• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Christians Only: I Am Getting Rather Frustrated With Some of My Fellow Christians

JFish123

Active Member
So you believe the Supreme Court should ban divorce? Surprising there wasn't the same level of outcry of immorality when that became allowed by law!

Out of curiosity, has anyone in your church ever performed a marriage ceremony for a couple where either of them were divorced? Now, be honest. ;) Do you go up to those who are married after a prior divorce and admonish them to leave their spouses because they are committing adultery? I see no reason why such judgments be so selective against homosexuals when all the rest is conveniently swept under the rug, since they are "hetrosexuals". Maybe it's just selective Grace to whom we deem "okay", who are close enough to ourselves to extend grace to, but denied from everyone else we are uncomfortable with, such as homosexuals? Yes, I think that's it. It think it's about themselves, not God.

As far as the above passage, bear in mind Jesus always spoke to the conventions of his day and would cite references they were familiar with to make his point. His point was about commitment and relationship, not a formula for marriage between opposite genders. I for one do not believe Jesus understood these in the same legalistic manner they did, but rather cited what he did to demonstrate their hypocrisy as religious elites who sat in judgment of others. I believe Jesus would be appalled by the religious attitudes of many Christians citing his words as weapons against others, who look an awful lot like the Pharisees in the Gospel of Matthew. I think his words are better served to decry the religious from their assumed seats of judgments over others, and to extend healing to the rest who desire and deserve Grace through humbleness.
Divorce is wrong :) and suggesting that gay marriage is ok because divorce is legal is ridiculous as BOTH are wrong to God. So bad analogy.
And No, Jesus would not approve of same sex marriage. He taught about marriage being between a man and a woman, never anything else. You just can't read into his words a pro-homosexual interpretation. Homosexuality was known to him, particularly since it's clearly condemned in the Old Testament (Leviticus 18:22; 20:13).
Notice that in Matthew 19:4-6 Jesus cites the created order of Adam and Eve, male and female, which was referenced in Genesis 1:27 and Genesis 2:24. He then says "what therefore God has joined together, let no man separate." He was speaking about marriage, and very clearly his belief was that it was to be between a man and a woman.
When people try and make Jesus support homosexuality, they are advocating liberal ideology and forcing it into Scripture in order to suit their agenda. All kinds of people want Jesus to approve of their sin, and they very often twist Scripture to accomplish it.
It is not always accepted, especially among liberal commentators, that according to Scripture Jesus is God in flesh (John 1:1, 14; Colossians 2:9) and that he is also the creator.
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being."
"For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him," (Colossians 1:16).
This is significant since it means he was involved in creating man and woman, not man and man, not woman and woman. God instituted marriage in the garden, and it was not until after sin entered the world that homosexuality became a reality. Jesus appealed to the created order in Matthew 19:4-6. Therefore, Jesus would never approve of homosexuality and same sex marriages.
 

Yoshua

Well-Known Member
Hello. My apologies, I had missed this response from you before and only caught it now in reviewing the thread again. I'll attempt to answer you.

As far as contemplative, or meditative practices, there are many ways to do this, different techniques, practices, etc, but they lead to that same place of still awareness of communion of Spirit, and so forth. Common practices involve focus on breathing, a "prayer word" as a touchstone to bring the mind back, etc. Father Thomas Keating teaches a method called Centering Prayer, which really involves this prayer word. Another good book to look at is Into the Silent Land, by Martin Laird where he goes into this.

As far as "emptying your minds", that is a bit of a misnomer It is not a matter of going "blank". Not at all in fact. You never blank out, leave home, jump ship, etc. :) What happens is you still the mind in all its running texts and scripts, its endless chattering about this thought or that thought, engaging in the stream of internal dialogs over and over and over. When one first begins contemplative practices like this, they are immediately struck by just how noisy it is in there! We just become accustomed to it, and it's like this white noise of a constantly churning engine we learn to filter out of our immediate awareness. When you first go within this way, you actually see the mind doing all of that, and it becomes quite the eye-opener, to say the least!

What a contemplative practice does is it allows you to understand and ultimately temper the way the mind is constantly injecting itself into every experience of life we have. We come to understand we live in a "mental reality" this way, and through this become out of touch with that eternal moment that is ever before us. In stilling the mind, it opens awareness. And that awareness, undistracted by the rock concerts of our minds, can hear, see, feel, touch, sense, and taste the ever-present Spirit in all moments. That experience, informs us of our own hearts, of our own minds, of our own thoughts, and allows us to see others through the eyes of that ever-present Spirit. We see others as God sees them, in a word. We experience Grace in the moment, and so forth.

Hi Windwalker,

As I know, the contemplative was influenced by Zen, Hindu, Yoga and blended with Eastern Mysticism for Centering Prayer?

Yes, but what we see in scriptures and why we quote them, is reflective of our own minds and hearts. Two people can read the same passages, and one can see a call to peace, while the other sees a call to war. If we are unaware of our own minds and hearts, we assume what see and read reflects the reality of the thing outside of ourselves. That just simply isn't true.

Then there is a solution in that case, Scripture study have a basis or standard. We may determine who is right and who is false.

Christianity is about freedom, not enslavement to religion, not an enslavement to the ideas of others citing scriptures to support their points of view as though it is God demanding this of them. This defines what Christianity should be: "Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty". We are a diverse world. Do not mistake uniformity of views, with Unity of Spirit. Christianity is about Unity of the Heart, not uniformity of beliefs.

Yes, Christianity is not legalism like the Pharisees. The freedom that we have is the freedom of the grace of God. We have the freedom to breath, to worship God, to speak and to share. But that liberty is not the liberty that steps outside the boundary of righteousness. What I mean is: if there is freedom or liberty; then there are limits. I believed that limits or prohibition should be strictly followed. If the Bible says “Set your mind in Christ” and renew our mind, we follow. We should not exceed on what the Scripture says as turning into unbiblical practices.

Thanks
 

Yoshua

Well-Known Member
What is more reliable? Quiet communication directly with God, Or reading what someone else wrote in the scriptures and interpreting it to fit your own situation.
Scripture is definitely useful, and perhaps the only way to find out what the early generations of Christians thought and believed. However it will always be limited by men's ability to communicate their thoughts, and their ability to recall, agree and write down what they have heard and been told.
There is no reason to believe their words were any better or "True" than we receive today. There never was a cut off day when God stopped answering or leading us.

If our communication through prayer with God is unreliable or false, why pray at all?

Hi Terry,

Well, I believe the best is to communicate with God. Interpreting with your own situation is dependent on how valid your interpretation was. If there are basis that it is a false practices and passed the test with the Scriptures, then that’s not interpreting to fit your own situation.

Thanks
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Hi Windwalker,

As I know, the contemplative was influenced by Zen, Hindu, Yoga and blended with Eastern Mysticism for Centering Prayer?
Not really. Contemplative practice has been part of the very early church from long before the modern age and exposures to Eastern practices. It has a long history of tradition. From here:

Contemplative prayer is by no means a modern addition to Christianity. Contemplative Christian prayer has representatives in every age. A form of contemplative prayer was first practiced and taught by the Desert Fathers of Egypt, Palestine and Syria including Evagrius, St. Augustine and St. Gregory the Great in the West, and Pseudo-Dionysius and the Hesychasts in the East.

In the Middle Ages, St. Bernard of Clarivaux, William of St. Thierry and Guigo the Carthusian represent the Christian contemplative tradition, as well as the Rhineland mystics, including St. Hildegard, St. Mechtilde, Meister Eckhart, Ruysbroek and Tauler. Later, the author of The Imitation of Christ and the English mystics of the 14th century such as the author of The Cloud of Unknowing, Walter Hilton, Richard Rolle, and Julian of Norwich became part of the Christian contemplative heritage.

After the Reformation, the Carmelites of St. Teresa of Avila, St. John of the Cross and St. Therese of Lisieux; the French school of spiritual writers, including St. Francis de Sales, St. Jane de Chantal and Cardinal Berulle; the Jesuits, including fathers De Caussade, Lallemont and Surin; the Benedictines, like Dom Augustine Baker and Dom John Chapman, and modern Cistercians such as Dom Vital Lehodey and Thomas Merton, all cultivated practices in their lives that they believed led to the spiritual gift of contemplation.​

That we find such practices also exist in the East speaks to the nature of the human being itself in relation to the divine. I for one do not begin with the idea that if someone else has discovered the same practices in other parts of the world and other religions, that that means your practice is "of the devil" or some such fear reaction. If that was so, you should get rid of you own sacred scriptures because other religions have them too! :) This of course makes no sense. That you find similar practices and approaches in religions the world over speaks to the heart of the human being in relation to finding Ultimate Peace, in whatever ways we all have available to us.

In any religious path, and particularly in Christianity, a practice of contemplation is the greatest patch to finding that along its own traditional trajectory. As Archbishop Rowan Williams said in that article linked to in an earlier post,

Contemplating God in Jesus, he declared, teaches Christians “how to look at one another and at the whole of God’s creation.”

Archbishop Williams described contemplation as “the key” to prayer, liturgy, art, ethics, and “the essence of a renewed humanity” that is free from “self-oriented, acquisitive habits” and their distortions.

“To put it boldly, contemplation is the only ultimate answer to the unreal and insane world that our financial systems and our advertising culture and our chaotic and unexamined emotions encourage us to inhabit,” the Anglican archbishop said.​

This then comes into my response about how one reads and understands scriptures is influenced by either how clear or how clouded our active minds are. As you see above he points how it teaches one, "how to look at one another and at the whole of God's creation.". People look at one another all the time. But what are they seeing, and does that change when our own hearts and minds are changed, when they become open and clear to Spirit? Of course, yes! So when you "study scripture", with whose set of eyes are you seeing it? If you practice contemplation, it will enormously affect how you see, what you hear, and how you respond. If you're only looking out of your 'clouded' mind, trying to see what you can, you are seeing, "through a glass darkly", and do not truly see what is before you.

Then there is a solution in that case, Scripture study have a basis or standard. We may determine who is right and who is false.
As I just pointed out above, what we are able or unable to see in what we look at right before us is determined by the set of eyes that are looking. People whose minds are darkened can study scripture all day long and what they will see amounts to nothing but a reflection of their own minds. And that is a fact. It is true of anyone. It is not just a matter of reading with your eyes, or developing good study skills. No amount of head knowledge will ever allow to be seen what is a matter of the eyes of the heart to see. If you do not develop the heart, you will never see anything but what the unillumined mind can present. It takes both to be developed. Without contemplation, you are relying on the head, and what it sees will only always reflect how it see, reflecting the one seeing, in all their biases, fears, anxieties, etc.

Don't forget Jesus told the religious of his day to study scripture because it spoke of him. They studied, but still could not see. So what he meant was basically to have an opened mind through the illumination of Spirit, through the heart, in order to see what is right before them that they are unable to see currently in all their religiousness. The first commandment is to love God, not to go read the Bible. Love is an action of the heart. Contemplation is the key to this, without which, you see only what your own biases from the mind allow to be seen. Same story throughout all ages.

Yes, Christianity is not legalism like the Pharisees.
It depends on how it's practiced, doesn't it? I've seen more than a lion's share of Christian churches that are in fact exactly like the Pharisees as portrayed in the Gospel of Matthew. It's not hard to imagine Jesus stand before these religious who identify by his name and saying precisely the same things to them he did to the Pharisees of his day. They created a stumbling block for people to come to God in their self-righteousness, substituting correct beliefs and doctrines over hearing, seeing, knowing, and loving with the eyes of the heart. "By their fruits you shall know them", not by their religiousness.

The freedom that we have is the freedom of the grace of God. We have the freedom to breath, to worship God, to speak and to share. But that liberty is not the liberty that steps outside the boundary of righteousness.
That freedom produces righteousness from within. It is not expressed by conformity to the rules set forth by others to follow. It is instead a living law, being written moment to moment upon the heart that knows God, with the heart, with Spirit. The mind without that, is an empty shell.

What I mean is: if there is freedom or liberty; then there are limits. I believed that limits or prohibition should be strictly followed. If the Bible says “Set your mind in Christ” and renew our mind, we follow. We should not exceed on what the Scripture says as turning into unbiblical practices.
Who was scripture written by, but those with a heart that knew God? It's not a book chiseled in stone, but being written on the tablets of each and every heart that knows God, moment to moment. It is not an external code you conform to, but an internal Life you live and create.
 
Last edited:

MormonChainMonteCarlo

The LDS Paleontologist/Economist
I've always found it interesting that many are willing to use the first chapter of Romans to condemn homosexual behavior, but seemingly ignore the very next verse found in the Romans 2:1 (KJV),

1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
Sometimes I believe our chapter and verse structure jilts the message and ruins the original flow of the message. Paul certainly didn't write in chapters. If I received a letter that started with "Chapter 1," I would've just thrown it away in frustration :tearsofjoy:
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Ie demonic.

You appear to have a biblical counterpart speaking the same things:

But when the Pharisees heard about the miracle, they said, “No wonder he can cast out demons. He gets his power from Satan, the prince of demons.”

Jesus knew their thoughts and replied, “Any kingdom divided by civil war is doomed. A town or family splintered by feuding will fall apart. And if Satan is casting out Satan, he is divided and fighting against himself. His own kingdom will not survive. And if I am empowered by Satan, what about your own exorcists? They cast out demons, too, so they will condemn you for what you have said. But if I am casting out demons by the Spirit of God, then the Kingdom of God has arrived among you.​

~Mt 12:24-28​

Let's examine this business of saying contemplation is demonic.


By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.

A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.

...by their fruit you will recognize them.

~Mt. 7

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.


~Ga. 5:22-23​

The practice produces all of these, far beyond anything that simply studying and believing does for someone. You may wish to practice this yourself and let your own experience inform you. It produces the good fruit, from a good tree. Not thorns and thistles. A house divided cannot stand. If it is demonic, then it is casting out devils by the devil.
 

ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
I am a Christian. I follow Jesus/Yeshua's commands as best I can. If I owned a business, I would hire people outside of my faith and outside of my sexual preference and I don't think I am a "sinner" if I would do that.

If you read the Christian scriptures, you will note that even Yeshua Himself was called a "sinner" by the religious leaders of His time. Yeshua spent all of His time teaching those who were called "sinners", as well. He didn't scream at them, he didn't attack them, he was loving towards them. Yeshua even taught Samaritans (You have to do a study of Samaritans to find out who they were, I know and I've studied it but I don't have the time or space to write it in this response). He was kind to a Samaritan woman. The religious leaders of Yeshua's time frowned upon what Yeshua did. I believe that Yeshua would have taught the religious leaders if they would have let Him do so. (Some listened to Him when He was 12, according to Luke).
So, I repeat, whether you believe that gay marriage and sodomy is a sin or not, that is not the question. It's being loving towards people that Jesus taught.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
So, I repeat, whether you believe that gay marriage and sodomy is a sin or not, that is not the question. It's being loving towards people that Jesus taught.
This, Christine, is what I just don't think many Christians get. I can't count how many times I've heard people accuse me of being "pro-gay." I'm neither "pro-gay" nor "anti-gay." My personal feelings towards gay sex are entirely beside the point, and this just goes right over their heads. It's frustrating as hell.
 

Yoshua

Well-Known Member
Not really. Contemplative practice has been part of the very early church from long before the modern age and exposures to Eastern practices. It has a long history of tradition. From here:

Contemplative prayer is by no means a modern addition to Christianity. Contemplative Christian prayer has representatives in every age. A form of contemplative prayer was first practiced and taught by the Desert Fathers of Egypt, Palestine and Syria including Evagrius, St. Augustine and St. Gregory the Great in the West, and Pseudo-Dionysius and the Hesychasts in the East.

In the Middle Ages, St. Bernard of Clarivaux, William of St. Thierry and Guigo the Carthusian represent the Christian contemplative tradition, as well as the Rhineland mystics, including St. Hildegard, St. Mechtilde, Meister Eckhart, Ruysbroek and Tauler. Later, the author of The Imitation of Christ and the English mystics of the 14th century such as the author of The Cloud of Unknowing, Walter Hilton, Richard Rolle, and Julian of Norwich became part of the Christian contemplative heritage.

After the Reformation, the Carmelites of St. Teresa of Avila, St. John of the Cross and St. Therese of Lisieux; the French school of spiritual writers, including St. Francis de Sales, St. Jane de Chantal and Cardinal Berulle; the Jesuits, including fathers De Caussade, Lallemont and Surin; the Benedictines, like Dom Augustine Baker and Dom John Chapman, and modern Cistercians such as Dom Vital Lehodey and Thomas Merton, all cultivated practices in their lives that they believed led to the spiritual gift of contemplation.​

That we find such practices also exist in the East speaks to the nature of the human being itself in relation to the divine. I for one do not begin with the idea that if someone else has discovered the same practices in other parts of the world and other religions, that that means your practice is "of the devil" or some such fear reaction. If that was so, you should get rid of you own sacred scriptures because other religions have them too! :) This of course makes no sense. That you find similar practices and approaches in religions the world over speaks to the heart of the human being in relation to finding Ultimate Peace, in whatever ways we all have available to us.

In any religious path, and particularly in Christianity, a practice of contemplation is the greatest patch to finding that along its own traditional trajectory. As Archbishop Rowan Williams said in that article linked to in an earlier post,

Contemplating God in Jesus, he declared, teaches Christians “how to look at one another and at the whole of God’s creation.”

Archbishop Williams described contemplation as “the key” to prayer, liturgy, art, ethics, and “the essence of a renewed humanity” that is free from “self-oriented, acquisitive habits” and their distortions.

“To put it boldly, contemplation is the only ultimate answer to the unreal and insane world that our financial systems and our advertising culture and our chaotic and unexamined emotions encourage us to inhabit,” the Anglican archbishop said.​

This then comes into my response about how one reads and understands scriptures is influenced by either how clear or how clouded our active minds are. As you see above he points how it teaches one, "how to look at one another and at the whole of God's creation.". People look at one another all the time. But what are they seeing, and does that change when our own hearts and minds are changed, when they become open and clear to Spirit? Of course, yes! So when you "study scripture", with whose set of eyes are you seeing it? If you practice contemplation, it will enormously affect how you see, what you hear, and how you respond. If you're only looking out of your 'clouded' mind, trying to see what you can, you are seeing, "through a glass darkly", and do not truly see what is before you.


As I just pointed out above, what we are able or unable to see in what we look at right before us is determined by the set of eyes that are looking. People whose minds are darkened can study scripture all day long and what they will see amounts to nothing but a reflection of their own minds. And that is a fact. It is true of anyone. It is not just a matter of reading with your eyes, or developing good study skills. No amount of head knowledge will ever allow to be seen what is a matter of the eyes of the heart to see. If you do not develop the heart, you will never see anything but what the unillumined mind can present. It takes both to be developed. Without contemplation, you are relying on the head, and what it sees will only always reflect how it see, reflecting the one seeing, in all their biases, fears, anxieties, etc.

Don't forget Jesus told the religious of his day to study scripture because it spoke of him. They studied, but still could not see. So what he meant was basically to have an opened mind through the illumination of Spirit, through the heart, in order to see what is right before them that they are unable to see currently in all their religiousness. The first commandment is to love God, not to go read the Bible. Love is an action of the heart. Contemplation is the key to this, without which, you see only what your own biases from the mind allow to be seen. Same story throughout all ages.


It depends on how it's practiced, doesn't it? I've seen more than a lion's share of Christian churches that are in fact exactly like the Pharisees as portrayed in the Gospel of Matthew. It's not hard to imagine Jesus stand before these religious who identify by his name and saying precisely the same things to them he did to the Pharisees of his day. They created a stumbling block for people to come to God in their self-righteousness, substituting correct beliefs and doctrines over hearing, seeing, knowing, and loving with the eyes of the heart. "By their fruits you shall know them", not by their religiousness.


That freedom produces righteousness from within. It is not expressed by conformity to the rules set forth by others to follow. It is instead a living law, being written moment to moment upon the heart that knows God, with the heart, with Spirit. The mind without that, is an empty shell.


Who was scripture written by, but those with a heart that knew God? It's not a book chiseled in stone, but being written on the tablets of each and every heart that knows God, moment to moment. It is not an external code you conform to, but an internal Life you live and create.
Not really. Contemplative practice has been part of the very early church from long before the modern age and exposures to Eastern practices. It has a long history of tradition. From here:

Contemplative prayer is by no means a modern addition to Christianity. Contemplative Christian prayer has representatives in every age. A form of contemplative prayer was first practiced and taught by the Desert Fathers of Egypt, Palestine and Syria including Evagrius, St. Augustine and St. Gregory the Great in the West, and Pseudo-Dionysius and the Hesychasts in the East.

In the Middle Ages, St. Bernard of Clarivaux, William of St. Thierry and Guigo the Carthusian represent the Christian contemplative tradition, as well as the Rhineland mystics, including St. Hildegard, St. Mechtilde, Meister Eckhart, Ruysbroek and Tauler. Later, the author of The Imitation of Christ and the English mystics of the 14th century such as the author of The Cloud of Unknowing, Walter Hilton, Richard Rolle, and Julian of Norwich became part of the Christian contemplative heritage.

After the Reformation, the Carmelites of St. Teresa of Avila, St. John of the Cross and St. Therese of Lisieux; the French school of spiritual writers, including St. Francis de Sales, St. Jane de Chantal and Cardinal Berulle; the Jesuits, including fathers De Caussade, Lallemont and Surin; the Benedictines, like Dom Augustine Baker and Dom John Chapman, and modern Cistercians such as Dom Vital Lehodey and Thomas Merton, all cultivated practices in their lives that they believed led to the spiritual gift of contemplation.​

That we find such practices also exist in the East speaks to the nature of the human being itself in relation to the divine. I for one do not begin with the idea that if someone else has discovered the same practices in other parts of the world and other religions, that that means your practice is "of the devil" or some such fear reaction. If that was so, you should get rid of you own sacred scriptures because other religions have them too! :) This of course makes no sense. That you find similar practices and approaches in religions the world over speaks to the heart of the human being in relation to finding Ultimate Peace, in whatever ways we all have available to us.

In any religious path, and particularly in Christianity, a practice of contemplation is the greatest patch to finding that along its own traditional trajectory. As Archbishop Rowan Williams said in that article linked to in an earlier post,

Contemplating God in Jesus, he declared, teaches Christians “how to look at one another and at the whole of God’s creation.”

Archbishop Williams described contemplation as “the key” to prayer, liturgy, art, ethics, and “the essence of a renewed humanity” that is free from “self-oriented, acquisitive habits” and their distortions.

“To put it boldly, contemplation is the only ultimate answer to the unreal and insane world that our financial systems and our advertising culture and our chaotic and unexamined emotions encourage us to inhabit,” the Anglican archbishop said.​

This then comes into my response about how one reads and understands scriptures is influenced by either how clear or how clouded our active minds are. As you see above he points how it teaches one, "how to look at one another and at the whole of God's creation.". People look at one another all the time. But what are they seeing, and does that change when our own hearts and minds are changed, when they become open and clear to Spirit? Of course, yes! So when you "study scripture", with whose set of eyes are you seeing it? If you practice contemplation, it will enormously affect how you see, what you hear, and how you respond. If you're only looking out of your 'clouded' mind, trying to see what you can, you are seeing, "through a glass darkly", and do not truly see what is before you.


As I just pointed out above, what we are able or unable to see in what we look at right before us is determined by the set of eyes that are looking. People whose minds are darkened can study scripture all day long and what they will see amounts to nothing but a reflection of their own minds. And that is a fact. It is true of anyone. It is not just a matter of reading with your eyes, or developing good study skills. No amount of head knowledge will ever allow to be seen what is a matter of the eyes of the heart to see. If you do not develop the heart, you will never see anything but what the unillumined mind can present. It takes both to be developed. Without contemplation, you are relying on the head, and what it sees will only always reflect how it see, reflecting the one seeing, in all their biases, fears, anxieties, etc.

Don't forget Jesus told the religious of his day to study scripture because it spoke of him. They studied, but still could not see. So what he meant was basically to have an opened mind through the illumination of Spirit, through the heart, in order to see what is right before them that they are unable to see currently in all their religiousness. The first commandment is to love God, not to go read the Bible. Love is an action of the heart. Contemplation is the key to this, without which, you see only what your own biases from the mind allow to be seen. Same story throughout all ages.


It depends on how it's practiced, doesn't it? I've seen more than a lion's share of Christian churches that are in fact exactly like the Pharisees as portrayed in the Gospel of Matthew. It's not hard to imagine Jesus stand before these religious who identify by his name and saying precisely the same things to them he did to the Pharisees of his day. They created a stumbling block for people to come to God in their self-righteousness, substituting correct beliefs and doctrines over hearing, seeing, knowing, and loving with the eyes of the heart. "By their fruits you shall know them", not by their religiousness.


That freedom produces righteousness from within. It is not expressed by conformity to the rules set forth by others to follow. It is instead a living law, being written moment to moment upon the heart that knows God, with the heart, with Spirit. The mind without that, is an empty shell.


Who was scripture written by, but those with a heart that knew God? It's not a book chiseled in stone, but being written on the tablets of each and every heart that knows God, moment to moment. It is not an external code you conform to, but an internal Life you live and create.

Hi Windwalker,

I created a thread for contemplative Christianity (in Gen. Debate section) with my reply to your posted message, so we will not out of the topic here.

Thanks
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
I was reading on my Facebook timeline (I really need to take a break from it, I know). There was an article about how an Evangelical Church College was giving marriage benefits to their gay employees. Whether the article was true or not is not the question, it's the vile speech that is coming to people who are supposed to be loving that I read underneath the posted article; I found myself getting angry at them. I got tired of them and I made a big statement how we are, as Christians, supposed to be loving toward EVERYONE: God, our brothers and sisters in Christ, our neighbors, and our enemies. I said that the gay employees would fall under "neighbor" and we should be kind to them. I reminded them of the story of the good Samaritan and that someday it could be one of them who is hurt and a gay man or woman might be the one that helps them. I ended the statement with "God is the judge, we're not".

I feel as though, even if a person believes that being gay or sodomy is a sin, that they should still treat gay people with respect and dignity and if they don't, they are not following Jesus' commands. In other words, I feel as though I was judging the Christians for judging the people were giving the benefits and gay people. I tried to be kind in my spiel, but still...

I would like some input from my fellow Christians about this. It's rather disturbing to me to see those hateful comments they made. It makes me sad.
I think this is what happens when our faith becomes politicized--we begin focusing more on political positions and ideas, and start to ignore the people right in front of us. And we know how politics polarizes everything and makes everyone get all angry and judgemental and close-minded...
 

David1967

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
In reference to the title of your post I would have to say, "And sometimes my fellow Christians get rather frustrated with me." ;)
 

12jtartar

Active Member
Premium Member
I was reading on my Facebook timeline (I really need to take a break from it, I know). There was an article about how an Evangelical Church College was giving marriage benefits to their gay employees. Whether the article was true or not is not the question, it's the vile speech that is coming to people who are supposed to be loving that I read underneath the posted article; I found myself getting angry at them. I got tired of them and I made a big statement how we are, as Christians, supposed to be loving toward EVERYONE: God, our brothers and sisters in Christ, our neighbors, and our enemies. I said that the gay employees would fall under "neighbor" and we should be kind to them. I reminded them of the story of the good Samaritan and that someday it could be one of them who is hurt and a gay man or woman might be the one that helps them. I ended the statement with "God is the judge, we're not".

I feel as though, even if a person believes that being gay or sodomy is a sin, that they should still treat gay people with respect and dignity and if they don't, they are not following Jesus' commands. In other words, I feel as though I was judging the Christians for judging the people were giving the benefits and gay people. I tried to be kind in my spiel, but still...

I would like some input from my fellow Christians about this. It's rather disturbing to me to see those hateful comments they made. It makes me sad.

ChristineES,
First, it is important to remember, all who call themselves Christian, are not Christian. They are, what is called Nominal Christian, Matthew 7:21-23, Titus 1:16, John 13:34,35, 1John 2:4, 4:20,21.To be a true Christian you must be a follower of Jesus, 1Pet 2:21. Christians do not judge others, Matthew 7:1-5. That statement about judging does not mean that we should not judge the actions of some, who are living a de botched life. We are not to associate with those people, except when trying to help them change their lives, 1Corinthians 15:33, 2Corinthians 6:14,15. Notice 2John 1:9-11. Pay close attention as to what is written at 1Corinthians 5:9-13. You see by what Paul wrote, that we are to judge as to whether a person is obeying God's word, and if not, we are not to associate ourselves with such a one. We will always help them to understand God's word, but not socialize with them, Matthew 28:19,20, 2Timothy 4:2-5. In this way we show love for our neighbors without socializing with them.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
ChristineES,
First, it is important to remember, all who call themselves Christian, are not Christian. They are, what is called Nominal Christian, Matthew 7:21-23, Titus 1:16, John 13:34,35, 1John 2:4, 4:20,21.To be a true Christian you must be a follower of Jesus, 1Pet 2:21. Christians do not judge others, Matthew 7:1-5. That statement about judging does not mean that we should not judge the actions of some, who are living a de botched life. We are not to associate with those people, except when trying to help them change their lives, 1Corinthians 15:33, 2Corinthians 6:14,15. Notice 2John 1:9-11. Pay close attention as to what is written at 1Corinthians 5:9-13. You see by what Paul wrote, that we are to judge as to whether a person is obeying God's word, and if not, we are not to associate ourselves with such a one. We will always help them to understand God's word, but not socialize with them, Matthew 28:19,20, 2Timothy 4:2-5. In this way we show love for our neighbors without socializing with them.
Jesus socialized with sinners. If you seriously think that Jesus would be pleased by someone who went around calling people to repentance but refused to be a genuine friend to them, your understanding of what a Christian is leaves a lot to be desired.
 

David1967

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Jesus socialized with sinners. If you seriously think that Jesus would be pleased by someone who went around calling people to repentance but refused to be a genuine friend to them, your understanding of what a Christian is leaves a lot to be desired.
Good point. Just look at those that Jesus did befriend: prostitutes, tax collectors, and sinners. Those he was most critical of were the supposed religious people of his time the Pharisees, Sadducees and Scribes, the self righteous who could not see that they were just as bad as the ones they criticized.
 
Top