Can God Lie?

[DawudTalut]

But some verses do demand a second witness.

Do try to be honest with us.

Do you favor the Afghanistan rape law or are you against it?

Regards
DL

Such abuses are not only in Afghanistan but at other places too.
Ahmadiyya-Muslim [The Reformers] are against such abuses. We condemn such misinterpretation by fanatics.

Islam and the Quran Require Us to Honor, Not Abuse, Women | Islam Ahmadiyya
wwwDOTalislamDOTorg/egazette/articles/islam-and-the-quran-require-us-to-honor-not-abuse-women/

 

[JoStories]

No argument.

I would say that indoctrination of children is anti-Christ in the sense that Jesus said to seek God and if children are turned into idol worshipers the way most Christians and Muslims are, they will never gain enlightenment and apotheosis.

Idol worshipers do not seek nor do they find God. They have settled for an idol.

Regards
DL

I totally agree. It is one of the major points of this faith that led me to find a different path. I cannot comprehend God condemning children for any reason. I can think of few more innocent than children. Now, I have seen children so damaged that they are beyond repair. I had one boy brought to the ER in th northeast by his 'mother' and she stood there, in full view and hearing range of every patient and told us to 'keep this piece of sh*t'. I have to date never seen a child with a more despondent and heart broken expression. This child was destined to become a career criminal. However, I do not blame the child, of course but rather his 'mother' and trust me, I use the word loosely. God would never have condemned the boy for the heinous acts of that piece of merde.

 

[Greatest I am]

Such abuses are not only in Afghanistan but at other places too.
Ahmadiyya-Muslim [The Reformers] are against such abuses. We condemn such misinterpretation by fanatics.

Islam and the Quran Require Us to Honor, Not Abuse, Women | Islam Ahmadiyya
wwwDOTalislamDOTorg/egazette/articles/islam-and-the-quran-require-us-to-honor-not-abuse-women/

Yet there are about 5000 Honor killings of Muslim women yearly.

Statistics & Data

Do you think something is wrong in the way Islam is taught when so many Muslim men do not understand that they are to respect women and not kill them?

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

I totally agree. It is one of the major points of this faith that led me to find a different path. I cannot comprehend God condemning children for any reason. I can think of few more innocent than children. Now, I have seen children so damaged that they are beyond repair. I had one boy brought to the ER in th northeast by his 'mother' and she stood there, in full view and hearing range of every patient and told us to 'keep this piece of sh*t'. I have to date never seen a child with a more despondent and heart broken expression. This child was destined to become a career criminal. However, I do not blame the child, of course but rather his 'mother' and trust me, I use the word loosely. God would never have condemned the boy for the heinous acts of that piece of merde.

I hear you.

Vile and criminal people are not born that way unless insane. The vast majority of what we could call vile people are created by those around them. We are all products of our environment and the nurturing we get.

Seems that you were aware of this. If you would have "keep this piece of sh*t'." --- you would as you know, kept the woman there. Damn it all we are slow to civilize ourselves as a species.

There is hope though as I understand that the only ones now promoting corporal punishment are right wing literalist Christians. They too will eventually become civilised.

Regards
DL

 

[DawudTalut]

Yet there are about 5000 Honor killings of Muslim women yearly.

Statistics & Data

Do you think something is wrong in the way Islam is taught when so many Muslim men do not understand that they are to respect women and not kill them?

Regards
DL

Peace be on you.
Yes, it is one of areas clergies do not concentrate much.
Woman is real Islam (not the Islam of clergies) is valued, cherished, loved and admired.

 

[JoStories]

I hear you.

Vile and criminal people are not born that way unless insane. The vast majority of what we could call vile people are created by those around them. We are all products of our environment and the nurturing we get.

Seems that you were aware of this. If you would have "keep this piece of sh*t'." --- you would as you know, kept the woman there. Damn it all we are slow to civilize ourselves as a species.

There is hope though as I understand that the only ones now promoting corporal punishment are right wing literalist Christians. They too will eventually become civilised.

Regards
DL

Ah... The old nature v nurture argument. My mentor and I argued this all the time. His view was that it was neuropsychologically based and I said it was both and when our behavioralist joined us, it could become very heated. As for that woman, no, we would never have kept her there. Hospitals are safe harbors, and trust me, that child was better off in foster care, as bad as that can be at times. And unfortunately, I agree that most who continue to use corporal punishment are the right wing republican Christians (no offense to those people who walk that path). I can only hope that one day, all forms of corporal punishment will be deemed illegal. It teaches a child not one damned thing.

 

[JoStories]

Peace be on you.
Yes, it is one of areas clergies do not concentrate much.
Woman is real Islam (not the Islam of clergies) is valued, cherished, loved and admired.

While I agree that some Muslims are not treating women so badly, many still are, particlularly middle eastern and east European countries as well as some African and Asian countries. I lived in Zimbabwe for a year and saw first hand the treatment of women and girl children. It sickens me to know that 12 years later, it still is going on. In the name of the qu'ran btw.

 

[Greatest I am]

Peace be on you.
Yes, it is one of areas clergies do not concentrate much.
Woman is real Islam (not the Islam of clergies) is valued, cherished, loved and admired.

LOL.

Got that. Now there are suddenly two Islams. One good and one evil.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

Ah... The old nature v nurture argument. My mentor and I argued this all the time. His view was that it was neuropsychologically based and I said it was both and when our behavioralist joined us, it could become very heated. As for that woman, no, we would never have kept her there. Hospitals are safe harbors, and trust me, that child was better off in foster care, as bad as that can be at times. And unfortunately, I agree that most who continue to use corporal punishment are the right wing republican Christians (no offense to those people who walk that path). I can only hope that one day, all forms of corporal punishment will be deemed illegal. It teaches a child not one damned thing.

I agree.

One thing my, --- kinder than I, ---- kind hearted friend.

" (no offense to those people who walk that path). "

I would tell those on that path that I and any civilized person do take offence in the name of the child you would beat.

I do not believe in being politically correct with those who do not deserve it.

Regards
DL

 

[atpollard]

You're just arguing semantics here. To deceive in any form is to lie.

So when your wife asks "Does this dress make me look fat?", your unhesitating response is ...

 

[JoStories]

I agree.

One thing my, --- kinder than I, ---- kind hearted friend.

" (no offense to those people who walk that path). "

I would tell those on that path that I and any civilized person do take offence in the name of the child you would beat.

I do not believe in being politically correct with those who do not deserve it.

Regards
DL

Neither do I but let me tell you a story. I was working in that very same ER and a woman was admitted from a nursing home with intractable pain from skin cancer. I will not bore you with the horrific details but it had every nurse weeping. I called the doc she had and he said give her two Tylenol. I was beyond annoyed. However, I firmly believe in karma and two days later that doctor's daughter was brought in with a broken arm. She was 10 and when he asked me to get her some pain medication, I suggested 2 Tylenol. Needless to say, he got the message. And that sweet elder passed a couple days later on a dilaudud drip. I will also say I have gone to the mat several times for similar scenarios and sometimes won and sometimes lost. But i will never ever stop fighting the good fight.

 

[Greatest I am]

So when your wife asks "Does this dress make me look fat?", your unhesitating response is ...

A true lie will have evil intent. Self preservation is a worthy intent.

Have you ever been hit by a frying pan?

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

Neither do I but let me tell you a story. I was working in that very same ER and a woman was admitted from a nursing home with intractable pain from skin cancer. I will not bore you with the horrific details but it had every nurse weeping. I called the doc she had and he said give her two Tylenol. I was beyond annoyed. However, I firmly believe in karma and two days later that doctor's daughter was brought in with a broken arm. She was 10 and when he asked me to get her some pain medication, I suggested 2 Tylenol. Needless to say, he got the message. And that sweet elder passed a couple days later on a dilaudud drip. I will also say I have gone to the mat several times for similar scenarios and sometimes won and sometimes lost. But i will never ever stop fighting the good fight.

Some are bright enough to get the message but let's not forget the statistics and reports that show that the more religious are not as bright as the non-religious.

That is why I do not use politically correct language as too many religious do not get the message because they lack the intelligence.

Regards
DL

 

[atpollard]

Such abuses are not only in Afghanistan but at other places too.
Ahmadiyya-Muslim [The Reformers] are against such abuses. We condemn such misinterpretation by fanatics.

Unfortunately, it is not the fanatics who are misinterpreting the Qur'an ...

Qur'an 9:29
"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

Calls for the faithful to harm "People of the Book" (that's Christians and Jews).
So any peace and love towards women verses only apply to Muslim women.

For non-Muslim women (or heretic Muslim women), a more appropriate verse might be

Qur'an 4:24
"Forbidden for you are women already married, except such as your right hand possesses. Allah has enjoined these on you."

Qur'an 23:6
"(Successful indeed are those believers who guard their private parts) except for their wives or those whom their right hand posseses."

Qur'an 70:30
"(Worshipers guard their private parts) except from their wives and from those whom their right hand posseses; such indeed, are not to blame."

So what the heck does "their right hand posses" mean?
Please correct me if I am wrong, but if you want clarification about anything in the Qur'an, then you need to look in the Hadith.

Sahih Muslim 8.3432 provides the context for 4:24 ...
"At the Battle of Hunain, Allah's Messenger sent an army to Autas and fought with the enemy. Having overcome them and taken them captives, the Companions of Allah's Messenger seemed to refrain from having intercourse with captive women because of their polytheist husbands. Then Allah Most High sent down the verse '(forbidden for you are) women already married, except those who your right hand posseses (Qur'an 4:24).'"

Sunan Abu Daud 11.2150 and Tafsir ibn Kathir and Sahih Bukhari 5.59.459 and Sahih Muslim 8.3371 provides similar support and additional details that paint an even darker picture for all three verses.

While this is not really the appropriate topic to discuss details on the Qur'an, this is where people are making false claims about what Islam teaches. This is not my opinion. These are the Muslim holy books that you and they can easily go and read for yourself.

Draw your own conclusions about what it says.

 

[JoStories]

Some are bright enough to get the message but let's not forget the statistics and reports that show that the more religious are not as bright as the non-religious.

That is why I do not use politically correct language as too many religious do not get the message because they lack the intelligence.

Regards
DL

I can't say I agree with you here greatest. I have met and worked with some religious people who are brilliant. And some atheists who did not have the brain cells to pound sand. I wonder, are those people who you think do not get your message, is it because they are not intelligent enough or because they choose to view things more simply? I have known people who gasp if you say merde, which I find to be about as petty and fake as they come. And I have also know some people whose view on life is truly that straight forward and simple. I choose to be kind because I believe in karma. When I treat people well, most of the time, I am treated similarly. I don't really see a down side to that. Just my two cents sir

 

[Greatest I am]

I can't say I agree with you here greatest. I have met and worked with some religious people who are brilliant. And some atheists who did not have the brain cells to pound sand. I wonder, are those people who you think do not get your message, is it because they are not intelligent enough or because they choose to view things more simply? I have known people who gasp if you say merde, which I find to be about as petty and fake as they come. And I have also know some people whose view on life is truly that straight forward and simple. I choose to be kind because I believe in karma. When I treat people well, most of the time, I am treated similarly. I don't really see a down side to that. Just my two cents sir

Anecdotally, we all know smart and dumb people but when religious surveys by those without bias are consistently showing that the religious are less intelligent than the average, then to not believe it is to just put blinders.

Most religious believe in fantasy characters, miracles and magic and that may hinder higher intellect.

I am kind for the sake of being kind. Not because of a karmic belief that I will face unkindness myself when I return.
I always try to be as kind as possible but the religious need tough love more than anything else to knock them out of their delusional thinking.

Here is the latest.

Regards
DL

 

[JoStories]

Anecdotally, we all know smart and dumb people but when religious surveys by those without bias are consistently showing that the religious are less intelligent than the average, then to not believe it is to just put blinders.

Most religious believe in fantasy characters, miracles and magic and that may hinder higher intellect.

I am kind for the sake of being kind. Not because of a karmic belief that I will face unkindness myself when I return.
I always try to be as kind as possible but the religious need tough love more than anything else to knock them out of their delusional thinking.

Here is the latest.

Regards
DL

Interesting video. I agre with most of what that young man had to say, having traveled extensively. By far, and I apologize to anyone living in the southeast before I begin, I have seen so many lower IQ people who were or are morbidly obese in that area. Are people happier d/t religion? Maybe it gives them solace with regard to life's harder questions and/or issues. I don't know that I agree with that though. The happier people I have met were more spiritual than religious, and many followed a deist free path. While it is true that most, if not all, religions contain myth and fantastical ideas, and nine can be proven, they also give people peace. I fail to see the down side of that. Particularly with elders facing death.

 

[DawudTalut]

A true lie will have evil intent. Self preservation is a worthy intent.

Have you ever been hit by a frying pan?

Regards
DL

Just on lighter note:
As ufos are mostly seen in west and some kind of imaginary
jinnies take over some people in east, similarly frying pans are used in western 'sagas' but in east people report function of something like this:

the kitchen roller may 'fly'.

 

[DawudTalut]

Blue are words/questions of atpollard from # 114
Black are answers by DawudTalut

Unfortunately, it is not the fanatics who are misinterpreting the Qur'an ...

Qur'an 9:29
"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

Calls for the faithful to harm "People of the Book" (that's Christians and Jews).
So any peace and love towards women verses only apply to Muslim women.

Peace be on you.
I am re-taking answer from a post of mine in RF @ Does religious faith create values? | ReligiousForums.com
It said:

Right sense of chapter 9
One should wonder How can a religion (Islam) ask to kill all idolaters, while it ask believers to take message to everyone. The chapter 9's subject was a challenge to rebels who were trying to annihilate Muslims. Please read the initial verses and notes;

More @ The Holy Quran
wwwDOTalislamDOTorg/quran/tafseer/?page=378&region=EN&CR=E1,E2

Thus nowhere a Licence to Kill all idolaters is given (as portrayed in original passage).

--------
Thus good friend! the verse 9:29 is not a general permission for believers.




atpollard said
For non-Muslim women (or heretic Muslim women), a more appropriate verse might be

Qur'an 4:24
"Forbidden for you are women already married, except such as your right hand possesses. Allah has enjoined these on you."

Qur'an 23:6
"(Successful indeed are those believers who guard their private parts) except for their wives or those whom their right hand posseses."

Qur'an 70:30
"(Worshipers guard their private parts) except from their wives and from those whom their right hand posseses; such indeed, are not to blame."

So what the heck does "their right hand posses" mean?
Please correct me if I am wrong,

Yes, kindly note there is a painful situation behind these things. When Islam began, they were persecuted for long time, but they did not answer and kept suffered they were not allowed for retaliation. They migrated to nearby Medina and other places. Even then opponents did not stop and kept coming to finish them, all wars were fought near their place of sanctuary. When they went too far in their atrocities, believers were allowed to answer them in their terms, as you can read here:

The Holy Quran


For Ahmadiyya-Muslims, The Promised Reformer, The Promised Messiah Mahdi with Khilafat has come since 1889, so we learn Holy Quran and Hadith from his clarifications and teachings...... Too much has been added to real Islam and it is has become religion of piece (God-forbidden) by the fanatics instead The Religion of Peace. We, the Ahmadiyya-Muslims stand to bring it to the world with our practice (while suffering a lot in this endeavour) in its nascent form by the grace of God.

 

[atpollard]

For Ahmadiyya-Muslims, The Promised Reformer, The Promised Messiah Mahdi with Khilafat has come since 1889, so we learn Holy Quran and Hadith from his clarifications and teachings...... Too much has been added to real Islam and it is has become religion of piece (God-forbidden) by the fanatics instead The Religion of Peace. We, the Ahmadiyya-Muslims stand to bring it to the world with our practice (while suffering a lot in this endeavour) in its nascent form by the grace of God.

Grace and peace of my lord Jesus and of the Almighty God to you.

I have a friend who is a former Ahmadiyya-Muslim.
He has told me of the beauty of Islam and the gentle grace of what his loving parents taught him.
He has told me of his pride in his people and the his great joy at your 1989 gathering in England.

He also told me that many Muslims (wrongly) criticize your sect, some claiming that you are not true Muslims ... that some call you kafir.

I greatly admire your stand against violence, but I hope that you will be honest enough with me to admit that some Shia and Sunnis would not agree with your interpretations of the Qur'an.
I personally suspect that most Shia and Sunnis would disagree with your teachings.

What concerns me, is that 10-15% of Muslims are Shia and 80% are Sunnis. That leaves only 5% to 10% of Muslims who might share your peaceful view of the Qur'an.

With verses like the following, it is not hard to see how some Muslims might not take the struggle and fighting to be of a spiritual nature, but adopt the Hadith teachings that it is a more physical and militant struggle that you are called to.

Qur’an 5:51—O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

Qur’an 9:30—And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!

Qur’an 98:6—Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein. They are the worst of creatures.

Sahih Muslim 4366—Muhammad said: “I will expel the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave any but Muslim.”

Al-Bukhari, Al-Adab al-Mufrad 1103—Muhammad said: “Do not give the People of the Book the greeting first. Force them to the narrowest part of the road.”​

I hope that the Ahmadiyya-Muslims will one day win over the majority.
Until then, I fear it is a dangerous road to assume that all Muslims hold your peaceful intentions.
Muslim against Muslim violence suggests that my fears are not unfounded.

May God bless you and keep you.