Atheist; wish I could believe

[George-ananda]

- am I, and the people who think like me, total loonies?

No, just at a normal stage.

- does this make any sense to any of you? I guess this one is a question especially for the atheists who may be reading

Of course it makes sense.

- any thoughts from the theist side of the barricade?

Thought you would never ask. My thought is you are thinking from the western world atheism vs. Judaism/Christianity question. You can answer 'neither of the above'. The traditional Abrahamic God concept has issues but so does atheism. What do you believe (as opposed to what don't you believe)? What kind of atheist are you? Most athheists I hear from are materialist types which fails to me from my study of what is colloquially called the 'paranormal'. Look at Near Death Experiences, Childhood reincarnation memories, spirit communication, etc..After much study I believe we live in a universe much more complex than atheist or Abrahamic worldviews acknowledge. You sound primed for eastern (or what used to be called 'new age') view of existence.

- is this all a cry from a lost soul in the liquid world described by Zygmunt Bauman?

Lost me there. Over my head.

 

[pacifica]

First, greetings!
Second, if anyone here is to be arrogant & condescending towards my faithful friends, that is my job. Usurp at your peril!
Third, have some....

Like, is there a mean atheist clique over here? Am I still eligible despite my soft spot for organized Abrahamic religion?

And is that an invitation to partake in some delicious-looking souvlaki? I am of the vegetarian persuasion but thanks from the bottom of my heart! And now I'm hungry.

 

[Tumah]

Maybe there exists some type of non-religious community that has secular rituals that you would find meaningful, that you could join?

 

[pacifica]

Thank you all for your replies and thoughts and keep them coming!

You might try looking into Buddhism, Buddhism is a religion with ethics, morality, 5 commandments or precepts quite similar to ones proscribed by Jesus, but the emphasis is on bettering yourself, and learning to show love and compassion for all your fellow beings, animals included.

Funny that you mention Buddhism, because I've been dipping my toes into that particular pool since I was in high school. I think the tenets are fascinating and truly liberating, and they've brought me lots of insight during some troubling times. The everyday philosophy you can get from it is priceless (mileages may vary). And yet I have never felt like I could become a true follower of Buddhism, or at least of the Buddhism(s) I have encountered until now. My problem is that I'm both an atheist and an empirist. Not to get into the debate between 'secular Buddhists' and the diverse rest of the congregation, but it feels pretty dishonest to me to agree with the teachings on a superficial level, without being able to truly embrace the metaphysical and super-natural parts and concepts of the religion. For example a friend introduced me to Sokka Gakkai a couple of years ago and I just couldn't believe that chanting 'nam myoho renge kyo' could affect my life in any way. I wouldn't want to pick and choose what 'kind of fits' with my Western mindset and ignore the rest, or twist it into compliance with my prior ideas, while still calling myself Buddhist. That being said I understand it is a complicated matter and it's not just about Western whitewashed practice vs some kind of 'Original Asian Buddhism™" but a way more nuanced and diverse debate.

As an atheist, I often struggle with the problem of evil. Whilst obviously there is no god, that doesn't mean we can't have an emotional response to all the problems in the world. a belief in god feels safer and more reassuring, expecially if their omnibenevolent (rather than a wrath and fear kind of deity). religious belief- with or without a diety- also entails a belief in an ordered universe and so that can make us feel safer too. religion provides a sense of belongning both to a community and a higher power than allows us to feel that we transcend our own and others suffering. I favour belief in humanity as an alternative to belief in god, but its not unconditional. we are a strange species and visit a great amount of cruelty on one another and that can be hard to stomach. but whilst our failings are real, so are the people so I know it matters we get something right.

Thank you for this, you definitely nailed a large part of what I feel and why I do.

profoundly atheist?......testing the waters here?

You are a bit on the young side to be sure of anything.

Have you considered science as a means of redirection?

Care to elaborate a bit?



Also,

Thanks, but I can't accept those bonus points as they are a mode of human approval facilitated only by the self-affirming, relationship-distorting means of communication filtered by the collective capital will via the consumer products we use to do it, or the spectacle.

I have such a crush on Debord. Be still my heart! Cheers

 

[pacifica]

Maybe there exists some type of non-religious community that has secular rituals that you would find meaningful, that you could join?

It is not just about community, or ritual. It really is about God first and foremost.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I don't think you can strictly MAKE yourself believe something; you either accept it as true or you don't. Wanting the feeling that may come from belief is an entirely different thing from actually believing it, and you can't force yourself to accept a claim just so you can have a feeling you think it may bring. It's kind of like trying to force yourself to become rich because you want the feeling that may come from being rich - no matter how hard you try, if you don't have the money then you simply don't have the money, and if you are unconvinced of the truth of God you can't somehow "force yourself" to become convinced.

I would recommend simply asking yourself what you genuinely believe. If you come to the conclusion that there is a God, go and try and find an idea of God that makes you happy. If you remain an atheist, then try and find another way to obtain that similar happiness (because trust me, you can).

As for the quote from the movie... Well, to be honest, I think such questions are stupid. Basically, as soon as you start a question with "What if...?" it becomes purely hypothetical until you can actually demonstrate that what follows is actually true. It's all well and good asking "What if belief in God is the best thing ever?", but it's just as valid as asking "What if dipping your genitals in hot lava is the best thing ever?" or "What if winning the lottery and spending all the money on flip flops is the best thing ever?" The point is that you should never assume anything until you have a good reason to assume it, and you can't force yourself to accept something as true which you don't feel you have good personal reasons to accept as being true. Just ask yourself what you currently think is true and go from there.

 

[bud123]

completely get it. Was very similarly like you in school. There is an emptiness, loneliness and sometimes lack of love and affection within you (IMO) that just sits there. You have the deeper need to fill yourself with something other than food for your stomach. Your not crazy. I found peace and fullness by reconnecting with my Christian faith. If you are searching, I suggest considering having a look into the orthodox church, there should be some English speaking ones around . I suggest this church denomination because you said that you liked the act of elevating every day to the divine through rites, and coming together with other people, sharing a community. The orthodox does this all the time, as it acts as the very structure for services. There is also an orthodox monk who use to be atheist and his name is Father Lazarus el Anthony. He appeared on the show Extreme pilgrimage. If interested grab a look. Best wishes on your quest.

 

[Thief]

Care to elaborate a bit?

Got the usual influence when I was younger....catholic schools and other religious occasions.
Put in a bid for the priesthood....

Just as well it all went behind me.
I kept reading the scriptures.
and my interest in science is a bit more keen than most.

coupled together I retained my belief in God
and simply dropped the dogma.

Looking about with the notion....a creation is a reflection of it's Creator....
I find science a more satisfying approach to God.

He is much more a Chemist....than a Monarch.
not that pulling the crown of His Head is a good idea.
As Creator....He would be a Power to reckon with.
(not against)

 

[leibowde84]

I think, Atheism and Theism aside, It seems completely human to me. We're social creatures.

And I think you've grown as a person but I also think you haven't grown as much as you think you have. Just from what you've written I got a massive condescending vibe, essentially it felt like you were saying that you wish you were an idiot like all those Theists but you're just to damn smart.

If I could recommend anything, to help you spiritually or just generally, it would be to work on your humility.
It might be able to help you see a little bit better.

Just out of curiosity, why didn't you defend the reasonableness of theism rather than making accusations about the poster? I mean, I understand where you are coming from, but it only makes the theistic argument appear flawed when you make a claim personal rather than attacking the claim itself.

 

[dust1n]

I have such a crush on Debord. Be still my heart! Cheers

What are you doing up there, Guy?

Oh wait, no, that's Harold Lloyd.

 

[Thana]

Just out of curiosity, why didn't you defend the reasonableness of theism rather than making accusations about the poster? I mean, I understand where you are coming from, but it only makes the theistic argument appear flawed when you make a claim personal rather than attacking the claim itself.

I didn't accuse the poster of anything, I just told her how she came off to me and what I thought could help her.
And I think a little humility would go a long way in to contemplating the value and/or truth of Theism.

Besides, on this site I've learned the futility of aruging for or against Theism. It's not the concepts that are the problem but the perspective of the people who believe in them, imo.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I didn't accuse the poster of anything, I just told her how she came off to me and what I thought could help her.

Yes you did - you accused them of lacking humility.

And I think a little humility would go a long way in to contemplating the value and/or truth of Theism.

Perhaps a little humility from you might go a long way too.

 

[Thana]

Yes you did - you accused them of lacking humility.

I said and I quote - "If I could recommend anything, to help you spiritually or just generally, it would be to work on your humility."

That's not an accusation, It's a suggestion. And it's not like anyone can be a master at humility, It's something that will always need work. But people prioritize different things, And I thought I'd recommend prioritizing humility.

Perhaps a little humility from you might go a long way too.

I think a little humility for everyone would go a long way in improving one's clarity.

 

[rusra02]

I enjoyed reading your post and could not help thinking about Jesus words; “Happy are those conscious of their spiritual need." I believe that all of us have an inborn need to "seek God, if [we] might grope for him and really find him, although, in fact, he is not far off from each one of us." Antony Flew, a famous atheist, in his later years changed his mind and expressed his belief in God. What convinced him? Partly, it was his study of DNA. More scientists who are exploring the wonders of the human cell are becoming convinced that such a marvel could not happen without a Designer. It seems logical to me that someone who took such care to design DNA would be worth knowing about. And the Bible assures us that the true God wants us to know him as he really is, not as so many religions falsely claim he is.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I said and I quote - "If I could recommend anything, to help you spiritually or just generally, it would be to work on your humility."

Thus implying that they lack humility.

That's not an accusation, It's a suggestion.

Sure, and saying "If I were you, I'd try be less dumb" is also a suggestion, not a veiled insult.

And it's not like anyone can be a master at humility, It's something that will always need work. But people prioritize different things, And I thought I'd recommend prioritizing humility.

You weren't suggesting they "prioritize" it, you were suggesting they "work on it", coupled with all the things you said in the first paragraph, you were clearly implying they were somehow behaving in an arrogant manner and lacking humility. You were very condescending.

I think a little humility for everyone would go a long way in improving one's clarity.

Including you, of course, as evidenced by your condescending comments.

 

[Koldo]

Hello! First post here. I am a woman, early twenties, atheist. It's been some time now, a couple of years maybe, that I've found myself in a weird situation that looks like it's shared by a number of people.

I was raised culturally Catholic by a vaguely observant mother and a non-observant, completely disinterested
father. I remember being bored and skeptic during religion class in elementary school already (also cracking
blasphemous jokes about The Jesus, which landed me in trouble in various occasions) and when I was about 11 I just declared I didn't believe in any of that stuff and that I was an atheist. My parents basically shrugged. I spent the following few years being the obnoxious atheist kid trying to 'convert' people to the brave new godless world I had discovered for myself. When I got to about 17 I had gotten all of the militant attitude out of my system and I just kept quiet about my lack of belief. It also became dramatically easier when everybody around me declared their atheism too. I'm not lying when I say that about eighty percent of people in my social circles are atheists or pretty hard agnostics (although ours is a historically deeply Catholic European country).

I've always been deeply interested about religion. At first in a combative, know-your-enemy way when I was twelve or thirteen, and later on from philosophical, historical, anthropological standpoints. It's been a couple of years now that I've found myself living the reluctant atheist paradox.

I believe that atheism has been wildly over-rated, as far as human happiness goes. I would gladly swap my sadly unwavering belief in science and rationality and Russell's teapot for the warm comfort of believing in some kind of higher power permeating all matter visible and invisible. I wish there was a Creator, and that I could believe in it, and pay tribute to it; but what I feel is also not about a personal God per se, if that makes any sense. I could be content, I think, even believing in a Spinozian God, the pantheist type. I feel actual longing for the ritualistic aspect of religion, the act of elevating every day to the divine through rites, and coming together with other people, sharing a community, a deeply felt idea, instead of just counting 'paper-thin' days down till the end, as a lone atom without any bonds to a higher, older, holier kind of community that predates my birth and will exist after me. I guess it's not even about the afterlife. I'm not afraid of death, the nothingness (although I do feel a bitter pang when I consider the annihilation without chance of return or reunion of everyone I love). I guess I just dearly wish there was more to this physical realm: sense, truth, some kind of reason for it all, or purpose, something under, between, the matter, a coherent principle; that I could believe in the existance of this principle, and that I could truthfully and joyfully pay my tributes to it.

There is also another level to my longing, in the sense that religion is just so damn fascinating and bizarre and beautiful. I can't help but be fascinated by the religious (and observant) mindset and envious, in some ways, of the richness, depths and beauty of its best manifestations (although that doesn't stop me from being annoyed and horrified by the horrors and backwardness inflicted on the rest of humankind by the fundamentalists).

The funny thing is that I think the turning point for me was watching a pretty popular movie, The Believer, the one with Ryan Gosling as a Nazi self-hating Jew. There's that part towards the end where Gosling's girlfriend, who is like the daughter of bonafide fascists, and who is sliding into Judaism for no logical reason other than an unexplicable urge, says something like 'What if surrendering to God is the best feeling we could ever have'. What if it is?

Every time I pass in front of the local synagogue [to be clear: there is no link between the movie's subject and my interest in Judaism] I get this nonsensical desire to just go inside and try with all my might to believe, to feel it, to lose myself into it. Or just go to a service and bask in the atmosphere. And then I remember I am an atheist, and feel like a weirdo and a fraud.

I am aware this is completely bizarre but some long Google searches have told me it's not really unheard of, so... I guess the questions are:

- am I, and the people who think like me, total loonies?
- does this make any sense to any of you? I guess this one is a question especially for the atheists who may be reading
- any thoughts from the theist side of the barricade?
- is this all a cry from a lost soul in the liquid world described by Zygmunt Bauman?

I comprehend where you are coming from. On that note, I miss the Easter Bunny hiding the eggs and Santa Claus giving me gifts on 25th december.

 

[Thana]

Thus implying that they lack humility.


Sure, and saying "If I were you, I'd try be less dumb" is also a suggestion, not a veiled insult.


You weren't suggesting they "prioritize" it, you were suggesting they "work on it", coupled with all the things you said in the first paragraph, you were clearly implying they were somehow behaving in an arrogant manner and lacking humility. You were very condescending.


Including you, of course, as evidenced by your condescending comments.

I guess I could have phrased it better....

What I meant was that focusing on looking outside one's self would be beneficial, spiritually and in general. (ie- humility) It's not an attack or an accusation or an insult.

Kind of feels like you want me to be the bad guy for some reason?

 

[George-ananda]

Thank you all for your replies and thoughts and keep them coming!

I have come to theism (actually pantheism) through a different route than most. To start with the question 'Does God (of Abrahamic religions) exist?' will just leave me guessing for a lifetime. I began with taking the simple materialistic view as the default. I started with actual evidence from the real world around us and became very interested in all things colloquially called paranormal. My study convinced beyond reasonable doubt that we live in a universe mind-bogglingly more complex than I can get my head around. I looked into those who claimed some insight into what this 'more' is and that led me to Theosophy and then the wisdom tradition I believe best understands the nature of reality (eastern/Indian). So. I guess my point is I never would have gotten anywhere from my own rumination on the 'Does God exist?' question.

As an atheist, do you hold what I call the 'materialist' worldview (that everything is physical matter and energy) leaving no place for consciousness after death?

 

[pacifica]

As an atheist, do you hold what I call the 'materialist' worldview (that everything is physical matter and energy) leaving no place for consciousness after death?

I do. However in recent months I've accidentally stumbled upon a para-normal experience that has really intrigued and puzzled me and kind of opened me to the idea that maybe, just maybe, there is something more complex going on. To be honest I think that a deep enquire into this kind of experiences would be the only way for me to go honestly past the materialistic mindset. As you said, the 'Does God exist?' rumination is noble but insoluble.

 

[thau]

Hello! First post here. I am a woman, early twenties, atheist. It's been some time now, a couple of years maybe, that I've found myself in a weird situation that looks like it's shared by a number of people.

I was raised culturally Catholic by a vaguely observant mother and a non-observant, completely disinterested
father. I remember being bored and skeptic during religion class in elementary school already (also cracking
blasphemous jokes about The Jesus, which landed me in trouble in various occasions) and when I was about 11 I just declared I didn't believe in any of that stuff and that I was an atheist. My parents basically shrugged. I spent the following few years being the obnoxious atheist kid trying to 'convert' people to the brave new godless world I had discovered for myself. When I got to about 17 I had gotten all of the militant attitude out of my system and I just kept quiet about my lack of belief. It also became dramatically easier when everybody around me declared their atheism too. I'm not lying when I say that about eighty percent of people in my social circles are atheists or pretty hard agnostics (although ours is a historically deeply Catholic European country).

I've always been deeply interested about religion. At first in a combative, know-your-enemy way when I was twelve or thirteen, and later on from philosophical, historical, anthropological standpoints. It's been a couple of years now that I've found myself living the reluctant atheist paradox.

I believe that atheism has been wildly over-rated, as far as human happiness goes. I would gladly swap my sadly unwavering belief in science and rationality and Russell's teapot for the warm comfort of believing in some kind of higher power permeating all matter visible and invisible. I wish there was a Creator, and that I could believe in it, and pay tribute to it; but what I feel is also not about a personal God per se, if that makes any sense. I could be content, I think, even believing in a Spinozian God, the pantheist type. I feel actual longing for the ritualistic aspect of religion, the act of elevating every day to the divine through rites, and coming together with other people, sharing a community, a deeply felt idea, instead of just counting 'paper-thin' days down till the end, as a lone atom without any bonds to a higher, older, holier kind of community that predates my birth and will exist after me. I guess it's not even about the afterlife. I'm not afraid of death, the nothingness (although I do feel a bitter pang when I consider the annihilation without chance of return or reunion of everyone I love). I guess I just dearly wish there was more to this physical realm: sense, truth, some kind of reason for it all, or purpose, something under, between, the matter, a coherent principle; that I could believe in the existance of this principle, and that I could truthfully and joyfully pay my tributes to it.

There is also another level to my longing, in the sense that religion is just so damn fascinating and bizarre and beautiful. I can't help but be fascinated by the religious (and observant) mindset and envious, in some ways, of the richness, depths and beauty of its best manifestations (although that doesn't stop me from being annoyed and horrified by the horrors and backwardness inflicted on the rest of humankind by the fundamentalists).

The funny thing is that I think the turning point for me was watching a pretty popular movie, The Believer, the one with Ryan Gosling as a Nazi self-hating Jew. There's that part towards the end where Gosling's girlfriend, who is like the daughter of bonafide fascists, and who is sliding into Judaism for no logical reason other than an unexplicable urge, says something like 'What if surrendering to God is the best feeling we could ever have'. What if it is?

Every time I pass in front of the local synagogue [to be clear: there is no link between the movie's subject and my interest in Judaism] I get this nonsensical desire to just go inside and try with all my might to believe, to feel it, to lose myself into it. Or just go to a service and bask in the atmosphere. And then I remember I am an atheist, and feel like a weirdo and a fraud.

I am aware this is completely bizarre but some long Google searches have told me it's not really unheard of, so... I guess the questions are:

- am I, and the people who think like me, total loonies?
- does this make any sense to any of you? I guess this one is a question especially for the atheists who may be reading
- any thoughts from the theist side of the barricade?
- is this all a cry from a lost soul in the liquid world described by Zygmunt Bauman?

First of all, being a rebellious teenager and challenging or mocking the establishment is hardly uncommon. Everyone wishes to draw attention to themselves and the girls love the rebel. So standing up to God, and the adults who insist upon it, has its benefits. Although I doubt any 16 year old could make a cogent argument that could stand the test of a calm voice from the other side.

The question I often have for an atheist who says there is no evidence for God is “What would it take for you to concede evidence for the supernatural?” I find a number of instances where empirical evidence is presented, which at a minimum has neither a logical nor a probable natural explanation, and it all to often is dismissed or dismissed with “we just have not uncovered the answers to everything yet.”

Well, maybe. But if God were real and he did create some marvel to reassure us, I doubt they will ever find that reason that statue of Mary weeps tears of blood.

As it is, I appreciate your honesty and sincerity.