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Can God Lie?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Rex, Feb 26, 2015.

  1. Rex

    Rex Founder

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  2. Mycroft

    Mycroft Ministry of Serendipity

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    Yes, he can lie, if only by proxy (which is still dishonesty): Now, therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee. - 1 Kings 22:23

    O Lord, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived.
    - Jeremiah 20:7
     
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  3. Breathe

    Breathe Hostis humani generis

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    I don't know if I believe if God 'can' lie, because I think it would probably go against the conception of the nature of the Divine in which I believe. I do understand that some would say that to say that this would limit God's omnipotence, but I believe that omnipotence, as such, can only be what is both:
    1. logically possible, and
      (e.g., making a smfdsjeee eeeeidsdsda (because neither have no meaning), making a square circle, making 2+2=5)
    2. not contrary to God's character
      (such as lying -- as I view God as truth, not existing, limiting God's own 'power', and so on)

    However, even if I suppose that it would be possible for God to lie, then I still think God wouldn't.

    Even if a woodchuck could chuck wood, would a woodchuck chuck wood?
     
  4. George-ananda

    George-ananda Advaita Vedanta and Spiritualist and Pantheist
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    I quick scanned the article; wasn't worth my time. It's the repeated theme of non-believer showing the problems of biblical fundamentalism. We must assume: Everything the Bible says that God said must be what God said. Done to death.
     
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  5. oae

    oae Member

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    People can do exactly what they want. God is within you. If you go too far you will be punished. If you excel you will be punished cause people ain't you.
    So stop waring or craving people to acknowledge you as something that's in your mind. Rules are made to make you think but nothing will stop you from getting what you want but you. Nothing stops you from asking for help.
     
    #5 oae, Feb 26, 2015
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2015
  6. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    And if fundies wouldn't claim that everything the Bible says that God said must be what God said, we non-believers wouldn't be able to use it against them. [​IMG] Want to run around without any clothes on and screaming at the top of your lungs, don't blame us for calling you a naked goofball.
     
  7. Nowhere Man

    Nowhere Man Bompu Zen Man with a little bit of Bushido.

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    Didn't people write that with God, nothing's impossible?

    I take that as a yes. God can lie.
     
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  8. George-ananda

    George-ananda Advaita Vedanta and Spiritualist and Pantheist
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    It's just that I hope that at some point picking on 2nd-graders stops being fun and more sophisticated positions are challenged here.
     
  9. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    I'm surprised that you regard such adults as having the mentality of a second grader. In any case, they've chosen to play with the big boys and therefore open up themselves to adult criticism.
    My exact first thought. :thumbsup:
     
  10. Greatest I am

    Greatest I am Well-Known Member

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    God can definitely lie.


    Now, therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee. 1Kings 22:23

    Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets.2 Chron 18:22

    Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people.

    Jer 4:10

    O Lord, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived. Jer 20:7

    And if a prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet.Ezekiel 14:9

    For this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.Thessalonians 2:11

    To me, God’s worse lie was to Adam and Eve. He told them they could eat of the tree of life and then reneged and in a real sense murdered them by denying them a remedy.

    That pesky God sure works in mysterious ways.

    Regards
    DL
     
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  11. Sleeppy

    Sleeppy Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.

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    According to certain Bible authors, He can. According to certain people here, who believe in free will, and who believe God has free will, He can. But according to what I've learned, He cannot lie, but He does deceive.
     
  12. Greatest I am

    Greatest I am Well-Known Member

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    You do not think those terms synonymous. Strange.

    Are they not both immoral practices?

    Regards
    DL
     
  13. Sleeppy

    Sleeppy Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.

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    Some of our ancestors thought the Earth was flat, and that we were in the center of the arena... Did God tell them these things? What's immoral about believing these things?
     
  14. Greatest I am

    Greatest I am Well-Known Member

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    It likely is not on their own.

    That does not answer the question of morality.

    Is it moral to sin and to deceive to you?

    If either are done with an evil intent then they would both be immoral. Do you agree?

    Please do not deflect again. It is a simple moral question.

    Regards
    DL
     
  15. Sleeppy

    Sleeppy Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.

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    Well, I'm not deflecting at all. I have no reason to. -- Deception is not necessarily good or evil; it depends on other factors, such as intent (as you point out). Simple enough?

    Also, our ancestors assumption was their own. They weren't able to see the shape of the Earth, only the horizon, which deceived them.
     
  16. rusra02

    rusra02 Well-Known Member
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    No, I believe God cannot lie. The Bible calls Jehovah the "God of truth", and tells us "in order that through two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie", these two things being his word and his oath. (Hebrews 6:18)
     
  17. rusra02

    rusra02 Well-Known Member
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    Jehovah informed Ahab that his angel had put a deceptive spirit in the mouths of Ahab's false prophets, and declared to Ahab's face that he would suffer calamity, despite what Ahab's false prophets told him. So Jehovah told Ahab the truth.

    As to Jehovah deceiving Jeremiah, "Jehovah had definitely not tricked or deceived Jeremiah by using some crafty, underhanded scheme against him. Rather, God “fooled” his prophet in a positive, beneficial sense. Jeremiah felt that the opposition was too great, that by himself he could no longer fulfill his God-given assignment. But fulfill it he did, with the Almighty’s support and help. Hence, you might say that Jehovah overpowered him, proving far stronger than Jeremiah and his human inclinations." (Quote from God’s Word for Us Through Jeremiah)
     
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  18. Mycroft

    Mycroft Ministry of Serendipity

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    You're just arguing semantics here. To deceive in any form is to lie.
     
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  19. Etritonakin

    Etritonakin Well-Known Member

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    Here, God allowed a spirit who willed to lie to do so. It was likely one of the angels that had already sinned.

    "'By what means?' the LORD asked. "'I will go out and be a deceiving spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,' he said. "'You will succeed in enticing him,' said the LORD. 'Go and do it.'

    I believe the same event is worded differently elsewhere, but the idea is the same.

    It is similar to when the sons of God were gathered and Satan was among them in Job 1.
    God then brought up the subject of Job's righteousness, and Satan suggested that if certain things came to pass, Job would curse God. Then God allowed Satan to do things to Job.
    God did not do those things, but is ultimately responsible for allowing them to happen.

    The events made Job more perfect -he will also see those family members he lost again -and even Satan was proved to be incorrect.

    (It is not easy for many to believe that God cares about Satan's future, but that is why the being who eventually became Christ went to preach to the spirits in prison in the days of Noah. That doesn't refer to spirits of men in some purgatory.
    It is also why the archangel dared not bring a railing accusation against Satan, but instead said "the Lord rebuke thee".

    We definitely ought to leave that matter to God, as the devil may use sympathy for him against us, but certainly God would rather he be as the prodigal son than eventually have to destroy him. Still, it is his decision.)

    It is written that God gave the creation over to futility in hope.

    Allowing angels and man to do wrong things gives them an experience base from which to eventually choose correctly.

    Because God created new beings, they were ignorant and inexperienced.
    God instructed angels and then man, but instruction is not enough.

    The only way for the potential for evil to eventually be completely eradicated is by experience. We have to get it out of out of our systems, so to speak -as individuals and collectively.

    So -God allows us to make wrong choices -and basically says to go do it and see what happens in the end.

    Everything must be viewed in the context of the desired end result -the end that was declared from the beginning.

    Elsewhere, God is quoted as saying he will choose our delusions and bring our worst fears upon us because we did not retain him in our thoughts and did not obey.

    Our worst fears would be realized by disobedience, and we would be self-deluded, regardless.

    It is better that he manages and minimizes such -allowing only that which is necessary and in such a manner as our thoughts will again be turned to obeying him.

    He will essentially deal with us on our terms to bring us back to him.

    He told the truth, but then takes the form of our self-delusion and worst fears to bring us back to the truth in no uncertain terms.

    For example...
    God had written exactly what will happen in the future, yet we are uncertain about the future.
    We have great concerns about what might be "out there".

    The greatest possible fear of modern nations is being destroyed by a superior extraterrestrial force -they even prepare for such an eventuality -and that is exactly what is written will happen. It is written that Earthly forces will attempt to fight Christ at his return in power and glory -but that he -accompanied by an army -will destroy those who destroy the earth. His feet will stand on the cloven mount of olives, and he will go forth and fight those nations gathered around Jerusalem who turn to fight him.

    Yet -that is actually how "the desire of all nations" will come. It will be the end of war on Earth (there will be one more attempt at the end of the thousand years, but it will be put down).
    Christ will literally rule the whole earth -and will enforce and teach peace.

    This will happen just before we almost destroy all life on earth -so that there can be no doubt that our ways lead only to that -and that we need God's government.
    After the thousand years, the "rest of the dead" are resurrected to the judgment -which is not all doom and gloom.
     
    #19 Etritonakin, Mar 1, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2015
  20. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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