Why the Hell . . . .

[habiru]

That's a very beautiful parable but to reiterate my main point I still fail to understand how we are not under law

The laws was fulfilled by Jesus, because we are to weak to fulfilled them all, and the laws were suppose to produce good, not evil. The problem is that the inside wasn't clean, eventhough the outside may look clean, but the inside are filled with evil; and that prevent us from following the laws. And as it says, if you just violated just one, then you are suppose to be condemn forever. We are unable to make those required sacrifices in a temple, but we are unable to make those sacrifices. and so we are all in violation. And according to the laws, that there is no accuses that will be accepted, that they must be done. And so that is why that they were to be rmove, because we are unable to fulfilled them.

 

[Astravalon]

But it does says that our reward is with Him. It is important that God remembers us, because God can blot us out of His memory at anytime. That is why the ones that He listen to like Ishmael, that He will here there pleads (prayers), that they must pray for those that are lost, the ones that God doesn't remember.

Proverbs 15:29 The Lord is far from the wicked, but he hears the prayer of the righteous.

Isaiah 1:15 When you spread out your hands in prayer, I hide my eyes from you; even when you offer many prayers, I am not listening. Your hands are full of blood!

Isaiah 38:5 “Go and tell Hezekiah, ‘This is what the Lord, the God of your father David, says: I have heard your prayer and seen your tears; I will add fifteen years to your life.

Lamentations 3:8 Even when I call out or cry for help, he shuts out my prayer.

Lamentations 3:44 You have covered yourself with a cloud so that no prayer can get through.

Daniel 9:3 So I turned to the Lord God and pleaded with him in prayer and petition, in fasting, and in sackcloth and ashes.

Revelation 22:12 “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done.

I see much of that scripture as being from the perspective
of the individual person. I don't think God actually shuts
anyone out or forgets anyone.

If Psalm 139:7-12 has anything to say about it, one can't
be outside of His presence even if they tried.




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[Astravalon]

As far as any of us are concerned this life is our eternity. Its all that is tangible, so to deprive someone of it is an eternal punishment. Eternal in the sense that you cannot return from it to enjoy the state of being that your killer deprived you from.

I agree that our life is our eternity, as I am persuaded that
we are eternal beings, but this isn't contingent upon having
a physical body. Our true selves, our spirit, exists whether
or not we're wearing an 'earth-suit' at any given time.

So the government—or any human being or establishment—
is incapable of punishing someone for all eternity. They may
take actions that change the course of one's existence, i.e. put
them to death (or, more accurately, shut down their physical
body), but that doesn't necessarily mean things have changed
for the worse for that individual.

I'm also curious as to how you believe in God but disbelieve in hell if you don't mind me to ask such a personal question

I don't mind at all.

Actually, not everyone who believes in God believes in hell.
In fact, the greater God has been in my estimation, the less
need for a hell in my theology. He's just too competent to
settle for such a barbaric solution to mankind's (perceived) ills.
I used to believe in hell, but over time and looking further
into it, it ultimately ended up making very little sense, at
least in combination with an all-powerful, all-knowing God
who not only has love as one of His attributes but is
actually Love it's very self.

Needless to say, though, this is a subject in which one's mileage
may vary, and the above is just my own conclusions, at this time.

How is this verse to be understand when measured up to the idea that we are under grace and not law

Well, I think that's just it. It's no longer about law, but grace.
At least, that's the way I read it. How the other 30,000
denominations read it might be another thing altogether.

My God is omnipresent and according to His revealed word the truth is that sin brings separation...But your iniquities have separated you from your God;
And your sins have hidden His face from you, so that He will not hear. Isaiah 59:2

Again, I think that such scriptures are articulating the
sense of being separated from God when one feels one has
done something to "upset" Him. No actual separation occurs.
If the bible were saying that one could be separated from
Someone Who is everywhere, it wouldn't make any sense.


-
-

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

See, we have this very cool thing called technology. I could prove any number of things to you should I want to. Whether through sending you a video or by streaming a video you could watch while blood was taken from me and my children and watch the process of it being tested and the subsequent results. You could see, with your own eyes, proof. Not just paper, but the step by step process, testing, and results.

My intelligence can be tested, my emotions can be analyzed, my thoughts can be expressed. You can feel the wind and see the effects of it yourself. You can go to a science class and learn how to do experiments for yourself to know all about uv rays.

None of that can be done in regards to deity.


Oh, if such a creator god exists it could do such, certainly. No one is saying it couldn't. What is being said though, is such punishment makes no logical sense. Especially when trying to speak about a supposedly loving god. Such punishment indicates a cruel, sadistic, malevolent deity. A vile puppet master. One that makes no logical sense. The concept of hell is just yet another reason to reject the concept of that particular god which would have hell in the first place. Either the god does not exist or, if it does, is certainly not worthy of worship.

Bravo!

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

Actually, not everyone who believes in God believes in hell.
In fact, the greater God has been in my estimation, the less
need for a hell in my theology. He's just too competent to
settle for such a barbaric solution to mankind's (perceived) ills.
I used to believe in hell, but over time and looking further
into it, it ultimately ended up making very little sense, at
least in combination with an all-powerful, all-knowing God
who not only has love as one of His attributes but is
actually Love it's very self.-

I absolutely agree, as does Draka above--all in the space of a couple of hours of member passersby.

 

[Draka]

Bravo!

 

[بِسْم الله]

See, we have this very cool thing called technology. I could prove any number of things to you should I want to. Whether through sending you a video or by streaming a video you could watch while blood was taken from me and my children and watch the process of it being tested and the subsequent results. You could see, with your own eyes, proof. Not just paper, but the step by step process, testing, and results.

My intelligence can be tested, my emotions can be analyzed, my thoughts can be expressed. You can feel the wind and see the effects of it yourself. You can go to a science class and learn how to do experiments for yourself to know all about uv rays.

None of that can be done in regards to deity.


Oh, if such a creator god exists it could do such, certainly. No one is saying it couldn't. What is being said though, is such punishment makes no logical sense. Especially when trying to speak about a supposedly loving god. Such punishment indicates a cruel, sadistic, malevolent deity. A vile puppet master. One that makes no logical sense. The concept of hell is just yet another reason to reject the concept of that particular god which would have hell in the first place. Either the god does not exist or, if it does, is certainly not worthy of worship.

I think two topics are being intertwined because of the option I used to reply so I'll try to address them separately. First I'll say that yes I am intentionally being ignorant in an attempt to illustrate a point. I am aware of all of the medical technology of which you speak. I am merely attempting to show you that each individual mind can refuse or reject proofs based on their opinion. If I watched the blood being drawn and watched all the tests first hand and then those tests were shown to me I could sling around a number of accusations. I could say the doctor lied I could say the computer malfunctioned yada yada yada. That would not change the reality of your maternity. So I'm saying that you can reject scriptural prophecy and archeological findings etc but that doesn't validate or invalidate God. I will also say that you will never find these tangible elements which prove God exists because he is completely seperate from his creation and no part of his creation bears any similarity or likeness to him. But you can look at the perfection of the natural world around you that God created. Planetary orbits. Eco system etc. finally I'll address our other topic. Who ever claimed that God was all loving, rainbows and sunshine. I'm almost positive that every world religion has definetly addressed the fact that God has a wrath and punishment. You fail to properly understand the dynamic because you're operating out of a false pretense that your mind has invented and then found contradiction with and then denied. But the realm in which all of these contradictions exist is your own mind not from religious teachings.

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

So I'm saying that you can reject scriptural prophecy and archeological findings etc but that doesn't validate or invalidate God.

Same result if you accept them. There is no evidence either way except completely unfounded hearsay, but there are plenty of human rationalizations, especially pro-faith.

I will also say that you will never find these tangible elements which prove God exists because he is completely seperate from his creation and no part of his creation bears any similarity or likeness to him.

I agree that you won't find any evidence, but the reason you won't, is because God must keep himself removed in order to maintain our free will. And the reason you won't find any evidence that God doesn't exist is because for God to have allowed it would be for It to allow lies.

But you can look at the perfection of the natural world around you that God created. Planetary orbits. Eco system etc

I agree again, a perfectly natural, rational (i.e. not supernatural) universe.

. finally I'll address our other topic. Who ever claimed that God was all loving, rainbows and sunshine. I'm almost positive that every world religion has definetly addressed the fact that God has a wrath and punishment.

Because at least all of the "revealed" ones were all man-made.

You fail to properly understand the dynamic because you're operating out of a false pretense that your mind has invented and then found contradiction with and then denied. But the realm in which all of these contradictions exist is your own mind not from religious teachings.

Thanks for the sermon. Telling us that reasoned, rational contradictions can all be answered with blind faith--aka false pretense that one's mind has invented..

 

[بِسْم الله]

Same result if you accept them. There is no evidence either way except completely unfounded hearsay, but there are plenty of human rationalizations, especially pro-faith.
So if we agree on that point we even eachother out. I can't prove it you can't prove it.


I agree that you won't find any evidence, but the reason you won't, is because God must keep himself removed in order to maintain our free will. And the reason you won't find any evidence that God doesn't exist is because for God to have allowed it would be for It to allow lies.




I agree again, a perfectly natural, rational (i.e. not supernatural) universe.
This illustrates my point fairly well. Your saying that you observe things based on rationale and reason and then insinuate that religion is not in agreement with that rational and reason. I would say that the foundation of your understanding of religion is incomplete with all due respect. it seems as if you think religion and all of the natural world around you are at odds. I would say that all of the things you and I perceive are a smaller representation of a larger idea. Example, God gave us logic and reason in order to facilitate the weighing of proofs in order to formulate ideas. Those ideas lead to action. If I were walking down the street and I saw a beautifully crafted building I would compliment the architect. So that perception is truth. Every created thing has an architect. I don't think anyone could dispute that. The theory of the Big Bang ( which is scientifically classified as a theory) version of events goes I was walking down the street and saw a beautiful masterpiece( stars moon orbits seasons etc.) and that beautiful building was generated from complete nothingness and sheer randomness. No where in our galaxy is that philosophy established as a rational observation. Theoretically the universe could have been created in that fashion but randomness is an illusion. It doesn't exist so how can we claim all of our comings and goings are based on it?


Because at least all of the "revealed" ones were all man-made.
I am a bit lost. You made an initial claim. Actually it may not have been you, I think you just replied onto the thread. Pardon my ignorance I don't really understand this process. The original claim was God is supposed to be all loving but hells existence contradicts that. I said that God never claimed to be all loving. So this is an example of setting up a standard based on sonething made up and then finding fault with it


Thanks for the sermon. Telling us that reasoned, rational contradictions can all be answered with blind faith--aka false pretense that one's mind has invented..

I would just like to apologize to you if I've given you the impression that I'm preaching to you. I actually have thoroughly enjoyed your logic and please pardon me if I have come across rudely.

 

[Muffled]

Concoct whatever definitions you need to.

So, what is your criteria for evidence? And does this mean that everyone who has died is now in heaven? Or do you envision some kind of way station for those without the necessary qualifications for either place?


In as much as you don't see any reason to believe anyone is now in hell, what difference does its function make? And even if it serves to simply contain the baddies, why torment them, make them suffer for all eternity? Does god simply get a kick out of making people suffer?


.

I believe I don't need to because the evidence speaks for itself. At the last judgement people are raised from Hell which means that it wasn't the end when people went there.

I believe I would accept as evidence God saying that someone is in Hell. I believe in re-incarnation. I believe anyone waiting for that is either doing it in the grave or in the ether. I believe the only qualifications for Heaven would be if the person wanted to go there; knew how to get there and God allowed it.

I believe the suffering is largely self induced.

I believe He does not.

 

[ThirtyThree]

Justice is achieved, for rebelling against God and sinning against Him, those who reject Him will be punished for it, and that is right and fair. But thanks be to God, who has provided a way of salvation through Jesus Christ, even though we deserve God's wrath, He sent His Son to pay the price and take the punishment His people deserved, so that they may call upon the name of Jesus, trust in Him and be saved.

Yeshua gave the sons and daughters of man a locked door to paradise and a key. However, there are conditions regarding what happens when one opens the door and walks through.

 

[ThirtyThree]

Disagreeing with God's morals doesn't make God cease to exist or cease to be the judge that will hold all to account. And thinking His judgements hateful or foolish does not make them so.

Man's opinions regarding Yahweh are irrelevant. Only man's choice between good or evil matters.

 

[ThirtyThree]

The wrongdoing against God deserves that particular punishment, that is simply the objective reason. One explanation is that as God is infinitely worthy, to rebel against Him deserves infinite punishment. That isn't confirmed or denied in the Scriptures however, but that's one possible explanation. What matter is that this is the punishment that is deserved.

Infinite punishment is hardly something man can understand. Their agreement or disagreement thus has no weight. Do you claim yourself so wise that you understand the full gravity of infinite punishment enough to endorse it? If so, do you also claim to be the second coming? Your people are awaiting you, if so. Please, do me a favor and remove them from my Father's Kingdom. However, if you are not the second coming, realize one simple thing before you endorse infinite anything, especially punishment. We are limited beings and we get one choice in our lives. We are not qualified due to being finite to comprehend the infinite. Understood?

 

[Skwim]

I believe I don't need to because the evidence speaks for itself.

But you have concocted the definition you need, with your

"I believe "Eternal" does not mean final. There are two meanings: one is never ending but the other is having no time at all. I believe the latter describes Hell."​

At the last judgement people are raised from Hell which means that it wasn't the end when people went there.

Really! So just what do you think "eternal" means in Matthew 18:8?

"And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire,"​

Or . . . .

"And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power," (2 Thess. 1:9).

"Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire," (Jude 7).

"These men are those who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted; 13 wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam; wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever," (Jude12-13).​

I believe I would accept as evidence God saying that someone is in Hell.

I believe the suffering is largely self induced.

To acknowledge that there is suffering going on in hell is to acknowledge that some is in hell.

I believe He does not.

Fine, but why then does he make them suffer?


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[Shia Islam]

Just what is accomplished by putting people in hell?
.

We all have seen what evil do people like ISIL members , the likes of Hitler etc.. can do...

Imagine if ISIL has unlimited power and if all of its members can live forever..How much evil will they do...

We see only their actions, but God sees their evil heart...

They deserve to be put in Hell.
It is justice.

 

[Skwim]

We all have seen what evil do people like ISIL members , the likes of Hitler etc.. can do...

Imagine if ISIL has unlimited power and if all of its members can live forever..How much evil will they do...

We see only their actions, but God sees their evil heart...

They deserve to be put in Hell.
It is justice.

So, you feel that making people suffer for all eternity for such things as cowardliness and unbelief is just. You do know, don't you, that most people find such revenge based torture to be abhorrent.


.


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[blue taylor]

We all have seen what evil do people like ISIL members , the likes of Hitler etc.. can do...

Imagine if ISIL has unlimited power and if all of its members can live forever..How much evil will they do...

We see only their actions, but God sees their evil heart...

They deserve to be put in Hell.
It is justice.

Daesh does what it does in the name of Allah. Without believing in the concept of heaven and hell they would not exist. They die because they think they are going to paradise. No paradise, no martyrdom. Apparently they believe only others are going to hell. The existence of heaven and hell are the inventions of people who want to exercise control over others and use religion to accomplish it. And for thousands of years they have been successful. At the cost of millions of innocent lives. The doctrine of heaven and hell, no matter what religion, has resulted in more than half the worlds population being in servitude, not to a god, but to those who claim to speak for god. Human beings, not gods wrote all of our "holy books". Hell was meant to scare ignorant people into submission. The idea of hell serves no other function.

 

[Tomorrows_Child]

It's said that hell was originally created as a place for Satan and his angels. (From what a lot of Christians have said, evidently Satan hasn't found his way there yet, as he's still leading us good humans astray.) Fine, but then god decided to use hell as a final resting place for those of us who fail to toe his line.

So what's the deal here? Was hell going to waste with no Satan to burn? Or does god simply get a kick out of making people suffer?

Just what is accomplished by putting people in hell?


.

I find this a weird question...I could easily ask, what is accomplished by putting people into prison? Or giving treats to well behaved children or being nice to someone who is nice to you but avoiding those that are not. It's pretty self explanatory and one of the easiest aspects of Christianity to understand.

 

[Rival]

I find this a weird question...I could easily ask, what is accomplished by putting people into prison? Or giving treats to well behaved children or being nice to someone who is nice to you but avoiding those that are not. It's pretty self explanatory and one of the easiest aspects of Christianity to understand.

Do people deserve to be in hell forever? For some finite crime?

 

[Skwim]

I find this a weird question...I could easily ask, what is accomplished by putting people into prison?

And if you did, I'd answer by saying it helps keep society safe from them, and sends the message that doing what they did, which sent them to prison, is not wise. .

Or giving treats to well behaved children

Typically, it tends to foster more good behavior.

or being nice to someone who is nice to you but avoiding those that are not.

Often times it functions as a "Thank You."

It's pretty self explanatory and one of the easiest aspects of Christianity to understand.

Really! So, in a nut shell, which of of my answers here, if any, is accomplished by putting people in hell to suffer?


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