Is it religiously wrong to commit a suicide?

[JoStories]

There doesn't seem to be a relationship netween the two. G-d predetermines specific circumstances through which He will test each individual according to what the soul needs and within those circumstances, the person has the ability to choose either the eight or wrong option.
The circumstances and the choices are completely seperate elements.

Leaving aside the G-d part of this response, do you notice how similar this POV is to Buddhist teachings? And as such, do you think that Buddhism, which is arguably older than Judaism, had any influence on the way your faith developed? I am asking serious questions here and not trying to be a snarky poster.

 

[JoStories]

My answer to the title is this: in Islam, yes, it is religiously wrong to kill oneself. The norm for who do it is going to Hell, but that's just the norm and it really depends on circumstances. Those with mental problems, for example, are seen as an exception. The reason is because in Islam it is believed that humans were created mainly (not only, mind you) to worship God, humans don't ultimately (but not perfectly, if that makes sense) own their bodies, and because killing oneself (again, within the norm at least) shows the ultimate despair, and that's forbidden in Islam. The Quran does say it in a direct order tone in two places; do not kill your selves & do not send yourselves to your demise with your own hands. If we think of it logically, tons of cases in this life have those who either depend on them, care for them, love them, want to be with them, lent them stuff... and in so many cases there are who could receive serious damage losing who kill themselves. The other day I read about a suicide case that left behind two wives and 6 children (or was it 10?) here in Saudi Arabia. Imagine the possible hardship because of their loss in a male dominant country (the world is male dominant already, but that's a different subject).

Good morning dear one. Nice to see you. Question about this. If someone is truly suffering, say with cancer or something similar, is it still considered a sin in your faith to stop that suffering? It would seem to me that to have to watch a loved one suffer horribly and I have seen my share, and not allow them to end that suffering is as much an affront to God as not doing anything.

 

[psychoslice]

Yes religion should keep its nose right out of peoples decision on such things as wanting to end ones life, hell, its your life not some bozo in the sky.

 

[Tumah]

Leaving aside the G-d part of this response, do you notice how similar this POV is to Buddhist teachings? And as such, do you think that Buddhism, which is arguably older than Judaism, had any influence on the way your faith developed? I am asking serious questions here and not trying to be a snarky poster.

I don't know anything about Buddhism so I don't know how similar it is. And I'm probably the wrong person to ask this question anyway since I believe in the revelatory nature of my religion.

 

[Smart_Guy]

Good morning dear one. Nice to see you. Question about this. If someone is truly suffering, say with cancer or something similar, is it still considered a sin in your faith to stop that suffering? It would seem to me that to have to watch a loved one suffer horribly and I have seen my share, and not allow them to end that suffering is as much an affront to God as not doing anything.

Good morning/afternoon/evening, JS (it's afternoon here now).

Do you mean mercy killing here? If it's about suicide, please see my answer below.

By norm, yes, it would still be a sin to kill oneself to end suffering. However, Islam is a religion of consideration in rule application (cool, this rhymes). Such delicate cases could be an exception, depending on the intention (great, now I sound like I'm rapping). By that I mean who suffers from something could actually be able to take it no matter how sever it is and withstand it but decides to just run away from it with committing suicide. If that's the case, the norm would be that they committed an unquestionable sin. Some cases truly cannot take it and in a moment of a true weakness, they go with it. Such a case could get a pass, depending on its facts we humans may not realize. Only God knows one's true intentions and what's truly in their hearts. When Robin Williams committed suicide, people all over the internet bashed him for doing it. I snapped at them for this and got angry. We do not know his true intention or the reasons behind it, only God knows. We do not have the right to judge him for it.

Let's also keep in mind that losing life is the end of everything in this life as we know it. Once one dies, there is no coming back, no replay, no revising a decision, etc., and with that said, we did hear of cases of complete despair that so suddenly got resolved; someone hopelessly stuck under rubles for a long time waiting to die but rescue came before they knew it, a patient thought to have been lost but just before they die life comes back to them, and similar cases in which one could think of committing suicide but at the last moment help comes. If they lost faith/hope and did it without patience, it would be a great loss of no return.

Having that said above about suicide, I'll talk about mercy killing as a bonus (off-topic alert). Mercy killing is not an absolute pardon here. Someone in a deep coma for a so very long time might actually want to be in that condition instead of dying to wake up sometime in the future. This someone if had their life support removed just for the sake of a mercy killing, it's considered a murder in Islam, and I think generally in logic. That of course does not include the possibility of losing resources like losing life support supplies. That would be something incidental we do not control over, so consequences would be understood and should actually be respected as a part of faith in life and that things happen.

Generally speaking, Islam allows everything if a valid excuse presents itself. Actually, even obligations/requirements Islam encourages to neglect if a valid excuse is present, even if one can actually withstand it. It is said that God loves his pardons to be practiced.

I hope this answers your question.

Important note:
I could be wrong here, and things could be allowed even more than the allowance points I mentioned. And God knows better.

 

[JoStories]

Good morning/afternoon/evening, JS (it's afternoon here now).

Do you mean mercy killing here? If it's about suicide, please see my answer below.

By norm, yes, it would still be a sin to kill oneself to end suffering. However, Islam is a religion of consideration in rule application (cool, this rhymes). Such delicate cases could be an exception, depending on the intention (great, now I sound like I'm rapping). By that I mean who suffers from something could actually be able to take it no matter how sever it is and withstand it but decides to just run away from it with committing suicide. If that's the case, the norm would be that they committed an unquestionable sin. Some cases truly cannot take it and in a moment of a true weakness, they go with it. Such a case could get a pass, depending on its facts we humans may not realize. Only God knows one's true intentions and what's truly in their hearts. When Robin Williams committed suicide, people all over the internet bashed him for doing it. I snapped at them for this and got angry. We do not know his true intention or the reasons behind it, only God knows. We do not have the right to judge him for it.

Let's also keep in mind that losing life is the end of everything in this life as we know it. Once one dies, there is no coming back, no replay, no revising a decision, etc., and with that said, we did hear of cases of complete despair that so suddenly got resolved; someone hopelessly stuck under rubles for a long time waiting to die but rescue came before they knew it, a patient thought to have been lost but just before they die life comes back to them, and similar cases in which one could think of committing suicide but at the last moment help comes. If they lost faith/hope and did it without patience, it would be a great loss of no return.

Having that said above about suicide, I'll talk about mercy killing as a bonus (off-topic alert). Mercy killing is not an absolute pardon here. Someone in a deep coma for a so very long time might actually want to be in that condition instead of dying to wake up sometime in the future. This someone if had their life support removed just for the sake of a mercy killing, it's considered a murder in Islam, and I think generally in logic. That of course does not include the possibility of losing resources like losing life support supplies. That would be something incidental we do not control over, so consequences would be understood and should actually be respected as a part of faith in life and that things happen.

Generally speaking, Islam allows everything if a valid excuse presents itself. Actually, even obligations/requirements Islam encourages to neglect if a valid excuse is present, even if one can actually withstand it. It is said that God loves his pardons to be practiced.

I hope this answers your question.

Important note:
I could be wrong here, and things could be allowed even more than the allowance points I mentioned. And God knows better.

You answered me beautifully my friend. Of course, I disagree with both POV but that is ok. Its simply that I see that removing a person from life support who is literally brain dead is a good thing. There is no reason to continue to support someone whose soul has already moved on. And in the case of suicide, I am torn on that one. As a Buddhist, we are learning and to stop that learning by committing suicide would not be what The One would want, IMO. It would be taking a life which even if its one's own life, it would still be taking one. But I do thank you my friend for such a wonderful answer. Namaste love.

 

[Smart_Guy]

You answered me beautifully my friend. Of course, I disagree with both POV but that is ok. Its simply that I see that removing a person from life support who is literally brain dead is a good thing. There is no reason to continue to support someone whose soul has already moved on. And in the case of suicide, I am torn on that one. As a Buddhist, we are learning and to stop that learning by committing suicide would not be what The One would want, IMO. It would be taking a life which even if its one's own life, it would still be taking one. But I do thank you my friend for such a wonderful answer. Namaste love.

Yes, that's quiet understandable. I too disagree with the counter PoV as well, and that does not hurt. We have a saying in my culture that roughly translates to "having disagreement in views does not hurt harmony and respect". It's just a matter of beliefs. Perhaps, as an example of what the discussion just mentioned, it's our belief that commas don't always mean the soul has moved on/the patient is really dead, is what makes those beliefs/PoV's.

By the way, brain dead does indeed mean dead to us too. I'm talking about cases of which one is not dead for certain that one just decides to consider it death and take away the life support, like long commas. Cases with hope but one decide it's hopeless with no certain proof.

I love how such a discussion takes place. I wish other RF member learn form it. Bless you, JS

 

[Aquitaine]

There doesn't seem to be a relationship netween the two. G-d predetermines specific circumstances through which He will test each individual according to what the soul needs and within those circumstances, the person has the ability to choose either the eight or wrong option.
The circumstances and the choices are completely seperate elements.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree here. I cannot see how having a god intervene with such a level of pre-determinism can then accurately assess its subjects "free will" and reward/punish them for it. It seems inconsistent.

 

[Tumah]

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree here. I cannot see how having a god intervene with such a level of pre-determinism can then accurately assess its subjects "free will" and reward/punish them for it. It seems inconsistent.

I'm not sure why you have difficulty understanding this. The concept seems pretty elementary. For the sake of over-simplicity, let's say you have a bird soul. G-d won't incarnate that soul as a dog, because the life of a dog won't provide adequate circumstances for a bird soul to make the right choices in a manner appropriate for it. Bird souls need bird circumstances and dog souls need dog circumstances.

 

[Aquitaine]

I'm not sure why you have difficulty understanding this. The concept seems pretty elementary. For the sake of over-simplicity, let's say you have a bird soul. G-d won't incarnate that soul as a dog, because the life of a dog won't provide adequate circumstances for a bird soul to make the right choices in a manner appropriate for it. Bird souls need bird circumstances and dog souls need dog circumstances.

Using your example: the very decision to specify which creature the "type" of soul is born in to drastically limits it's capacities for individual "free" expression for the assessment of its behaviour.
To compound the issue, free will is further reduced by active bonuses/penalties based on choices made.

 

[Tumah]

Using your example: the very decision to specify which creature the "type" of soul is born in to drastically limits it's capacities for individual "free" expression for the assessment of its behaviour.
To compound the issue, free will is further reduced by active bonuses/penalties based on choices made.

I think there are a few points here:
- If each creature is created to fit a certain set of circumstances, then no one can be said to be more limited than another. Just the opposite, their circumstances provides the maximum ability to express their form of free-will.
- If everyone were to be the same, but placed in difderent circumstances, that would limit some people's free-will more than others.
- Free-will in a Jewish context, is not the ability to choose which color shirt to wear. Its the ability to choose a godly or non-godly course of action at the point where one is torn about which to choose. Its not something expressed all the time, nor is it static.
Its encouraged with a system of reward and punishment and the effects of the encouragement are mitigated by our inability to directly and immediately experience the consequences of our choices.