Crazy gun laws

[Revoltingest]

Most of the officers I brought in strongly recommended not keeping a loaded gun in the house for reasons discussed ad nauseum, but when asked about which gun would be preferable if one decided to do so, all or most of them (?) suggested a shotgun because of the issue of both accuracy and also more wide-spread coverage.

A shotgun is a good choice for many, if not most people.
But not for all.
What do they keep in their homes?
The cops I know overwhelmingly prefer a handgun.
- They're more appropriate for a rapid access safe.
- For a trained user, their ergonomics are best.

 

[esmith]

A "legal" shotgun(barrel 18 inch minimum and 26 inches minimum in total length) is an awkward weapon to yield in a confined space. However, the sound of a slide being racked is definitely an attention getter.. However, the spread pattern of 00 buckshot in a 12 gauge magnum open chock, which is the common “Combat” or “Tactical” load has a spread of anywhere between 1 3/4 to 4 inches at 12 ft (normal bedroom distance) . This kills at one end and wounds on the other. You are going to have to aim the shotgun to be effective. So again you are at a disadvantage in close quarters, or attempting to get something between you and the intruder. No thanks, my grouping with a handgun at 12ft is tight and I have better maneuverability. .

 

[Father Heathen]

Seems reasonable.

There is nothing reasonable about over-simplications, generalizations, exaggerations, straw men, and stereotypes.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

There is nothing reasonable about over-simplications, generalizations, exaggerations, straw men, and stereotypes.

I think it's a valid point that the approach in the Second Amendment is already rather extreme when considered against the range of possible approaches to guns. It's reasonable to consider someone an extremist (or "nut") if they've taken an extreme position.

 

[Revoltingest]

I think it's a valid point that the approach in the Second Amendment is already rather extreme when considered against the range of possible approaches to guns. It's reasonable to consider someone an extremist (or "nut") if they've taken an extreme position.

We like extreme amendments.
Most of the original 10 are.

 

[metis]

A "legal" shotgun(barrel 18 inch minimum and 26 inches minimum in total length) is an awkward weapon to yield in a confined space. However, the sound of a slide being racked is definitely an attention getter.. However, the spread pattern of 00 buckshot in a 12 gauge magnum open chock, which is the common “Combat” or “Tactical” load has a spread of anywhere between 1 3/4 to 4 inches at 12 ft (normal bedroom distance) . This kills at one end and wounds on the other. You are going to have to aim the shotgun to be effective. So again you are at a disadvantage in close quarters, or attempting to get something between you and the intruder. No thanks, my grouping with a handgun at 12ft is tight and I have better maneuverability. .

I understand what you are saying and can appreciate that. One of the officers said that he didn't recommend a handgun unless one was very used to using it because of its inaccuracy, especially with those whom are likely to be very nervous when seeking out the supposed intruder.

One of the things more than one officer brought up is the problem of going after a supposed intruder at night. OK, you hear a noise, now what do you do? Do you know for sure which room he's in and exactly where he's located? Do you turn on the lights? If not, do you just shoot in the dark? Basically what they all said is that it's better not to take a chance and to call 911.

 

[Revoltingest]

I understand what you are saying and can appreciate that. One of the officers said that he didn't recommend a handgun unless one was very used to using it because of its inaccuracy, especially with those whom are likely to be very nervous when seeking out the supposed intruder.

One of the things more than one officer brought up is the problem of going after a supposed intruder at night. OK, you hear a noise, now what do you do? Do you know for sure which room he's in and exactly where he's located? Do you turn on the lights? If not, do you just shoot in the dark? Basically what they all said is that it's better not to take a chance and to call 911.

911 is certainly worth calling as a first resort.
I like the lights on.
Er on the side of the most information in order to avoid a mistake.
(Not what you think, you filthy minded perv!"

 

[metis]

I think it's a valid point that the approach in the Second Amendment is already rather extreme when considered against the range of possible approaches to guns. It's reasonable to consider someone an extremist (or "nut") if they've taken an extreme position.

It would make me wonder if the founding fathers could see the guns that are for sale now, what they'd be thinking? I get the feeling maybe most of their responses would be "Are you nuts?!".

 

[metis]

911 is certainly worth calling as a first resort.
I like the lights on.
Er on the side of the most information in order to avoid a mistake.
(Not what you think, you filthy minded perv!"

Wow, who hacked into Revoltingest's account and took it over so as to say something sensible?

BTW, my wife used to like it when I was a "perv", but at my age all I have is those memories.

 

[Revoltingest]

Wow, who hacked into Revoltingest's account and took it over so as to say something sensible?

It happens mostly when you have me on <ignore>.
I save up posts you'd like til you can't see them.
Bad timing with this one!

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

We like extreme amendments.
Most of the original 10 are.

Sure... and I support some of them. For instance, I like the free speech rights enshrined by the First Amendment.

... and if someone calls me a "free speech nut" because of it, I'll embrace the label.

 

[Revoltingest]

Free speech nut!
Jury trial nut!
Equal protection nut!

 

[esmith]

I understand what you are saying and can appreciate that. One of the officers said that he didn't recommend a handgun unless one was very used to using it because of its inaccuracy, especially with those whom are likely to be very nervous when seeking out the supposed intruder.

Anyone that owns a handgun and does not practice with it is to put it very plainly.....A dumb ***. I shot expert with the 1911 service pistol in the service. About 14 years after retiring I purchased a semi-auto pistol somewhat like the 1911. I was totally embarrassed when I took the weapon to the range for the first time. I now normally try to put 80-100rounds per month through each of my weapons just to stay proficient.

One of the things more than one officer brought up is the problem of going after a supposed intruder at night. OK, you hear a noise, now what do you do? Do you know for sure which room he's in and exactly where he's located? Do you turn on the lights? If not, do you just shoot in the dark? Basically what they all said is that it's better not to take a chance and to call 911.

Do not turn on the lights in your room you will blind yourself. Either wait for him/her to come to you or if you know the general location and if you are comfortable in doing so, go after them in a stealthy manner, just don't walk around like you would in a normal situation. Yes call 911, average response time in the US is 10 min. A lot of things can happen in 10 min. Remember the police get there most of the time to write a report.. The best thing a person can do is attend training scenarios with a reputable company. The movie versions of homeowner vs intruder will get you killed.

 

[Apex]

Yep, and you can access that info on-line.

Prove it.

 

[metis]

Prove it.

If you had asked in a decent manner, I would have, but I'll be darned if I'm gonna do all the work for one who simply comes in with your aggressive attitude.

Google "international homicide statistics", if you don't know where to start.

 

[Apex]

If you had asked in a decent manner, I would have, but I'll be darned if I'm gonna do all the work for one who simply comes in with your aggressive attitude.

Google "international homicide statistics", if you don't know where to start.

Quoting statistics without a reference generally results in you looking bad.
Looking up homicide rates in the US, UK, and France (per 100k people): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
US: 3.8
UK: 1.0
FR: 1.0

So no, their rates are not "8-9 times lower" than the US.

 

[Revoltingest]

Quoting statistics without a reference generally results in you looking bad.

This is true.
77% of statistics are made up on the spot.
Another 21% aren't part of a cogent argument.
There's only the belief that the bare stats alone make an argument.
The remaining
The rest are cromulent.

 

[metis]

Quoting statistics without a reference generally results in you looking bad.
Looking up homicide rates in the US, UK, and France (per 100k people): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
US: 3.8
UK: 1.0
FR: 1.0

So no, their rates are not "8-9 times lower" than the US.

Try this:
U.S.:5.22 per 100,000
U.K.: 1.57 " "
France: 1.35 " " -- http://chartsbin.com/view/1454

Yes, my original numbers, taken from memory that I shouldn't have relied on, are incorrect. However, the main point still stands, namely, we're a lot higher. Since we have so many more guns in circulation than they, why aren't we lower?

 

[esmith]

Seems that some law enforcement officers think considerably different than some of you on here.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/201...unt-message-to-gun-owners-amid-terror-threat/

 

[Apex]

Try this:
U.S.:5.22 per 100,000
U.K.: 1.57 " "
France: 1.35 " " -- http://chartsbin.com/view/1454

Yes, my original numbers, taken from memory that I shouldn't have relied on, are incorrect. However, the main point still stands, namely, we're a lot higher. Since we have so many more guns in circulation than they, why aren't we lower?

Your source is a little out of date (2008). The ones I quoted are from 2013 (for the US anyways).

Also, how exactly are we "a lot higher"? Considering that the actual difference between our rates is only ~2.8 homicides/100k? And sorry if I seemed a little short. It is a pet peeve of mine when people on RF quote statistics with no source when one can be found within 10 seconds on google.