Why the Hell . . . .

[بِسْم الله]

Again, the punishment our government would dole out isn't for all eternity.

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It is if it is the death penalty

 

[Astravalon]

It is if it is the death penalty

How so?


_

 

[بِسْم الله]

I exist to my child. I dont have to prove I exist to them. They would be rebelling against my instructions. Beliefs dont even come into play here. Unless you'd actually like to argue that my own children I gave birth to dont believe I exist just in order to not listen to me?

One cannot rebel against something that does not exist. Do you rebel against Zeus? Ra? Odin? Do you believe in them? Do you rebel against them?

Tell one of your children to prove to me that you gave birth to them. They can't do it. Does that make it not so. About the closest they can do is bring me a birth certificate that claims you birthed them. Like I could show you scripture.

 

[بِسْم الله]

How so?


_

Well first I would have to know if you believe in God or not to properly answer.

 

[Astravalon]

Well first I would have to know if you believe in God or not to properly answer.

I believe in God, but I'm not sure what that has to do
with the government punishing someone for all eternity.


_

 

[Astravalon]

If we weren't under law sin wouldn't exist

Reminds me of the bible verse, "Where there is no law,
there is no transgression." (Romans 4:15)


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[habiru]

Anything suggesting that one can be outside the presence of an omnipresent
entity is illogical.


-

But it does says that our reward is with Him. It is important that God remembers us, because God can blot us out of His memory at anytime. That is why the ones that He listen to like Ishmael, that He will here there pleads (prayers), that they must pray for those that are lost, the ones that God doesn't remember.

Proverbs 15:29 The Lord is far from the wicked, but he hears the prayer of the righteous.

Isaiah 1:15 When you spread out your hands in prayer, I hide my eyes from you; even when you offer many prayers, I am not listening. Your hands are full of blood!

Isaiah 38:5 “Go and tell Hezekiah, ‘This is what the Lord, the God of your father David, says: I have heard your prayer and seen your tears; I will add fifteen years to your life.

Lamentations 3:8 Even when I call out or cry for help, he shuts out my prayer.

Lamentations 3:44 You have covered yourself with a cloud so that no prayer can get through.

Daniel 9:3 So I turned to the Lord God and pleaded with him in prayer and petition, in fasting, and in sackcloth and ashes.

Revelation 22:12 “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done.

 

[بِسْم الله]

I believe in God, but I'm not sure what that has to do
with the government punishing someone for all eternity.


_

As far as any of us are concerned this life is our eternity. Its all that is tangible, so to deprive someone of it is an eternal punishment. Eternal in the sense that you cannot return from it to enjoy the state of being that your killer deprived you from. I'm also curious as to how you believe in God but disbelieve in hell if you don't mind me to ask such a personal question

 

[بِسْم الله]

Reminds me of the bible verse, "Where there is no law,
there is no transgression." (Romans 4:15)


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How is this verse to be understand when measured up to the idea that we are under grace and not law

 

[habiru]

I frequently find this statement very confusing. Ive heard people say "we are under grace not law". I then ask them if they believe in sin. Of course the answer is yes they believe in sin. So I try to highlight that sin can only exist if there is a LAW and then that law is broken. If we weren't under law sin wouldn't exist

We know what a sin is ,but we also know that we are not sinless. To be under grace is to show it as well. Like if someone is being offensive to you, that you must be merciful to them by forgiving them. And so what ever Jesus had done for us, that we must do the same for others. Like in the parable about the king that has forgiven his servant's debts; but the servant did not forgiven those that owed him. But the king heard what his servant has done, that he told his servant that he should of have forgiven those as he has forgiven his debt. And so now the king reinstated his servant's debt and had him thrown into the dungeon until he has paid back wjat he owes.

 

[Draka]

It is if it is the death penalty

Actually, the death penalty can be more likened to annihilation. It wouldn't be the equivalent of hell. Not even life without chance of parole is comparable because even if you want to compare the rest of your life to all eternity...prisoners aren't being tortured the whole time. On the contrary, they are being sheltered, fed, given medical care and even exercise and fresh air. They aren't writhing in excruciating pain like hell promises. Comparing a flawed human created justice system to your god's concept of a "just" afterlife punishment, and it is still far better than what your god came up with, just shows how incredibly flawed your god must be.

Tell one of your children to prove to me that you gave birth to them. They can't do it. Does that make it not so. About the closest they can do is bring me a birth certificate that claims you birthed them. Like I could show you scripture.

You know, the fact that I gave birth to them can be proven easily enough. Without birth certificate or anything. It's called scientific evidence. DNA testing. Parenthood can be scientifically established, proof of deity cannot. Big difference there. You can wave scripture all day, it cannot compare in validity with DNA. Sorry, comparison fail.

 

[InChrist]

My God is omnipresent. The lie is that we can be separated.

My God is omnipresent and according to His revealed word the truth is that sin brings separation...But your iniquities have separated you from your God;
And your sins have hidden His face from you, so that He will not hear. Isaiah 59:2

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

This is what happens when you don't program sense into AI

No, some people choose to do evil when they possess free will. Free will is the gift of God placing us beyond God's ability to foresee our choices. It's the only way God, and we, can know who we really are. If we know an omnipresent God exists, or have any reasonable evidence to suspect so, then we know/suspect that God is watching, and the test is negated--for us all.

So I try to highlight that sin can only exist if there is a LAW and then that law is broken. If we weren't under law sin wouldn't exist

I agree in principle, but what do you mean when you say "the LAW"? What is the LAW, and what is its source and authority?

 

[james2ko]

Ahh, right - Christian. Then if it was made for Satan why was Satan (according to Christian belief) put on Earth with us humans?

First we have to define the bible's four terms that are translated "hell". Two of them simply mean the "grave" (sheol--OT, hades--NT). One is a fiery garbage pit outside Jerusalem (gehenna). The final one (tartaroo a.k.a--abyss/deep) is a spiritual prison where satan and his demons are on "work release" (Luk 8:27-31) awaiting their judgment (2 Pe 2:4).

 

[بِسْم الله]

We know what a sin is ,but we also know that we are not sinless. To be under grace is to show it as well. Like if someone is being offensive to you, that you must be merciful to them by forgiving them. And so what ever Jesus had done for us, that we must do the same for others. Like in the parable about the king that has forgiven his servant's debts; but the servant did not forgiven those that owed him. But the king heard what his servant has done, that he told his servant that he should of have forgiven those as he has forgiven his debt. And so now the king reinstated his servant's debt and had him thrown into the dungeon until he has paid back wjat he owes.

That's a very beautiful parable but to reiterate my main point I still fail to understand how we are not under law

 

[بِسْم الله]

No, some people choose to do evil when they possess free will. Free will is the gift of God placing us beyond God's ability to foresee our choices. It's the only way God, and we, can know who we really are. If we know an omnipresent God exists, or have any reasonable evidence to suspect so, then we know/suspect that God is watching, and the test is negated--for us all.



I agree in principle, but what do you mean when you say "the LAW"? What is the LAW, and what is its source and authority?

I would say the the law giver is God and his law is well documented throughout the bible. I would say that the Ten Commandments is a pretty accurate summary of the LAW. And I am often amazed at people who discard the Old Testament on one hand but pick and choose from it as is convenient for them in that moment

 

[بِسْم الله]

Actually, the death penalty can be more likened to annihilation. It wouldn't be the equivalent of hell. Not even life without chance of parole is comparable because even if you want to compare the rest of your life to all eternity...prisoners aren't being tortured the whole time. On the contrary, they are being sheltered, fed, given medical care and even exercise and fresh air. They aren't writhing in excruciating pain like hell promises. Comparing a flawed human created justice system to your god's concept of a "just" afterlife punishment, and it is still far better than what your god came up with, just shows how incredibly flawed your god must be.

You know, the fact that I gave birth to them can be proven easily enough. Without birth certificate or anything. It's called scientific evidence. DNA testing. Parenthood can be scientifically established, proof of deity cannot. Big difference there. You can wave scripture all day, it cannot compare in validity with DNA. Sorry, comparison fail.

Okay prove it to me that you birthed your children. Bring me the evidence. All your ever going to be able to do is show me a piece of paper. A birth certificate or dna test. And I can in all plausibility accuse you of altering that paperwork. I agree with you that blood is tangible and God isn't. But then I would ask you, is being tangible a prerequisite to being real? Can you show me your intelligence, emotions, thoughts and ideas? Can you show me the wind or uv rays?

 

[بِسْم الله]

Actually, the death penalty can be more likened to annihilation. It wouldn't be the equivalent of hell. Not even life without chance of parole is comparable because even if you want to compare the rest of your life to all eternity...prisoners aren't being tortured the whole time. On the contrary, they are being sheltered, fed, given medical care and even exercise and fresh air. They aren't writhing in excruciating pain like hell promises. Comparing a flawed human created justice system to your god's concept of a "just" afterlife punishment, and it is still far better than what your god came up with, just shows how incredibly flawed your god must be.

You know, the fact that I gave birth to them can be proven easily enough. Without birth certificate or anything. It's called scientific evidence. DNA testing. Parenthood can be scientifically established, proof of deity cannot. Big difference there. You can wave scripture all day, it cannot compare in validity with DNA. Sorry, comparison fail.

Another question for you, if I created something do I not reserve the right do with it as I please? If God created you and I why should he not be able to send us to hell for eternity if he so chooses?

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

I would say the the law giver is God and his law is well documented throughout the bible. I would say that the Ten Commandments is a pretty accurate summary of the LAW. And I am often amazed at people who discard the Old Testament on one hand but pick and choose from it as is convenient for them in that moment

I discard all "divine" revelation as unverifiable hearsay. All wisdom contained in any of the various holy books is self-evident under it's own authority, as is a naturally deduced, universal morality, and the laws that justifies, which must be enforce equally for all. The source of all corruption is a legal/moral double standard.

 

[Draka]

Okay prove it to me that you birthed your children. Bring me the evidence. All your ever going to be able to do is show me a piece of paper. A birth certificate or dna test. And I can in all plausibility accuse you of altering that paperwork. I agree with you that blood is tangible and God isn't. But then I would ask you, is being tangible a prerequisite to being real? Can you show me your intelligence, emotions, thoughts and ideas? Can you show me the wind or uv rays?

See, we have this very cool thing called technology. I could prove any number of things to you should I want to. Whether through sending you a video or by streaming a video you could watch while blood was taken from me and my children and watch the process of it being tested and the subsequent results. You could see, with your own eyes, proof. Not just paper, but the step by step process, testing, and results.

My intelligence can be tested, my emotions can be analyzed, my thoughts can be expressed. You can feel the wind and see the effects of it yourself. You can go to a science class and learn how to do experiments for yourself to know all about uv rays.

None of that can be done in regards to deity.

Another question for you, if I created something do I not reserve the right do with it as I please? If God created you and I why should he not be able to send us to hell for eternity if he so chooses?

Oh, if such a creator god exists it could do such, certainly. No one is saying it couldn't. What is being said though, is such punishment makes no logical sense. Especially when trying to speak about a supposedly loving god. Such punishment indicates a cruel, sadistic, malevolent deity. A vile puppet master. One that makes no logical sense. The concept of hell is just yet another reason to reject the concept of that particular god which would have hell in the first place. Either the god does not exist or, if it does, is certainly not worthy of worship.