Is Hell Fair Since We Don't Choose to Exist

[Neo Deist]

My Answer:-
The serpent was a creature made by God, but utilized by Satan in the Garden of Eden.

The Bible does not say that. Therefore, that is a man made assumption.

What is your version of how death and corruption entered the world?

Death and evil are a natural factor of life. Whatever lives, dies. Whoever can make a choice, can make an evil one. You forget, I am a deist. I look to logic before fairy tales. Is it really so hard to fathom humans having free will and the freedom to choose without divine influence?

You Say:-that Satan is a title, not a name. I’m sorry but I can’t find anyone who agrees with you.

Then you are not looking very hard. It helps to study linguistics. Satan is a Hebrew term, and it means adversary or accuser, depending on the context. It would be presented as ha-satan, which means "the accuser/adversary."

You said: I don't recall Satan ever being mentioned in the story of Eden .Haven’t you read:-

1. Genesis 3:14-15 (KJV)

For starters, don't quote the KJV if you are looking for accuracy in English. The NASB or ESV are far more accurate. The KJV had very few textual resources from which the 47 scholars working on it had to reference from. BTW, all 47 were members of the newly formed Church of England. Bias, anyone?

You must at all times deal with REALITY.

I do. That is why I am a deist.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

If you believe in judgement upon death, and heaven and hell, is there an option to cease to exist? If not, is hell really fair?

Well, I read several pages of the thread, and it seems to me they should be discussing whether or not the soul is immortal a bit more. I'm looking a little bit at a wikipedia page on 'Christian mortalism' but I know there are other terms for the debate regarding the existential tangibility of the soul. I mean, that is a big presumption we all take that the soul is in fact immortal.

I'd prefer to take the "not exist" option regardless of what the afterlife offered me.

The whole problem is that the hunch is that they don't give you that option. But I know what you're saying. An eternity of boredom vs. an eternity of pain, neither sounds so great. But if they let me have an eternity of boredom, I'd rather have that than the eternity of pain.

Rule number 1: Life is not fair.
Rule number 2: Never forget rule number 1

Well, maybe people into religion are less able to derive an optimist teleology due to restrictions on existential theological morphology.

 

[jeager106]

If you believe in judgement upon death, and heaven and hell, is there an option to cease to exist? If not, is hell really fair?

I don't and no it would not be fair. Eternal torment brings glory to satan, not to
God.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

My Answer:-
The serpent was a creature made by God, but utilized by Satan in the Garden of Eden. Thus he is called that ‘old serpent,’ and was given that description. To say that Satan was not there in the Garden of Eden and did not deceive Eve into sinning is without foundation. If the serpent wasn’t using the serpent as his instrument of tempt Eve, then who was he? What is your version of how death and corruption entered the world? Do you have a problem with the authority of God’s word? When God was manifested in our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, He had no problem with the Old Testament and often quoted it. For example:- (Matthew 4:1 (KJV)
1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.’ Here Christ showed He could triumph over Satan, where Adam and Eve originally failed). The New Testament also comes with the authority of God, for example:- 1 Timothy 3:16, 17.
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

1. You Say:-that Satan is a title, not a name. I’m sorry but I can’t find anyone who agrees with you. For example:- sātān [‏שָׂטָן‎, <H7854>] sātān is a noun designating both "Satan," the NAME of the demonic archenemy of God, and the "adversary." The term is found around thirty times. Expository Dictionary of Bible Words: Word Studies for Key English Bible Words Based on the Hebrew and Greek Texts.
2. You said: I don't recall Satan ever being mentioned in the story of Eden .Haven’t you read:-
3. Genesis 3:14-15 (KJV)
   14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
   15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. This is the prophecy about the Serpent and Satan are one or are you just pedantic about when Satan started using his name?? He will bruise the heel of Christ, which forecasts His crucifixion, and Christ will bruise his (Satan’s) head which will be a fatal blow at the end of time.
4. Christ came to deal with sin which came into the world via Satan’s temptation:-

1 John 3:8:- He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
The works of the Devil are from the beginning in the Garden of Eden through until the present day.
and again:-
Revelation 20:2, 3.
And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more,

1. You said ‘Furthermore, how do you know that what is written in the Bible is "God's word"? Because some long dead guy, who went up on a mountain ALONE,

Well, what can I say. 1st he wasn’t alone, he was with God. I would rather trust Him than any human being. 2nd Moses might be dead, but I look forward to seeing him and talking with him.

1. You said:- No, he preached about Gehenna, which was known to the people of that era to be symbolic. Hell is an Anglo Saxon term
   Personally, I don’t care what name you call it or what era’s name you give it. What I am trying to impress upon you is to believe the reality of it, and avoid it, by putting your trust in Him as Savior. You must at all times deal with REALITY.
2. You said: If you believe in Hell as a place of eternal torment and punishment, then you worship a god that is a diabolical tyrant.
   You obviously don’t understand God, I would strongly recommend that you prayerfully read the Bible through from Genesis to Revelation every year so that you can get an idea of God. THIS IS THE GOD WITH WHOM YOU MUST DO BUSINESS. To be stubbornly otherwise, it is like standing on a railway track with an approaching train, but arguing about the colour of the train.
3. You said:- It helps to know Hebrew.
   Well, I am just so glad that you know Hebrew. Here is more heart warming blessings for you.
   יְהוָֹה צָפָה סָתַר אִישׁ רֵעַ Christ’s prophet, certainty for eternity

Satan is that Serpent in Eden according to Revelation 12:9,12
Satan could have used that serpent in the same way a ventriloquist uses his dummy.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Luke 16: 14 - 31 is a parable [ illustration ] and Not a real happening. - Matthew 13:34

 

[Christ's Prophet]

Luke 16: 14 - 31 is a parable [ illustration ] and Not a real happening. - Matthew 13:34

My Response
Luke 16:19: says:- There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
To say that there was a CERTAIN RICH MAN in this story, implies strongly that it is not just a parable but an actual story. A CERTAIN RICH MAN, means that Jesus Christ has someone in mind who He knows to have actually existed. Further He gave one person in this story, a name- Lazarus. Parables don’t normally contain names. These factors imply that there was actually a rich man, and there was actually a poor man named Lazarus.
Much to consider. Christ’s prophet. Certainty for eternity.

 

[McBell]

the terms "fair" and "not fair"...
pretty useless terms.

Unless you reveal your basis for comparison.

Any takers?

 

[Christ's Prophet]

The Bible does not say that. Therefore, that is a man made assumption.
Death and evil are a natural factor of life. Whatever lives, dies. Whoever can make a choice, can make an evil one. You forget, I am a deist. I look to logic before fairy tales. Is it really so hard to fathom humans having free will and the freedom to choose without divine influence?
Then you are not looking very hard. It helps to study linguistics. Satan is a Hebrew term, and it means adversary or accuser, depending on the context. It would be presented as ha-satan, which means "the accuser/adversary."
For starters, don't quote the KJV if you are looking for accuracy in English. The NASB or ESV are far more accurate. The KJV had very few textual resources from which the 47 scholars working on it had to reference from. BTW, all 47 were members of the newly formed Church of England. Bias, anyone?
I do. That is why I am a deist.

My Response
So you are a deist? I am sorrowful at your lack of faith and your rebellion against God. You must therefore be an opponent of Joseph Butler?? See article reproduced here:-
Article: Notable Christian Apologist: Joseph Butler by Ted Cabal
Joseph Butler (1692-1752) received an Oxford University education, was made bishop of Bristol and later Durham, and became chaplain to the queen of England. But prestige did not dominate his interests; rather, he was concerned about the defense of the Christian faith. In his day Enlightenment views prevailed in Europe. While faith and revelation were increasingly spurned or ridiculed, confidence in reason and science was rising. Biblical Christianity was openly attacked as irrational and superstitious. The intellectual elite regarded deism, with its disavowal of any divine activity after creation, as the true religion. Deism could not accept the supernatural involvement of the biblical God in history.
Butler's Analogy of Religion undermined the deists by employing the very reasoning they used to attack the Bible. He claimed that if biblical revelation is to be doubted due to its difficulties and mysteries, then science should also be disbelieved. The same kinds of obscurities and unanswered questions are part of science, yet deists were all too quick to trumpet science as the new revelation. This example of inconsistent thinking, Butler argued, did not exalt the rationality honoured by intellectuals. If anything, the common patterns in nature and the Bible point to one and the same Author. And if deists believed in the grandest of miracles, the creation of the universe, then why should they doubt the lesser miracles of the Bible? Butler's Analogy mightily rebutted deism in his generation and became a standard text at Cambridge and Oxford for more than a century. The Apologetics Study Bible: Understanding Why You Believe.
Your understanding of this world must be illogical. If you believe that God made the world and then left it running independent of God, you believe the greater, but you don’t believe the lesser, that is that God has manifested Himself to millions of people over thousands of years in the Bible. Have you actually read the Bible? I don’t think so. How can you properly understand any one thing in the Bible without having some understanding of the whole?? May God’s Spirit be upon you and enlighten you. Christ’s prophet. Certainty for eternity

 

[rstrats]

Christ's Prophet,
re: "To say that there was a CERTAIN RICH MAN in this story, implies strongly that it is not just a parable but an actual story."

Many of the Messiah's parables begin with the use of the word "certain".



re: ". Further He gave one person in this story, a name- Lazarus. Parables don’t normally contain names."

"Normally" implies that sometimes they do. The Lazarus/rich man story could be one of those times.

 

[Christ's Prophet]

The serpent was a creature made by God, but utilized by Satan in the Garden of Eden.

The Bible does not say that. Therefore, that is a man made assumption.

My response:-

Genesis 3:1 (KJV) 1 Now the serpent was more subtil than ANY BEAST OF THE FIELD WHICH THE LORD GOD HAD MADE
. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

Yes it does, please read God's word. Satan can use any creature he wants, provided God permits him to. Yes, Satan is also called that old serpent and Satan in Revelation.
This is the Word of the Lord. Christ's prophet. Certainty for eternity

 

[Neo Deist]

Your understanding of this world must be illogical.

Uhm, no. I am a realist. I don't base my beliefs off of fairy tales and scrolls from thousands of years ago, from an age when they had no concept of what other planets were. The earth, come to find out, was not the center of the universe.

"Look off in the distance...smoke from the mountain top by day and fire by night. The ground trembles beneath our feet. That is a sign from God!" No, it is just an active volcano.

If you believe that God made the world and then left it running independent of God, you believe the greater...

Not quite. God made the laws of nature and set them in motion. The entire universe is governed by those laws. God does not need to sit at the helm and drive the train.

but you don’t believe the lesser, that is that God has manifested Himself to millions of people over thousands of years in the Bible.

Manifested Himself to millions of people? You must have skipped 1 John 1:18 - "No one has seen God at any time."

Have you actually read the Bible?

Yes. For 35 years I was a Southern Baptist.

Have you...other than the poorly translated KJV?

 

[Christ's Prophet]

Christ's Prophet,
re: "To say that there was a CERTAIN RICH MAN in this story, implies strongly that it is not just a parable but an actual story."
Many of the Messiah's parables begin with the use of the word "certain".
re: ". Further He gave one person in this story, a name- Lazarus. Parables don’t normally contain names."
"Normally" implies that sometimes they do. The Lazarus/rich man story could be one of those times.

My response:-
Sorry, I made an error. No other parable/story contains a name. My second error is that it does not contain one name, but two..Abraham. The word 'certain' is contained in a small number of parables and very likely a certain person or persons are in the mind of the teller (see the general use of the word). Do a word search. I appreciate that you may have a vested interest in explaining away Paradise and Hades, but you have no hermeneutical license to do so. In other words, what is your Biblical reasoning behind your interpretation. You must use Scripture to interpret Scripture. I would have thought that the story of Lazarus and the rich man is plain and easy to understand and doesn't need any fancy interpretation to make it say something else. May God's Spirit be upon you and give you peace. Christ's prophet Certainty for eternity

 

[Neo Deist]

Satan is that Serpent in Eden according to Revelation 12:9,12
Satan could have used that serpent in the same way a ventriloquist uses his dummy.

Nope.

Afraid you don't understand the meaning behind the term satan. It is a Hebrew term that means "adversary" or "accuser" in English. Furthermore it is a title, not a name. It is like saying teacher, lawyer, fireman, soldier, etc. Yes it denotes a specific being in some uses, but the being's name is not Satan. If you want an English-Hebrew hybrid of the term, it would be "The Satan," which comes from the Hebrew ha-satan.

If you look at the YLT of the Bible, it correctly translates satan or ha-satan into English.

 

[Christ's Prophet]

Uhm, no. I am a realist. I don't base my beliefs off of fairy tales and scrolls from thousands of years ago, from an age when they had no concept of what other planets were. The earth, come to find out, was not the center of the universe.
"Look off in the distance...smoke from the mountain top by day and fire by night. The ground trembles beneath our feet. That is a sign from God!" No, it is just an active volcano.
Not quite. God made the laws of nature and set them in motion. The entire universe is governed by those laws. God does not need to sit at the helm and drive the train.
Manifested Himself to millions of people? You must have skipped 1 John 1:18 - "No one has seen God at any time."
Yes. For 35 years I was a Southern Baptist.
Have you...other than the poorly translated KJV?

My Response:-
READING THE BIBLE
What I mean is, have you read the Bible from beginning to end, from Genesis to Revelation? How can you fully understand any one aspect of the Bible, if you don’t have an idea of the whole? The Bible tells us very much so that He is actively involved in His creation. You say that you was a Southern Baptist for 35 years, but did you go to church all that time? If so, what was going through your mind when you worshipped God? Because you walk through the doors of a church, that doesn’t make you a Christian.
You come down heavily on the KJV, but God has used it mightily over the centuries when the Spirit of God was poured out and revivals occurred and thousands of people were stricken in the heart because of their sins. If you have a thing about the KJV, well fine, use the ESV or the ASV or NIV, whatever floats your boat?

1 John 1:18. NO MAN HAS SEEN GOD AT ANY TIME
Are you trying to see if I am awake or something? There is no such thing as 1 John 1:18 as there are only 10 verses in that chapter?? Maybe you are thinking about:-
(NIV) John 1:18:- No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.
A Scripture out of context leads to wrong beliefs, for you have only quoted part of the Scripture to suit a pre-conceived idea. God the Father has made Himself known through the Son who is Himself God. See earlier in the Chapter:-
(NIV) Verse 1:- In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was with God in the beginning.
3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.
5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

GOD IS NOT INVOLVED IN THE WORLD
What in the world, do you do with Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour then? There are so many Scriptures that assure us that Christ is with us and will never leave us, or are you holding God up to be a liar?
John 14:15-17 (ESV)
15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, TO BE WITH YOU FOREVER, 17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you AND WILL BE IN YOU.
And
John 14:23 (ESV) 23 Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and WE WILL COME TO HIM AND MAKE OUR HOME WITH HIM.
And
Matthew 18:20:- and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. AND SURELY I AM WITH YOU ALWAYS, TO THE VERY END OF THE AGE.
And
(NIV) Hebrews 13:5 "Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you."

BELIEVE SCRIPTURE
(NIV) 2 Timothy 3:15:- and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
16 All Scripture is God- breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
You must believe God, first and foremost, otherwise you are lost forever. Seek Him while He may be found. You keep harping on that you are a realist and don’t believe in myths. Christ is no myth and is alive and working in His church today. May the Holy Spirit be upon you and give you peace. Christ’s prophet. Certainty for eternity.

 

[Neo Deist]

What I mean is, have you read the Bible from beginning to end, from Genesis to Revelation?

Yes. In English, across multiple translations. I am now learning Hebrew and Greek.

1 John 1:18. NO MAN HAS SEEN GOD AT ANY TIME
Are you trying to see if I am awake or something? There is no such thing as 1 John 1:18 as there are only 10 verses in that chapter?? Maybe you are thinking about:-
(NIV) John 1:18:- No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

Don't know why I had 1 John, but yes, that verse. John 1:18 (NASB)

What in the world, do you do with Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour then? There are so many Scriptures that assure us that Christ is with us and will never leave us, or are you holding God up to be a liar?

What do I do with Jesus? Recognize that he existed as a man and teacher. Only in the Bible do you find statements about his miracles, and those are all hearsay. Outside of the Bible there are only a few mentionings of him being crucified under the Roman Empire...nothing about miracles.

The gospels don't even agree on who went to the tomb and what was seen. Each one has a different account. That's what happens when hearsay writers try and repeat stories they heard, that originated decades earlier.

Not to mention Jesus was wrong...

Matthew 24:34 - Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

That was Jesus' failed prophecy during his fig tree speech. He did not return prior to that generation's death. Let me guess...you will try and put a spin on "generation" now.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Yes. In English, across multiple translations. I am now learning Hebrew and Greek.
Don't know why I had 1 John, but yes, that verse. John 1:18 (NASB)
What do I do with Jesus? Recognize that he existed as a man and teacher. Only in the Bible do you find statements about his miracles, and those are all hearsay. Outside of the Bible there are only a few mentionings of him being crucified under the Roman Empire...nothing about miracles.
The gospels don't even agree on who went to the tomb and what was seen. Each one has a different account. That's what happens when hearsay writers try and repeat stories they heard, that originated decades earlier.
Not to mention Jesus was wrong...
Matthew 24:34 - Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
That was Jesus' failed prophecy during his fig tree speech. He did not return prior to that generation's death. Let me guess...you will try and put a spin on "generation" now.

Sure, a lot of people were claiming miracles, just trying to take the credit for what Jesus did for themselves as the person performing them.

Please give an example about no agreement as to who went to the tomb .

Please remember Matthew 24 and Luke 21 have both a minor and a MAJOR fulfillment.
The minor fulfillment came in the year 70 when the Roman armies destroyed apostate Jerusalem. - Luke 19 vs 43,44

The MAJOR fulfillment is for our day or time frame - Revelation 1 v 10
Remember: Revelation was not written until the end of the first century so the ' generation' of the first century would Not be the generation of Rev. 1 v 10
Not trying to put a spin on things, but merely saying what the Bible really teaches.
Did you ever read through the Bible or have a Bible education ?

 

[McBell]

the terms "fair" and "not fair"...
pretty useless terms.

Unless you reveal your basis for comparison.

Any takers?

guess not.

 

[Nietzsche]

My Response:-
READING THE BIBLE
What I mean is, have you read the Bible from beginning to end, from Genesis to Revelation? How can you fully understand any one aspect of the Bible, if you don’t have an idea of the whole?

Errrr. The Bible is not a whole. The very word 'Bible' is derived(or where we get, can't remember) the term "bibliography". It's a collection of books, some of which are inter-related and others that aren't.

 

[Neo Deist]

Please give an example about no agreement as to who went to the tomb .

You could read the gospels for yourself and find out this information. However, some people are lazy so I will list the differences.

Tomb Visitors
Matthew: Mary Magdalene and one other Mary
Mark: Mary Magdalene, Mary (mother of James), and Salome
Luke: Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary (mother of James), and other women
John: Mary Magdalene alone

So, who exactly did the visiting, because every gospel is different...

Roman Guards
Matthew: 2 guards present
Mark: no guards
Luke: no guards
John: no guards

Minute detail, but were there guards or not...

The Stone
Matthew: moved by an earthquake by way of an angel coming down in shining garments
Mark, Luke and John: moved, but no description how

The other three do not mention a rather significant event dealing with an angel and an earthquake...

Inside The Tomb
Matthew: no mention of what was seen inside. The conversation with the angel happens outside.
Mark: one young man dressed in white
Luke: two men in shining garments
John: no mention of what was seen on first visit other than the stone having been moved. Mary comes back with Peter and "the other disciple Jesus loved" and inside are two angels dressed in white.

Were they told inside or outside the tomb...
Was there one person or two...
Were they men or angels...


Who Mary Told
Matthew: all the disciples
Mark: no one
Luke: the eleven apostles and all the disciples
John: Peter and John only

So who exactly was told by Mary, if anyone...

Yes, the gospels all have VERY different accounts at the tomb of Jesus. I have read where Christian theologians acknowledge the differences, but then try and spin it with the "eye witness" concept and how people see or experience different things during the same event. That is all fine and dandy except for one thing...none of the gospel authors were eye witnesses. The stories were written decades after Jesus' death, by third parties, which make the gospels hearsay at best.

Not to mention that when Jesus appeared before the disciples, they did not recognize him. Why? One reason that can't be discounted is that it was a different person, Jesus was dead, and someone stole his body!

 

[dantech]

Uhm, no. I am a realist. I don't base my beliefs off of fairy tales and scrolls from thousands of years ago, from an age when they had no concept of what other planets were. The earth, come to find out, was not the center of the universe.

Actually, the Talmud (1800 years ago) had quite a few things to say about other planets, the rotation of the earth, it's spheric shape, and even gravity. It talks about things like lightening, and even germs - something we've been able to learn about only with microscopes. I said it was written 1800 years ago, but we believe it's been around for longer than that, transmitted orally.
Anyways, the point I'm trying to make is to not underestimate the knowledge of past generations. They knew more than most people think.