Can someone explain the Trinity please...

[katiemygirl]

At the end of the day, it's all about love and loving others. Purely and genuinely. Charity. Helping those in need. That is glorifying God through you. That is giving to God. Not reading bibles, going to a church building, or trying to call others into their sect. Prophecy and revelation come but in the end, love, peace, unity, and truth are what matters. What's sown to the Spirit is reaped. Many blessings.

I agree with you that in the end it it comes down to loving God and our neighbors.
This is written in the Bible.

 

[JM2C]

Why not quote the whole passage?

Luke 11:14-20...."And He was casting out a demon, and it was mute; when the demon had gone out, the mute man spoke; and the crowds were amazed. But some of them said, “He casts out demons by Beelzebul, the ruler of the demons.” Others, to test Him, were demanding of Him a sign from heaven. But He knew their thoughts and said to them, “Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste; and a house divided against itself falls. If Satan also is divided against himself, how will his kingdom stand? For you say that I cast out demons by Beelzebul. And if I by Beelzebul cast out demons, by whom do your sons cast them out? So they will be your judges. But if I cast out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you." (NASB)

Those who accused Jesus of getting his power from "Beelzebub" (Lord of the Flies which was another name for the leader of the demons...satan) were themselves misled by him. History repeats you know. Pots calling kettles black.A quick look at Christendom will add to your argument. (1 Cor 1:10) How divided would you like? (Matt7:21-23)

Exactly! The devil himself, “the god of this world -2Co 4:4”, is the one misleading his followers from the truth. A good example is JW’s predictions of the end of the world so many times and failed.

Dt 18:22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.

Then you guys would say at the end, “have we not prophesied" the end of the world "in thy name? Matt 7:22”

Mt 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 

[JM2C]

Who is denying the virgin birth? Not JW's.

Let me quote one of your fellow cult member

That is doubtless why ACDSyh (margin) (followed by Moffatt’s translation) read “the congregation of the Lord,” instead of “the congregation of God.”

This is the same Moffatt who said “a young woman with child” in Isaiah’s 7:14 thus denying Matthew 1:23 “virgin/Parthenos”
MT 1:23 “BEHOLD, THE VIRGIN SHALL BE WITH CHILD AND SHALL BEAR A SON, AND THEY SHALL CALL HIS NAME IMMANUEL,” which translated means, “GOD WITH US.”

“Immanuel” which translated means, “GOD WITH US”

 

[JM2C]

Who is denying the divinity of Jesus Christ? Not JW's.

You’ve been denying John 1:1-18 and all those verses in post #965.

Being "a god" does not make you Almighty God if the same terminology (theos) is given to even humans. (John 10:34, 35)

All those verses in post #965 are a god?

The Lord Jesus did not deny any of their accusation but even confirmed that He is God, the Son of God who is equal with God “and I give unto them eternal life –John 10:28”. Who gives eternal life but God?

 

[JM2C]

Not once is Jesus called Almighty God. Not once did he ask to be worshipped but directed all worship to his Father "alone". (Luke 4:8)

Read post #1164

Who denies that the Word became flesh? Not JW's

If you can deny the “Word was God” in verse 1 then how can you acknowledge the “the Word became flesh” in verse 14?

You can never arrive to this conclusion, “the Word became flesh –v14” if your premise in verse 1 is “the Word” is not God. Do you understand this?

“For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, -Col 2:9”

This verse summarized John 1:1-14

The Word was not "ho theos".

Who is denying the divinity of Jesus Christ? Not JW's.

Contradicting yourself or just confused?

“For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, -Col 2:9”

In Col 2:9, Paul is declaring that in the Son there dwells all the fullness of absolute Godhead -Vines.

 

[moorea944]

Actually, I think you mean that Jesus, like Adam had ability to sin because of being a free agent. Free will did not make Adam unable to sin, but should have restrained him. Love and respect for his Creator should have been enough to stop him from going down a wrong path.

"Sin nature" is what Adam passed onto his children. This is what Jesus came to die for. His death atones for the life that Adam failed to pass on to them.....all they inherited was a propensity to sin that has plagued humankind all through history. God's own people constantly struggled with sinful inclinations that led them away from obedience to God. Their animal sacrifices gained them temporary forgiveness, but Jesus' sacrifice grants forgiveness for all time, provided that we are truly repentant.


Correct. Jesus demonstrated that even under temptation stronger than that with which Adam was tested, he remained faithful and obedient. Why else would the devil have been permitted to test him?



Well, I believe that you are partially right here. Jesus got baptised to demonstrate publicly that he was presenting himself to God to become "Messiah". This is when he became the "Christ" (anointed one.) The Father anointed Jesus with holy spirit, declared before all that this was his son, and empowered him from that day forward with miraculous abilities.

You are correct.....Jesus' baptism was a symbolic death and resurrection, just as all Christians must undergo. We too must die to our former selfish desires and be raised to do the will of God first in our lives.
It is Jesus blood that cleanses us from sin, not our baptism. Our baptism is also a public display to demonstrate before all that we have made a commitment to become a footstep follower of our Master.


This is confusing.......
Could I just get you to demonstrate how the NWT is "custom written" to tell us "that Jesus is God" when we don't believe that he is?

I would really like to see some evidence that the NWT is anything but the most accurate translation in keeping with the original language text. It is free from trinitarian bias and is careful to identify the true God in passages where he got lost in the ambiguous title "LORD".

We went back to the original texts and started from scratch for the simple reason that Christendom's Bible translations are full of bias towards their own doctrines....the very thing they accuse us of doing.

Jesus and his Father are two completely separate individuals who are not equal, and never have been. The holy spirit is not and never has been a third part of a trinity.

[Could I just get you to demonstrate how the NWT is "custom written" to tell us "that Jesus is God" when we don't believe that he is?]
I didnt write that , I quoted that from the other poster. I believe Jesus is NOT God. I believe that he is the son of God.

 

[moorea944]

When you refer to God's thoughts, reasonings, spoken words revealed to an individual, wouldn't that make the Christ those thoughts, reasonings, and spoken word to an individual? Wouldn't those thoughts/reasonings/spoken words be Jesus Christ.... The light revealed inside of an individual? Wouldn't that make Jesus Christ "wisdom, knowledge, understanding, and truth revealed to an individual in their flesh-us, and not a fleshly single human individual physically conquering but spiritually conquering in our flesh? If God's thoughts, reasoning, truth, wisdom, knowledge, and understanding did NOT come inside of an individual's flesh, would that then be the spirit of the antichrist.... ? The Christ is the truth and the life, not the myth and the life. the Word of God is the Son of God, the Word of God is Jesus Christ. God with us and God saving us. The bright shining of light in our heads and hearts. Not an individual fleshly figure up in the sky. Has the reasoning, wisdom, truth, spoken words of God come in your flesh, minds, hearts, and souls? Or are you still worshipping a myth, a lie, the image of the beast (flesh)? I'm not speaking this to you personally, Moore, but to everyone here since you brought up precisely the truth and I'm unsure if you see it.

Thanks for your post. I think the "Word" in these verses is God's Word on everything and not just Jesus as most people think. Jesus IS the Word, the bread of life, the light, etc, but , in these verses it is talking about God and HIS Word and what He has done.

 

[JM2C]

Who denies the resurrection and ascension of The Lord Jesus Christ? Not JW's.....so where is your antichrist?

Who is sitting at the right hand of God as we speak? The Lord Jesus Christ, wasn’t it?

Psalm 110:1 should read like this, “The Lord (YHWH) says to my Lord (ADNY), Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.”

Let me ask you. Who is this Lord[ADNY] that is sitting at the right hand of the Lord[YHWH]?

An “a god”?

Being "a god" does not make you Almighty God if the same terminology (theos) is given to even humans. (John 10:34, 35)

God would sit with “a god” right next to Him? Just think about that.

“You shall have no other gods before Me. –Ex 20:3”

Based on this premise, Ex 20:3, we can only conclude that the one sitting next God in Psalm 110:1 cannot be an “a god” or “other/different/heteros” god or gods.
Therefore, we can only conclude that the one sitting next to God in heaven, the Lord Jesus Christ, is God, the Son of God.

Since your are denying the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ, as God, the Son of God, who is at the right hand of God in heaven –“But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God; -Acts 7:55”- then you are therefore denying His resurrection and ascension and that makes you an antichrist.

 

[katiemygirl]

According to the NWT, Jesus is the one who sent the angel to John in Revelation 1:1.

I agree this is what the verse says.

1 A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent his angel and presented it in signs through him to his slave John,"
(NWT)

According to the NWT, Revelation 22:16, it is Jesus who sent his angel.

I agree that this is what this verse says.

"I, Jesus, sent my angel to bear witness to you about these things for the congregations. I am the root and the offspring of David and the bright morning star."
(NWT)

According to NWT, Revelation 22:6, it is Jehovah who sent the angel.

I disagree with this.

6 He said to me: “These words are faithful and true; yes, Jehovah, the God who inspired the prophets, has sent his angel to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. (NWT)

This is a contradiction. I disagree, not only because the name Jehovah is not found in any extant Greek manuscript, but it is a direct contradiction of Rev. 1:1 and Rev. 22:16.

Compare Revelation 22:6 in the NWT to the NASB rendering.

Revelation 22:6
And he said to me, "These words are faithful and true"; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place. (NASB)

It is Jesus who is the Lord (kyrios), the God (ho Theos) of the spirits of the prophets according to the apostle John. It is Jesus who sent His angel, not Jehovah.

The NWT is not trustworthy!

This is just one more proof that Jesus is God!

 

[JM2C]

First of all, I'm not JW.

You should thank God for that otherwise they’ll take you down with them “into a pit –Matt 15:14”

[Do you believe or acknowledge that the Lord Jesus is God incarnate in human flesh based on John 1:1 "and the Word was God" and John 1:14 "and the Word became flesh"?]

Absolutely not!! God is not incarnate in human flesh. Your saying that God changed into Jesus, that's wrong and false doctrine. It is God manifest.

What is the word "Word" in verse one. Should it be in a cap "W"? Is it talking about Jesus or something else.... The word "Word" is LOGOS. It means someones plans, thoughts or reasons. It's not talking about Jesus per ca, it's talking about God. IT's talking about God's Word. His plans, thoughts, reasons. The first few verses are talking about God, then in verse 14, the logos or God's plans become real, they become flesh.

If we start using words like, "carnate" and things like that, we do down a different path. If God changed into Jesus, then there is no God in heaven. He would be down in earth. Or God splits in half, one if heaven and one on earth. Doesnt the bible say that God works "through" His son?

I wish we could all just believe in what the bible says, that God is the God of all and father of all. Jesus is the son of God from the tribe of Judah, from David. I dont understand why we have to "add" words in, like God the son. Oh well.....

Asserting such a claim would need proof, right? Otherwise, one is arguing from ignorance. Here is my proof, please read and understand John 1:1-18.

Now, if we argue from our own opinions only then how do we know which one is right or wrong? We can’t, can we? What do we do? Base our arguments from facts? Where do we find facts about the earthly ministry, the crucifixion and death, the resurrection and the ascension of the Lord Jesus Christ? In the bible, the very Word of God.

1TH 2:13 For this reason we also constantly thank God that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but for what it really is, the word of God, which also performs its work in you who believe.

 

[moorea944]

You should thank God for that otherwise they’ll take you down with them “into a pit –Matt 15:14”
Asserting such a claim would need proof, right? Otherwise, one is arguing from ignorance. Here is my proof, please read and understand John 1:1-18.

Now, if we argue from our own opinions only then how do we know which one is right or wrong? We can’t, can we? What do we do? Base our arguments from facts? Where do we find facts about the earthly ministry, the crucifixion and death, the resurrection and the ascension of the Lord Jesus Christ? In the bible, the very Word of God.

1TH 2:13 For this reason we also constantly thank God that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but for what it really is, the word of God, which also performs its work in you who believe.

[Asserting such a claim would need proof, right? Otherwise, one is arguing from ignorance. Here is my proof, please read and understand John 1:1-18.]
I agree, one would need proof. We both believe in different ways. God did not incarnate Himself. "Incarnate" is not use for God. But "manifesting" is. "Firstborn" is, etc, etc. God does not change. Incarnate is changing into something.

I"m glad you used John 1-18. Proves my point. Thank you. Verses 1-13 is about God and John, then 14 is Jesus.

 

[JayJayDee]

Tough love, pal.

I am not your "pal". Nor am I male.

No one wants to be held accountable, rebuked.

By whose authority do you "rebuke" anyone? Don't tell me, let me guess.

Being "held accountable" is what we will all experience when Jesus comes as our judge. I don't recall Jesus authorising you or anyone else to hold anyone "accountable" for our actions or beliefs, but ourselves.

You seem to see yourself as God's personal spokesman. Is there some way for others to verify that?

I once believed everything you have.

Since you know nothing about JW's I suspect that this is a false statement. From what you wrote, it is clear that you have no idea what I believe.

My mission is to show people how to seek the Lord properly and experience and know God, in spirit and truth. Not seek me or yourself, but the one teacher.

And you operate off the premise that you have that exclusive "mission" to begin with. That somehow only you know "how to serve the Lord properly"?

How did Jesus conduct his ministry? How did he instruct his disciples to preach? What was their message and how were they to present it? They used the written word to confirm everything they taught. Do you?

State your case by all means. We have a public forum to do that...what we don't have is the right to force our beliefs on anyone as if we are the only voice to be heard. Your voice and your message, though believed by yourself, cannot be blindly accepted by others as if you alone bear responsibility to speak for God, just because you say so.

Christianity has never been a one man band. We will all make our choices and we will all stand or fall because of them.

 

[JayJayDee]

Exactly! The devil himself, “the god of this world -2Co 4:4”, is the one misleading his followers from the truth. A good example is JW’s predictions of the end of the world so many times and failed.

A good example would be to look at Judaism and see the same success he has had with Christendom. He sticks to his old familiar tactics because he knows they work. You corrupt God's worship from within. God's true worshippers have never been in the majority. (Matt 7:13, 14)

JW's have made no "predictions" about "the end of the world"....we have kept on the watch, as Jesus told us to do and we have "hoped" that certain years may have brought the relief that Jesus promised when his kingdom begins to rule the earth. (Matt 24:42-44) We have never offered a "day or hour"....we have hoped for the blessings of the kingdom.....nothing more. "Hope serves as an anchor for the soul".....we have always been firmly anchored and we have never gone to sleep spiritually. We have kept on preaching as Jesus commanded all his disciples to do.

Dt 18:22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.

Then you guys would say at the end, “have we not prophesied" the end of the world "in thy name? Matt 7:22”

We have never claimed to be prophets. It's not against any law to hope or to express that hope.

Mt 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

What iniquity would that be? These are ones who see themselves as good "Christians" yet Jesus says he has "NEVER" known them. "Never" means "not ever". Christendom, from its inception has never been recognised by Christ as belonging to him.
The "weeds" of Jesus' parable were sown even before the death of the apostles. It is nothing recent.

Is Christendom one united brotherhood? (1 Cor 1:10) Are they collectively obeying the teachings of the Master?

Do JW's break God's law by being part of this world? Do they support their nation's wars by endorsing soldiers and chaplains in the armed forces to encourage those who spill innocent blood....even of their own brothers? (John 15:18-21; 1 John 4:20, 21; Isa 2:2-4)

Do we incorporate pagan beliefs and doctrines introduced by an apostate church centuries ago and hold onto them even when their origins have proven to be missing from the scriptures, thereby going against the teachings of Jesus' apostles to "separate" from such things? (2 Cor 6:14-18; 2 Thess 2:9-12)

Are the churches "preaching the good news of the kingdom in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations" before the foretold "end" of the present age? (Matt 24:14; 28:19, 20) Are they out there "searching" for the "worthy ones" as Jesus instructed? (Matt 10:11-15) When was the last time a member of Christendom's churches called at your door to offer you the message of the kingdom? (Acts 5:42:20: 20) When was the last time you went out searching for the lost sheep in order to bring them into the safety of the flock? What flock would that be?

Do the churches even know what the kingdom is and what the good news about it means?

Having come out of Christendom...I can tell you that they are as clueless today as they ever were. How can you preach about something when you have no idea what it is?

From your beliefs, can you please tell us succinctly what the "kingdom" is and what it will accomplish that is "good news" for obedient mankind but bad news for those who aren't?

 

[Unification]

I am not your "pal". Nor am I male.


By whose authority do you "rebuke" anyone? Don't tell me, let me guess.

Being "held accountable" is what we will all experience when Jesus comes as our judge. I don't recall Jesus authorising you or anyone else to hold anyone "accountable" for our actions or beliefs, but ourselves.

You seem to see yourself as God's personal spokesman. Is there some way for others to verify that?



Since you know nothing about JW's I suspect that this is a false statement. From what you wrote, it is clear that you have no idea what I believe.



And you operate off the premise that you have that exclusive "mission" to begin with. That somehow only you know "how to serve the Lord properly"?

How did Jesus conduct his ministry? How did he instruct his disciples to preach? What was their message and how were they to present it? They used the written word to confirm everything they taught. Do you?

State your case by all means. We have a public forum to do that...what we don't have is the right to force our beliefs on anyone as if we are the only voice to be heard. Your voice and your message, though believed by yourself, cannot be blindly accepted by others as if you alone bear responsibility to speak for God, just because you say so.

Christianity has never been a one man band. We will all make our choices and we will all stand or fall because of them.

Thank you for the reply. I rebuke, your accountability is on you. I'm not a one man band, I am not alone. Help me to know the witnesses' a bit better. Let's start here.

1. If there are 7-9 million witnesses worldwide, and only 144,000 of you guys get saved, why would you promote your "religion" to others if only 1-2% will see a physical kingdom on physical Earth? With 98-99% becoming dead and a distant memory.

 

[Unification]

A good example would be to look at Judaism and see the same success he has had with Christendom. He sticks to his old familiar tactics because he knows they work. You corrupt God's worship from within. God's true worshippers have never been in the majority. (Matt 7:13, 14)

The deceiver and devil is the carnal mind. I will admit, when it comes to earthly wisdom, your mind is pretty crafty itself. God's true worshippers have never been in the majority, very accurate... The inner spiritual man has always been killed.

JW's have made no "predictions" about "the end of the world"....we have kept on the watch, as Jesus told us to do and we have "hoped" that certain years may have brought the relief that Jesus promised when his kingdom begins to rule the earth. (Matt 24:42-44) We have never offered a "day or hour"....we have hoped for the blessings of the kingdom.....nothing more. "Hope serves as an anchor for the soul".....we have always been firmly anchored and we have never gone to sleep spiritually. We have kept on preaching as Jesus commanded all his disciples to do.

What are you watching for? What has everyone been watching for, for thousands of years? The Christ already came in my life and has been ruling in my body.


We have never claimed to be prophets. It's not against any law to hope or to express that hope.

Why "hope" when one can know?

What iniquity would that be? These are ones who see themselves as good "Christians" yet Jesus says he has "NEVER" known them. "Never" means "not ever". Christendom, from its inception has never been recognised by Christ as belonging to him.
The "weeds" of Jesus' parable were sown even before the death of the apostles. It is nothing recent.

You see yourself as being a good and faithful "Christian" as well.

Is Christendom one united brotherhood? (1 Cor 1:10) Are they collectively obeying the teachings of the Master?

United by mankind's control, jurisdiction, and brainwash doesn't count.

Do JW's break God's law by being part of this world? Do they support their nation's wars by endorsing soldiers and chaplains in the armed forces to encourage those who spill innocent blood....even of their own brothers? (John 15:18-21; 1 John 4:20, 21; Isa 2:2-4)

Being part of this world is teaching worldy and earthly things as well.

Do we incorporate pagan beliefs and doctrines introduced by an apostate church centuries ago and hold onto them even when their origins have proven to be missing from the scriptures, thereby going against the teachings of Jesus' apostles to "separate" from such things? (2 Cor 6:14-18; 2 Thess 2:9-12)

It's all apostate, including yours.

Are the churches "preaching the good news of the kingdom in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations" before the foretold "end" of the present age? (Matt 24:14; 28:19, 20) Are they out there "searching" for the "worthy ones" as Jesus instructed? (Matt 10:11-15) When was the last time a member of Christendom's churches called at your door to offer you the message of the kingdom? (Acts 5:42:20: 20) When was the last time you went out searching for the lost sheep in order to bring them into the safety of the flock? What flock would that be?

You're unaware of what that good news even is, or the kingdom.

Do the churches even know what the kingdom is and what the good news about it means?

Nope.

Having come out of Christendom...I can tell you that they are as clueless today as they ever were. How can you preach about something when you have no idea what it is?

One deficit to the next.
Your own mind deceives you as well.

From your beliefs, can you please tell us succinctly what the "kingdom" is and what it will accomplish that is "good news" for obedient mankind but bad news for those who aren't?

Expand.

 

[Nada]

Thank you for the reply. I rebuke, your accountability is on you. I'm not a one man band, I am not alone. Help me to know the witnesses' a bit better. Let's start here.

1. If there are 7-9 million witnesses worldwide, and only 144,000 of you guys get saved, why would you promote your "religion" to others if only 1-2% will see a physical kingdom on physical Earth? With 98-99% becoming dead and a distant memory.

Great Crowd — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

 

[Unification]

Great Crowd — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

In other words, only 144,000 witnesses go to a place called heaven, with most deceased members of the past already holding a majority of that number, and the rest of the witnesses are resolved to being deemed the "great crowd" still being on a newly created physical Earth? Being a witness, what has Jehovah witnessed to you about what you have to do to be in the elite class of the 144,000?

 

[Unification]

Great Crowd — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

2. When do women have to wear head coverings and what does this signify?

 

[JayJayDee]

In other words, only 144,000 witnesses go to a place called heaven, with most deceased members of the past already holding a majority of that number, and the rest of the witnesses are resolved to being deemed the "great crowd" still being on a newly created physical Earth?

There are two groups before the throne of God and the Lamb. One is numbered, the other is not. (Rev 7:9, 10, 13, 14)

144,000 are "chosen" by God to rule with Christ in heaven. These are to be "kings and priests". (Rev 20:6) Logically if there are kings...these need subjects. And if there are "priests" there has to be sinners for whom to perform their priestly duties. As kings, those who go to heaven do not rule each other and because they are no longer in their sinful flesh, they do not need priests either.

Being a witness, what has Jehovah witnessed to you about what you have to do to be in the elite class of the 144,000?

The anointed are given a token of the holy spirit....begotten to be adopted "sons" of God and "brothers" of Jesus Christ. Because it is God's choosing and because these have no special status in the congregations, there is no benefit in claiming to be one of the anointed unless you are. These alone take the emblems at the Lord's supper because these alone are taken into the new covenant. Taking the emblems unworthily will incur Jehovah's anger.

The great crowd are not envious of the selection of the anointed because we have no desire to go to heaven. Earth was meant to be our permanent home which will yet become the paradise that God first purposed.

If humans had never sinned, no one would have gone to heaven.

 

[Nada]

In other words, only 144,000 witnesses go to a place called heaven, with most deceased members of the past already holding a majority of that number, and the rest of the witnesses are resolved to being deemed the "great crowd" still being on a newly created physical Earth? Being a witness, what has Jehovah witnessed to you about what you have to do to be in the elite class of the 144,000?

Well you are mistaken if you think that just because you are a JW that this makes you one of the 144,000.This is not true at all.The first of these were Jesus' disciples.Those of the anointed class such as the disciples will be with Jesus Christ in heaven.In all of my life I have only seen one partake of the emblems identifying them as one of these chosen.This was in 1984.That was 30 years ago. I forgot.....I went to the assembly in Houston back in July and heard one speak.But this man I just heard speak.