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Can God Lie?

Greatest I am

Well-Known Member
Peace be on all.
According to Holy Quran, God is Holy, does not have weakness:
[59:23] He is Allah, and there is no God beside Him, the Knower of the unseen and the seen. He is the Gracious, the Merciful.

[59:24] He is Allah, and there is no God beside Him, the Sovereign, the Holy One, the Source of Peace, the Bestower of Security, the Protector, the Mighty, the Subduer, the Exalted. Holy is Allah far above that which they associate with Him.

[59:25] He is Allah, the Creator, the Maker, the Fashioner. His are the most beautiful names. All that is in the heavens and the earth glorifies Him, and He is the Mighty, the Wise.

alislamDOTorg/quran

Your Qur'an also shows your God to be an unforgiving and unmerciful to all those he will send to hell.

There is no sin in this finite world that deserves infinite punishment.

Right?

If you know of one then name it.

Regards
DL
 

Greatest I am

Well-Known Member
I agree completely. Having been a victim of that myself, I have seen the detriment it can cause. And it's one of the reasons that I believe no children should be subjected to religion until they have the capacity for abstact throught. I do think it's fine to teach the myths in story tale form, but not the fire and brimstone part of most faiths. My children were not taught they had to go to church and were told answers to any questions with simple and truthful, to the best of my ability, answers. Later, my daughter chose Lutheranism and my son chose a Pagan path. I don't think making a child go to church creates a believer in the faith but rather creates a person indoctrinated who really has never given religion or spirituality any real thought.

No argument.

I would say that indoctrination of children is anti-Christ in the sense that Jesus said to seek God and if children are turned into idol worshipers the way most Christians and Muslims are, they will never gain enlightenment and apotheosis.

Idol worshipers do not seek nor do they find God. They have settled for an idol.

Regards
DL
 

DawudTalut

Peace be upon you.
Your Qur'an also shows your God to be an unforgiving and unmerciful to all those he will send to hell.

There is no sin in this finite world that deserves infinite punishment.

Right?

If you know of one then name it.

Regards
DL

Peace be on you.

Here is reference, for Hell as temporary-correctional-facility [ in this world even a injection needle hurts!]:

HOLY QURAN, CHAPTER 101, VERSE 10, NOTE 4825 @

5VC3184.jpg


Source: The Holy Quran

wwwDOTalislamDOTorg/quran/tafseer/?page=2875&region=E1&CR=EN,E2&CR=EN,E2
 

Pudding

Well-Known Member
Yes, he tells her she will die that day.
If he did tells her she will die that day, then it can say that God indeed lies.
But it can also say that God had regret what he have previously said so he break the promises, so maybe it means he doesn't lie.

But has there some verses in the Bible say that God's word never change?
 

Greatest I am

Well-Known Member
Peace be on you.

Here is reference, for Hell as temporary-correctional-facility [ in this world even a injection needle hurts!]:

HOLY QURAN, CHAPTER 101, VERSE 10, NOTE 4825 @

5VC3184.jpg


Source: The Holy Quran

wwwDOTalislamDOTorg/quran/tafseer/?page=2875&region=E1&CR=EN,E2&CR=EN,E2

You made my point. Thanks.

If your God can only cure those he thinks are afflicted with torture, then he shows his unforgiving and unmerciful character.

Should you not be looking for a moral God?

Try Gnostic Christianity or your own Gnostic branch of Islam. I think they believe that women are just as equal to men as men. If your religion cannot begin with equality of it's women and gays, then it is not a worthy or moral religion.

Regards
DL
 

Greatest I am

Well-Known Member
If he did tells her she will die that day, then it can say that God indeed lies.
But it can also say that God had regret what he have previously said so he break the promises, so maybe it means he doesn't lie.

But has there some verses in the Bible say that God's word never change?

Yes there are and that makes God a liar.

In fact, if God is the epitome of all characteristics as scriptures say he is, then we are not to name any greater liar than God. God must be the Father of all lies or there is another creator above him.

Regards
DL
 

DawudTalut

Peace be upon you.
You made my point. Thanks.

If your God can only cure those he thinks are afflicted with torture, then he shows his unforgiving and unmerciful character.

Should you not be looking for a moral God?

Try Gnostic Christianity or your own Gnostic branch of Islam. I think they believe that women are just as equal to men as men. If your religion cannot begin with equality of it's women and gays, then it is not a worthy or moral religion.

Regards
DL
It is no where said that Allah will cure 'afflicted ones' with torture in all cases.
He knows everyone's real inside, everyone's situations, lacks, did everyone use wisdom properly etc,
[2:285] To Allah belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth; and whether you disclose what is in your minds or keep it hidden, Allah will call you to account for it; then will He forgive whomsoever He pleases and punish whomsoever He pleases; and Allah has the power to do all that He wills.

[3:136] And those who, when they commit a foul deed or wrong themselves, remember Allah and implore forgiveness for their sins — and who can forgive sins except Allah? — and do not persist knowingly in what they have done.

[39:54] Say, “O My servants who have committed excesses against their own souls! despair not of the mercy of Allah, surely Allah forgives all sins. Verily He is Most Forgiving, Merciful.

[66:7] O ye who believe! save yourselves and your families from a Fire whose fuel is men and stones, over which are appointed angels, stern and severe, who disobey not Allah in what He commands them and do as they are commanded.

[7:157] ‘And ordain for us good in this world, as well as in the next; we have turned to Thee with repentance.’ God replied, ‘I will inflict My punishment on whom I will; but My mercy encompasses all things; so I will ordain it for those who act righteously, and pay the Zakat and those who believe in Our Signs —
 

Greatest I am

Well-Known Member
[7:157] ‘And ordain for us good in this world, as well as in the next; we have turned to Thee with repentance.’ God replied, ‘I will inflict My punishment on whom I will; but My mercy encompasses all things; so I will ordain it for those who act righteously, and pay the Zakat and those who believe in Our Signs —

You will note that it says that his mercy will encompass all things yet further he says he will obtain it for those who act righteously, IOW, those who do not need it, while not giving it to those who do.

*EDIT*

Any God who kills instead of curing those he thinks defective is not a moral God. Any God who cannot save all and must lose any of his creations is a loser of a God and not worthy of a man's loyalty.

Why do you follow a God who makes your women second class citizens?

Regards
DL
 
Last edited by a moderator:

DawudTalut

Peace be upon you.
Answer to above post # 93
Peace be on you.
Perhaps, rather surely, you are not understanding the God in Islam. Let's try again.
1- God made everyone.

2- Sent Messengers with His commandments.

3- These commandments comprised two parts: Pay rights of God and Pay rights of people.

4- Messengers, like caring mother do their best, despite suffering persecution.

5- Denying God has two aspects:
a) Just deny God and His message and live a normal life, do not hurt anyone etc..
b) Deny God and become active in persecuting those who believe in God and His Messenger, with words and actions. These persecutors are never peaceful people in their own sphere of society. They commit all kinds of atrocities to gain earthly powers.

6- God and His Messengers try their best to save the society from decline, for example:
[7:86] And to Midian We sent their brother Shu‘aib. He said, ‘O my people, worship Allah; you have no other deity but Him. A clear Sign has indeed come to you from your Lord. So give full measure and full weight, and diminish not unto people their things, and create not disorder in the earth after it has been set in order. This is better for you, if you are believers.

[7:87] ‘And sit not on every path, threatening and turning away from the path of Allah those who believe in Him, and seeking to make it crooked. And remember when you were few and He multiplied you. And behold, what was the end of those who created disorder!

[7:89] The chief men of his people who were arrogant said, ‘Assuredly, we will drive thee out, O Shu‘aib, and the believers that are with thee, from our town, or you shall have to return to our religion.’ He said: ‘Even though we be unwilling?


[7:90] ‘We have indeed been forging a lie against Allah, if we now return to your religion after Allah has saved us therefrom. And it behoves us not to return thereto except that Allah, our Lord, should so will. Our Lord comprehends all things in His knowledge. In Allah have we put our trust. So O our Lord, decide Thou between us and between our people with truth, and Thou art the Best of those who decide.’

[7:91] And the chief men of his people who disbelieved said, ‘If you follow Shu‘aib, you shall then certainly be the losers.’

[7:92] So the earthquake seized them and in their homes they lay prostrate upon the ground.

[7:93] Those who accused Shu‘aib of lying became as if they had never dwelt therein. Those who accused Shu‘aib of lying — it was they who were the losers.


7- Messengers do their best, for example Noah:
[71:6] He said, “My Lord, I have called my people night and day,
[71:7] “But my calling them has only made them flee from me all the more.
[71:8] “And every time I called them that Thou mightest forgive them, they put their fingers into their ears, and covered up their hearts, and persisted in their iniquity, and were disdainfully proud.
[71:9] “Then, I called them to righteousness openly.
[71:10] “Then I preached to them in public, and also spoke to them in private.
[71:11] “And I said, ‘Seek forgiveness of your Lord; for He is the Great Forgiver.
[71:12] ‘He will send down rain for you in abundance,
[71:13] ‘And He will strengthen you with wealth and with children, and He will give you gardens and He will give you rivers.
[71:14] ‘What is the matter with you that you expect not wisdom and staidness from Allah?
[71:15] ‘And He has created you in different forms and different conditions.
[71:16] ‘Have you not seen how Allah has created seven heavens in perfect harmony,
[71:17] ‘And has placed the moon therein as a light, and made the sun as a lamp?
[71:18] ‘And Allah has caused you to grow as a good growth from the earth,
[71:19] ‘Then will He cause you to return thereto, and He will bring you forth a new bringing forth.
[71:20] ‘And Allah has made the earth for you a wide expanse
[71:21] ‘That you may traverse the open ways thereof.’”
[71:22] Noah said, “My Lord, they have disobeyed me, and followed one whose wealth and children have only added to his ruin.
[71:23] “And they have planned a mighty plan.
[71:24] “And they say to one another, ‘Forsake not your gods under any circumstances. And forsake neither Wadd, nor Suwa‘, nor Yaghuth and Ya‘uq and Nasr.’
[71:25] “And they have led many astray; so increase Thou not the wrongdoers but in error.”
[71:26] Because of their sins they were drowned and made to enter Fire. And they found no helpers for themselves against Allah.

This is people who choose to hold hot wire in hand instead of using electricity in proper way to get benefits.
 

Greatest I am

Well-Known Member
When you wish to speak ro my questions I am here for you.

But thanks for sharing your myth with us.

Why do you follow a God who makes your women second class citizens?

Regards
DL
 

DawudTalut

Peace be upon you.
When you wish to speak ro my questions I am here for you.

But thanks for sharing your myth with us.

Why do you follow a God who makes your women second class citizens?

Regards
DL
Peace be on you. If you are seeing weaknesses in women issues in current Islamic countries, you will surely not not seeing status of woman in Islam.

"The Islamic teaching about treatment of women is one of the most misunderstood.......
slam provides guidance for a peaceful and ideal society. For such a society to exist, there must be a social system which upholds the rights and responsibilities of each individual. Such a system would provide a balance in the role and status of men and women, thus putting the status of women on an equal footing with that of men. Such a society was in fact created over 1400 years ago by the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be on him), through the guidance of Allah in the Holy Qur'an.

This chapter provides you with an explanation of the rights that Muslim women enjoy, along with other women's issues and their place in society."

Source: Ahmadiyya Muslim Community

also

Al Islam Ahmadiyya - Media Library - Audio and Video Archive

Good wishes.
 

Greatest I am

Well-Known Member
Peace be on you. If you are seeing weaknesses in women issues in current Islamic countries, you will surely not not seeing status of woman in Islam.

"The Islamic teaching about treatment of women is one of the most misunderstood.......
slam provides guidance for a peaceful and ideal society. For such a society to exist, there must be a social system which upholds the rights and responsibilities of each individual. Such a system would provide a balance in the role and status of men and women, thus putting the status of women on an equal footing with that of men. Such a society was in fact created over 1400 years ago by the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be on him), through the guidance of Allah in the Holy Qur'an.

This chapter provides you with an explanation of the rights that Muslim women enjoy, along with other women's issues and their place in society."

Source: Ahmadiyya Muslim Community

also

Al Islam Ahmadiyya - Media Library - Audio and Video Archive

Good wishes.

"women on an equal footing with that of men"

So women can tell and force their men to dress certain ways the way men do against their women. Right?

One woman in a rape trial has equality with a man even though your law says two women must testify. Right?

Regards
DL
 

DawudTalut

Peace be upon you.
"women on an equal footing with that of men"

So women can tell and force their men to dress certain ways the way men do against their women. Right?

One woman in a rape trial has equality with a man even though your law says two women must testify. Right?

Regards
DL
Peace be on you. Please clear misunderstanding :
Islam's_Response_to_Contemporary_Issues_Page_220.png

Islam's Response to Contemporary Issues

(for ease one can get pdf of the book too https://www.alislam.org/library/books/IslamsResponseToContemporaryIssues.pdf)
 
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