. We have the power to choose to reject God and his counsels. We can choose to not recognise his authority. Just because God is God it does not mean that he has to be my God or your God. But whatever we do it will not change the fact that God is the source of perfect knowledge, power, love, peace and joy. Whenever we reject him we are rejecting these blessings. And so as Christians we choose to humble ourselves before God. We chose to make him our King and leader. We chose to obey him and follow his counsels. And we believe we are blessed for making these choices.

Lastly, the Christian God is not a student. He has nothing to learn from you and me. He knows all things and he does not need our acknowledgement or our love. He has power in himself and is eternally the self-existent one.

From my point of view, life is sacred. No one has the right to take it regardless of who that person is, how that person is related to him, and whether or not that one person had a role in his existence or not. (Replace it with parent, god, or any person with a role of authority say building an army).

Life is sacred, yes. But what is life? If you limit the word life and say that it only applies to people who are on this earth then it is understandable why you believe God would be a bad person if he kills someone. But if you understand life to be the consciousness of the soul then you will understand that no life can be ended as life is eternal.

Our souls are immortal, yes; however, I don't bush off the flesh and look to the soul. Everything goes together. If we are to helping people out of suffering, we are not helping people spiritually. The Buddha says that we help physically too. The best way we do that is through our minds-mentally. It's not metaphysical or "spirit"ual.

All things are spiritual, even those things that seem to be purely physical. When a person is hungry their body is in distress. But also their mind and heart is distressed. When you feed them you not only relieve that physical hunger but you also heal they mental/spiritual distress.
Likewise when a person is physically sick they are also emotionally/mentally/spiritually distressed. When they are physically healed their spiritual wellness is also returned them.
So I repeat, everything that matters is ultimately spiritual. So when we die, the most important part of ourselves continues to exist.

So, to say that a creator can take things from life just as he gives it makes sense logically but morally, it doesn't. Once someone is on this earth, their flesh-their body, mind, and soul are a separate individual. If this not be the case, Christians can't have a relation-ship with god. That's not bad, it just means your connection with god is based on something than "two souls coming together."

As with taking a life, I can't part from that moral. God can be a creator, Joe Smoe, or Many Treasures Buddha, killing the body is wrong nonetheless.

This body will die anyway. And it is only by losing this body that we are enabled to receive the perfect and incorruptible body God has in store for us.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You do have good points. Here is one that stuck out.

This body will die anyway. And it is only by losing this body that we are enabled to receive the perfect and incorruptible body God has in store for us.

Since we have differing beliefs, it is hard to see this is true unless we found a common grounds of understanding each other. The best foundation I can somewhat agree with is that the body dies. Whether our souls come to god or no, well, as you can see on RF, everyone varies in opinion of that relation between body and god.

God actually brings about life into the earth; a woman (and a man) is but a tool in the creation process. For this reason she has no power over the life that is created.

I am using mother and child so it's easier to talk about god and man without changing theme. Since god and man relationship has so many interpretations that a mother and child don't have, it's easier to use that language instead.

Thinking context, if mother was god and child were man, and the mother had/created a child, once that child is on earth-his soul and his body is no longer the mother's. We say it is based on our relationship with our mother (or Father) but in reality (or how I see it, I guess), that isn't the case. If my mother dies before me or I die before her, she or I will still exist. This is both in body and spirit/soul. You can't separate the two.

That been said, if the mother/god created/have her child, that doesn't make the child literally her child. There isn't ownership. That's just, well, wrong. We have motherly instincts to take care of who we call our child and we still do even when they are well into adulthood, but I'm talking more technically not morally (if that's the right word).

So, if my mother took my life because she created me, that is wrong. If a creator took my life because he created me, that is wrong. Body and spirit/soul are one. They are not separate while we are on this earth. So, to say "okay, our body will die anyway" (my words), is really disregarding half of who you are. If I believed in god, that would be an insult for being created by god-both in flesh and in spirit.

A human being cannot restore another human being's life. That is, having taken life away and deprived a person of life, the murderer (even if that murderer is the mother) cannot bring that person back and cannot make up for the lost opportunity.

Going by my analogy, even if a human can restore a person's life, that doesn't give him, creator, bodhisattva, spirit, or human, any right to take it. I don't understand how restoring a life connects to our points, though.

Life is sacred, yes. But what is life? If you limit the word life and say that it only applies to people who are on this earth then it is understandable why you believe God would be a bad person if he kills someone. But if you understand life to be the consciousness of the soul then you will understand that no life can be ended as life is eternal.

The spirit is immortal, yes. The spirit isn't isolated. We are mind, body, and spirit. Yes, I am focusing on this life because this life is what we know (not just knowledge or intellect). This life-spirit and physical-is what we experience and how we live our faith, morals, or so have you. It is this life that I appreciate not the next life or the next. It's not a "bridge" to a better place. We are in a better place. We just have to live for our community, others, and ourselves rather than always looking on the news and interpreting what we see as if that "defines life." Like people say it's a bad world and so forth.

If we take on a different perspective, then this earth, this life would not be a bridge to a beautiful view. We would appreciate what we have now as the end because we do not know. Yes, we may be comfortable with faith and with our experiences, interpret that as knowledge. The results of faith being interpreted to make faith a fact. However, that's completely wrong. If you don't know, you don't know.

Anyway, so our body, mind, and soul are interconnected. Anyone, regardless if they are a tool that have a child or entity that created a child, it doesn't matter. Once that child or person is in this world-he has the right to live-in body, spirit, and mind. To deprive him of that because of a future with god makes it counterproductive to create him here in the firsts place.​

 

[Aquitaine]

And?

One has to wonder what would be the point in a deity granting "free will" to creatures - whilst rewarding/penalizing them depending on certain behaviours - if he's already predetermined what kind of "function" they will perform and how long they'll live.

 

[Tumah]

One has to wonder what would be the point in a deity granting "free will" to creatures - whilst rewarding/penalizing them depending on certain behaviours - if he's already predetermined what kind of "function" they will perform and how long they'll live.

One has to wonder why that is a question...

 

[Milton Platt]

No worries..
Only asking cause i really am intrigued about the subject...

So I really wonder if it is okay or not based on religious aspects to take your own life?

Now, if the answer is no.. Why not?

I Can assume that it got something to do with the fact that our body is not really ours to end and it is only up to god...
If so, How come its okay to take the life of someone else?
And of course not... I'm not talking about murder.. I'm talking about "Justified" murder...

Who claimed its OK to kill person A and not Person B?
In the ten commandments, i haven't seen any references to the fact you can kill someone if its war..
Or if he is a murderer...
Or if he is trying to kill you..
Or whatever reasons we humans find...

Now.. assuming GOD did say.. Ok ok... do not murder unless it is someone who tries to take your land or it will be safer for the environment to kill him or whatever...Than it's fine...

So if that is true, what if I know I am about to commit a terrible thing and the only thing to stop my self is to kill myself?

Please help a confused man

There are many references in the old testament of god commanding the Israelites to slaughter entire cultures and on a smaller scale, the instruction that you could beat a slave to death as long as he didn't die within a certain number of days from your beating. So it obvious that this god had no issue with murder (or whatever word substitute makes you comfortable)

 

[Aquitaine]

One has to wonder why that is a question...

Why, what is wrong with such a question?

 

[Milton Platt]

Why, what is wrong with such a question?

Well, it is an ill-formed question. Which religion, and which version of that religion are you asking for comment on. But even more importantly, it does not take a religion to make something right or wrong.

 

[Aquitaine]

Well, it is an ill-formed question. Which religion, and which version of that religion are you asking for comment on. But even more importantly, it does not take a religion to make something right or wrong.

Since I'm asking about Tumah's beliefs, I thought it was obvious: orthodox Judaism.

 

[Milton Platt]

It was still not a suicide mission. He only allowed himself to die - he didn't try to get himself killed.

He could have easily avoided it. He could walk on water, rise from the dead, but Herod was too much for him to handle?

 

[Milton Platt]

Well, it is an ill-formed question. Which religion, and which version of that religion are you asking for comment on. But even more importantly, it does not take a religion to make something right or wrong.

Since I'm asking about Tumah's beliefs, I thought it was obvious: orthodox Judaism.

Well, DUH.....I mistook you for the author of the original question. Sorry.

 

[Tumah]

Why, what is wrong with such a question?

There doesn't seem to be a relationship netween the two. G-d predetermines specific circumstances through which He will test each individual according to what the soul needs and within those circumstances, the person has the ability to choose either the eight or wrong option.
The circumstances and the choices are completely seperate elements.

 

[JoStories]

No worries..
Only asking cause i really am intrigued about the subject...

So I really wonder if it is okay or not based on religious aspects to take your own life?

Now, if the answer is no.. Why not?

I Can assume that it got something to do with the fact that our body is not really ours to end and it is only up to god...
If so, How come its okay to take the life of someone else?
And of course not... I'm not talking about murder.. I'm talking about "Justified" murder...

Who claimed its OK to kill person A and not Person B?
In the ten commandments, i haven't seen any references to the fact you can kill someone if its war..
Or if he is a murderer...
Or if he is trying to kill you..
Or whatever reasons we humans find...

Now.. assuming GOD did say.. Ok ok... do not murder unless it is someone who tries to take your land or it will be safer for the environment to kill him or whatever...Than it's fine...

So if that is true, what if I know I am about to commit a terrible thing and the only thing to stop my self is to kill myself?

Please help a confused man

As a Buddhist, I don't believe it is right to kill anyone for any reasons. Not that self, nor anyone who might be trying to harm you or take your land, using your questions.

 

[psychoslice]

As a human being seeing my own mother die slowly from cancer, yes I do believe in so called suicide, Its our life not some god in the sky, who doesn't care about anyone's life, except his own, well stuff him, I'll end my life when I want to, its not his damn business.