Please post the Scriptures in which dead Hebrews asked for the living ?
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Is Hell Fair Since We Don't Choose to Exist
- Thread starter The Sum of Awe
- Start date
Please post the Scriptures in which dead Hebrews asked for the living ?
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
I answered some questions within his text. If you look at # 95, you will notice his quote has CLICK TO EXPAND. Click that to see my commentary on Sheol.
Also, again, there is no "Hell" in the Bible.
The words mistranslated as "hell," are Sheol, Gehenna, Tartarus, and Hades.
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Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
This is well known by Scholars whom study the ancient Hebrew, including Biblical archaeologists.
This article from Bible Review - an archaeology magazine from the Biblical Archaeology Society - gives all the basic information.
BIBLE REVIEW - AFTERLIFE - Ancient Israel's Changing View Of The World Beyond, volume IV, Number 1.
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Skwim
Veteran Member
Yes, the nature of the second death is a lake of fire. Ouch! Ouch! Watch your step!
Sorry, but your euphemistic description of death as sleep isn't selling. Let's call a spade a spade. And, like it or not, according to the various versions of the Bibles hell one can indeed be subjected to burning, suffering, shame, contempt, confusion, disgrace, or abhorrence.
But the Bible itself says that hell is eternal: be it burning, suffering, shame, contempt, confusion, disgrace, abhorrence, or however you choose to view it.
Daniel 12:2 (NLV)
2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth will wake up. Some will have life that lasts forever, but others will have shame and will suffer much forever.
Daniel 12:2 (AMP)
2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake: some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting contempt and abhorrence.
Daniel 12:2 (CEV)
2 Many of those who lie dead in the ground will rise from death. Some of them will be given eternal life, and others will receive nothing but eternal shame and disgrace.
Daniel 12:2 (NIRV)
2 “Huge numbers of people who lie dead in their graves will wake up. Some will rise up to life that will never end. Others will rise up to shame that will never end.
2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth will wake up. Some will have life that lasts forever, but others will have shame and will suffer much forever.
Daniel 12:2 (AMP)
2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake: some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting contempt and abhorrence.
Daniel 12:2 (CEV)
2 Many of those who lie dead in the ground will rise from death. Some of them will be given eternal life, and others will receive nothing but eternal shame and disgrace.
Daniel 12:2 (NIRV)
2 “Huge numbers of people who lie dead in their graves will wake up. Some will rise up to life that will never end. Others will rise up to shame that will never end.
Skwim
Veteran Member
Actually, there is.
Mark 9:43 ESV
And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire.
Matthew 10:28 KJV
- And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matthew 10:28 (ASV)
28 And be not afraid of them that kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matthew 10:28 (DARBY)
28 And be not afraid of those who kill the body, but cannot kill the soul; but fear rather him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Could it be that "hell" is used because it's an English word, Just like "savior" is a Middle English word, and "god" is Old English, of Germanic origin? Or is the Bible simply wrong--it mistranslated the proper term. Anything else the Bible got wrong, or is this it?
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
Mark 9:43 - Geenna/Gehenna,
Matthew 10:28 - Geenna/Gehenna
No - actually it isn't just an English translation. Hell is a foreign concept brought to the Hebrew concept of the world of the dead. Hell is eternal punishment, torture, for sins, etc. The Hebrew does not have this. It was brought in after foreign contact.
EDIT - Forgot to add - I think the Mark 9:43 verse is a cautionary story. Better to cut off a hand that wants to do wrong, rather then end in the valley, on the fires of Gehenna, being burnt with the rest of the criminals, and the rest of the city garbage.
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Etritonakin
Well-Known Member
It is interesting to note that death and hell (the grave) are cast into the lake of fire -and that the last enemy to be destroyed is death.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
Christ described the general situation of Gehenna.....
Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
So -those cast there are not comfortable/unpleasant -though whether there are literal flames/the intensity thereof, etc, I don't know -but the real question is that of duration. Is it truly with no possibility of end -or is it dependent upon something? Is the torment of the individual without end -or is the torment itself eternal -and the individual can eventually leave it? Given the imperfection of human language and the many verses on the subject, it isn't simple to determine, but the following do suggest that while the ultimatum is eternal, the individual experience of it need not be.....
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
We have all lied -even the apostles probably lied -so repentance is an issue to be considered.
Can one repent after having been cast into the lake of fire? If some in the lake of fire would go to the others, and those not there WOULD go to those in the lake of fire -out of concern, i would imagine, it does not seem like a desirable end state to me. If I'm having a great time and others are being tormented, I don't think I could feel comfortable with that eternally -and it doesn't seem to be the case from what I have read. Is it a "stay here and think about that you have done" sort of scenario?
Perhaps God is able to bring all to repentance. It is part of the mystery of God which we will eventually understand.
Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
Christ described the general situation of Gehenna.....
Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
So -those cast there are not comfortable/unpleasant -though whether there are literal flames/the intensity thereof, etc, I don't know -but the real question is that of duration. Is it truly with no possibility of end -or is it dependent upon something? Is the torment of the individual without end -or is the torment itself eternal -and the individual can eventually leave it? Given the imperfection of human language and the many verses on the subject, it isn't simple to determine, but the following do suggest that while the ultimatum is eternal, the individual experience of it need not be.....
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
We have all lied -even the apostles probably lied -so repentance is an issue to be considered.
Can one repent after having been cast into the lake of fire? If some in the lake of fire would go to the others, and those not there WOULD go to those in the lake of fire -out of concern, i would imagine, it does not seem like a desirable end state to me. If I'm having a great time and others are being tormented, I don't think I could feel comfortable with that eternally -and it doesn't seem to be the case from what I have read. Is it a "stay here and think about that you have done" sort of scenario?
Perhaps God is able to bring all to repentance. It is part of the mystery of God which we will eventually understand.
Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
Actually there is no fire. He doesn't look up to the "Bosom of Abraham table" - from flames.
He realizes he has placed himself at the bottom - far from the "restful peace of the Bosom" - and he looks up in "burning anguish" asking for even a drop of water from that table.
Also - what he feels cannot be eternal, - as it says ALL - good and bad - go to Sheol, - which is just a holding place, - to await the end and FINAL Judgment.
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Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
It says the second death is final. Those evil people, death itself, and the holding place - Sheol, - are permanently destroyed in the lake of fire. The Refiner's Fire destroys the Dross.
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Skwim
Veteran Member
When people put a word in quotation marks, such as "bombastic" with no further explanation, in English parlance it refers to the word itself. So when some one says "Also, again, there is no "Hell" in the Bible." it unreservedly implies that the term "hell," h-e-l-l, does not appear in the Bible, regardless of its meaning. Had you meant to refer to the concept of hell as it is commonly defined then that's what you should have said.Ingledsva said:
Back to your, "No - actually it isn't just an English translation.."
To put a finer point on it then,
"Old English hel, helle, "nether world, abode of the dead, infernal regions," from Proto-Germanic *haljo "the underworld" (cognates: f. Old Frisian helle, Dutch hel, Old Norse hel, German Hölle, Gothic halja "hell") "the underworld," literally "concealed place" (compare Old Norse hellir "cave, cavern"),
Source: Online Etymology Dictionary
Source: Online Etymology Dictionary
But not all Christians regard it as such. Some Bibles such as the Amplified Bible tells them that hell is an abhorrence, which is in accord with the meaning of Sheol. But regardless of the intended meaning of its derivation, some Bibles today have indeed taken the meaning of hell to a new level, giving it the meaning of burning, suffering, shame, contempt, confusion, disgrace, and abhorrence.
So, what are we to make of this mistake? Are most Bibles simply wrong---they mistranslated the proper term? Has to give one pause as to what other mistakes lay waiting in the scriptures; big stuff perhaps?
But regardless of what it's called, the fact that it exists paints god as a less than admirable being.
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Glaurung
Denizen of Niflheim
If by fair you mean what you would like, then clearly not. But just because God doesn't adhere to what you want, doesn't make him unjust or arbitrary.
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
Indeed there are big problems in the Bible.
However, I meant what I said about Hell. Sheol and Gehenna for instance, are names, with a known meaning when they were translated, there was no reason to translate them using a foreign term with a different meaning. You can control people much better if Sheol becomes the eternal gloomy world Hell, which morphs into a world of eternal torture for all sinners.
There appear to be many place where they do this to fudge meaning. Such as the many places YHVH is turned into Lord, to make the verses appear to be prophecy of Lord Jesus.
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Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
But the Bible stories certainly show him to be such.
Lots of murder of the innocents.
Or the Exodus story, where YHVH says he is going to harden pharaoh's heart so that he won't let the people go, - so that he can show his flashy magic skills. Then when Pharaoh doesn't let them go, - because YHVH is preventing him from doing so, - YHVH kills their crops and livestock, tortures the people, and then kills all the INNOCENT firstborn. That would be one sick God.
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Then when Jesus died where did Jesus go ? _________Psalm 16 v 10; Acts 2 vs 27,31,32
Agree there is No English word hell/hellfire in Scripture but the words you mentioned above.
Jesus taught in death there is sleep - John 11 vs 11-14 - so where was Jesus sleeping in death before God resurrected Jesus ?__________- Acts 3 v 15; 13 vs 30,37
P.S. I think we agree Luke chapter 16 verses 14 to 31 is a parable or illustration and Not a real happening . - Matthew 13 v 34
The definition of the lake of fire according to Rev. 20 v 4 is that the lake of fire is ' second death'. [ Fire being symbolic of being devoured or destruction- Rev. 20 v 9 ]
All wicked ones are destroyed forever - Psalm 92 v 7- as in annihilated.
Even wicked Satan will be destroyed by Jesus - Hebrews 2 v 14 B
No everlasting life anywhere for the wicked.
'second death ' is shame and disgrace and contempt and abhorrence. None of them will have their names in the ' book of life '.
How can biblical ' hell' be eternal when everyone in the Bible's hell are ' delivered up ' out of hell [ Rev. 20 vs 13,14 ], then emptied-out hell is cast vacant into ' second death'. Vacated biblical hell dies in ' second death '. Even enemy death is done away with - 1st Corinthians 15 v 26
Rick O'Shez
Irishman bouncing off walls
No, hell is very unfair. UKIP have promised to get us out of it.
Pharaoh's heart was hardened to the point he would Not let God's people go - Exodus 4 v 21
But Pharaoh himself hardened his own heart - see Exodus 8 vs 15,32
God allowed the circumstances that brought about Pharaoh hardening his own heart.
Please also notice 1st Samuel 6 v 6
A divine execution is Not murder. We can Not read hearts, but God will know the point of no repentance, point of no remorse. Parents are responsible for minor children - 1st Cor. 7 v 14
Skwim
Veteran Member
So you say. Other Christians would say it's a literal lake of fire.
I'm not here to resolve the Bible's many contradictions; that's for the believer to do . . . if they actually care (most just choose to ignore them). So, if you choose ignore one verse in favor of another, be my guest.
One of the great things about the Bible is that if one verse doesn't fit one's needs there's sure to be another that does. Cherry picking the Bible is what gave us the vast number (a reported 41,000) of Christian denominations, so pick away. Just don't expect many to agree with your selections; the odds are against you. In the mean time we on the outside sit in wonder and amusement at the whole thing.
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
It says Jesus went to Hades/Sheol to teach the dead people there.
1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; (Sheol)
(HRB) Acts 2:27 because You will not leave My soul in Sheol, nor will You give Your pious one to see corruption.
Acts 2:27 is usually translated Hades - which any good Bible commentary can tell you is - Sheol.
Act 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in Hades/Sheol, neither his flesh did see corruption.
Act 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Again hades/Sheol.
As for the sleeping - note that these people sleeping in the grave/Sheol - in the parables, are also lounging in the Bosom of Abraham, or looking up in agony, etc.
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Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
NOPE!
Exo 7:3 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.
Exo 7:4 and Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you, that I may lay my hand upon Egypt, and bring forth mine armies, and my people the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great judgments.
This is just another story of YHVH's skitzo nature, to kill dumb animals, torture people, and murder the innocent.
And since when would my committing a crime, mean any minor children should be murdered?
This idea is skitzo.
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