Jesus as mediator

[Brickjectivity]

The law as mediator came to an end with Jesus. The law WAS perfect. If it wasn't there would be no Jesus.

Jesus proved the law is perfect. But isn't law for sinners?

So this is where it becomes difficult to reconcile what you are saying to Bible verses that specifically say the Law is eternal and perfect and also binding for Jews. I'm not a Jew, but for Jews it appears it is binding. For non-Jewish people it gets a little easier to reconcile.

 

[savagewind]

You ask if we lived perfectly, then what use would the Law be to us? In that case it would be written in our minds. The paper would not be needed, but the Law is like a living thing. "The Word..is living and active and sharper..."(Hebrews 4:12) 'Torah' is not strictly rules but more like how things work and is not just letters on paper. Math and Physics are also a kind of Torah, though they are not the Torah for Israel. They are an example of the concept of Torah. Lets say that you could do all kinds of Math in your head and no longer needed textbooks. Even so, that does not mean Math would come to an end. It would just mean that you didn't need a Math book and the principles would still apply.

So lets say that you are living perfectly and don't sin. Well then you are a living embodiment of how to live, so your life is Torah. So the Torah is still not gone, and you just don't need a paper copy.

I do not know how to talk about law. The law says I must do something. But the something I must do must be done because I am a sinner. In the presence of The Lord I am not a sinner. Why would I carry the law to The Lord?

 

[savagewind]

So this is where it becomes difficult to reconcile what you are saying to Bible verses that specifically say the Law is eternal and perfect and also binding for Jews. I'm not a Jew, but for Jews it appears it is binding. For non-Jewish people it gets a little easier to reconcile.

The law is mediator. Now Jesus is mediator. Mediation is eternal.

The law is binding? How so? Where does scripture say the law will always be binding? Binding means "an obligation that cannot be broken". But it HAS been broken.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I do not know how to talk about law. The law says I must do something. But the something I must do must be done because I am a sinner. In the presence of The Lord I am not a sinner. Why would I carry the law to The Lord?

Well, actually it is much nicer than that. I really wish everyone could learn some things about the Law. First of all its full of intent to protect the poor, uphold women's rights (yes really). Technically it is very progressive, but the written Law does not contain verbatim the real gusto of the intentions that are in the law, but you can feel them! It is not for nothing that David writes about how the law inspires him and how it comforts him. He say that it refreshes him. Well I found it refreshing, too. When you really get into it (and I have briefly) you feel many things. It is very special. Ok, when you think about 'Love' and all it encompasses, that is something like what you experience when you study the Law. You move past the riddle and go into the meaning.

So the written law is about something Jewish people have to do. That is true, and they just have to do it. The feeling in it though is more than that, and the principle is more than just what they are told to do. Underlying it though, there is this idea that there is physical circumcision (for men only) but then there is something else which is for both men and women. It is partly about cutting away pride, but the Law itself is of two parts that Paul refers to. There is the letter, the part that is written down; but there is the spirit. He says the letter kills but the spirit gives life, which is true. If those who followed the law didn't learn the spirit of the law, every Jew would be dead.

I guess the way to answer your question is that when you go to the 'LORD' you are ensconced in the future that you represent. That future you is Torah without the letters, I mean if I'm going by what the NT writers say. Forgive me if it seems that I'm just making things up I'm not. I'm trying to interpret from the smattering of letters that I have.

 

[Brickjectivity]

The law is mediator. Now Jesus is mediator. Mediation is eternal.

The law is binding? How so? Where does scripture say the law will always be binding? Binding means "an obligation that cannot be broken". But it HAS been broken.

Um. Verbal definitions are insufficient. As the 'Letter of the Law kills' so the verbal approximations of scripture don't do justice. How can they? So its kind of difficult, but Jesus is supposed to be up in heaven with the Father, not down here. He's supposed to be up there just waiting while the Father makes his enemies into a footstool. So the action is here, and the action is with us on the ground. Mediation need not be something that happens daily. It could be something that happens once in a while. We are having to connect the dots about all of the definitions and putting together all of the various scripture verses and to model what Jesus is thinking when he says something.

 

[savagewind]

Um. Verbal definitions are insufficient. As the 'Letter of the Law kills' so the verbal approximations of scripture don't do justice. How can they? So its kind of difficult, but Jesus is supposed to be up in heaven with the Father, not down here. He's supposed to be up there just waiting while the Father makes his enemies into a footstool. So the action is here, and the action is with us on the ground. Mediation need not be something that happens daily. It could be something that happens once in a while. We are having to connect the dots about all of the definitions and putting together all of the various scripture verses and to model what Jesus is thinking when he says something.

I agree with this. But if the law of Moses is mediator and Jesus is mediator then there would be two mediators. I think there can not be two effectively. Just one. Which one will it be?

 

[savagewind]

I think I would like a Brickjectivity definition of law so I might know what you are talking about.

 

[savagewind]

When I asked the Jehovah's Witness on board who is my mediator if Jesus mediates for only 144,000 and she said that to benefit from what Jesus does I must eat at the table of those Jesus mediates for. So my dumb mind says eating is what reconciles me to God if that's true. It sounds ridiculous but it isn't. Is it? The Law had in place the eating of a sacrifice to be at peace with God. I have said that people are coming in their own tradition of the likes of Israel. No one has proved me wrong yet. There is one Israel with one law which became one human mediator. That is what I believe but now there are two of everything.

 

[InChrist]

For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time... 1 Timothy 2:5-6

I think it is very telling and clear that according to the scriptures Jesus is the mediator for ALL, not only144,000. The scriptures never set such a limit on the work of Jesus Christ.

 

[Nada]

For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time... 1 Timothy 2:5-6

I think it is very telling and clear that according to the scriptures Jesus is the mediator for ALL, not only144,000. The scriptures never set such a limit on the work of Jesus Christ.

Yes, Jesus is for all.Not just 144,000.

 

[savagewind]

Yes, Jesus is for all.Not just 144,000.

Am I wrong to think it is what the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses teach? I should be corrected. Is it possible to provide us with the food at the proper time about it?

"Likewise, the Greater Moses, Jesus Christ, is not the Mediator between Jehovah God and all mankind. He is the Mediator between his heavenly Father, Jehovah God, and the nation of spiritual Israel, which is limited to only 144,000 members," ("The Desire for Peace and Security Worldwide," 1986, p. 10).
Comment: If the JW's who are not in the 144,000 don't have a mediator, then doesn't that mean that they are dead in their sins?

Jesus mediates only for 144, 000 Jehovah's Witnesses | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

 

[savagewind]

For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time... 1 Timothy 2:5-6

I think it is very telling and clear that according to the scriptures Jesus is the mediator for ALL, not only144,000. The scriptures never set such a limit on the work of Jesus Christ.

If you were a Jehovah's Witness you would be transgressing their law to "be in subjection" to The Governing Body. I do not know why Bible Student feels free to disagree with them. If it is true what the faithful and discreet slave says about the mediation of Jesus Christ and you disagree with it you would be in a position to be grieving God's Holy Spirit. Unless The Watchtower prints a retraction we are all to believe Jesus mediates for only 144,000. Please correct me if this is not the truth. Bible Student can't do it as I am on his ignore list. And love must hope I am not a "least one of Jesus' brothers" for his sake.

When there are no members of the 144,000 on the Earth because they will all be changed to be like Christ The Spirit then all we will have are their words they left to obey. Their words say Jesus mediates for only 144,000. As a thinking person I can see what is wrong with believing that. We are to seek Jehovah as they say. But without Christ's mediation it is a vain pursuit. Also to believe Jesus does not mediate is to never ask him to do it. But I believe it is every Christian's responsibility to ask.

 

[savagewind]

When Bible Student says

Yes, Jesus is for all. Not just 144,000.

he leaves out "but not as your mediator" which is causing my blood to boil. It is a little uncomfortable.

 

[gnostic]

Mediate in what, exactly?

 

[Robert.Evans]

The law is mediator. Now Jesus is mediator. Mediation is eternal.

The law is binding? How so? Where does scripture say the law will always be binding? Binding means "an obligation that cannot be broken". But it HAS been broken.

Mt 25.34 His words do not change. Nice to see you back stranger Were you lost in the wilderness?

 

[gnostic]

If Medina is anything to go by, I would rather have Jesus as a mediator than Muhammad.

 

[Robert.Evans]

I agree with this. But if the law of Moses is mediator and Jesus is mediator then there would be two mediators. I think there can not be two effectively. Just one. Which one will it be?

Depends on who you follow... but of course that implies more than one

 

[savagewind]

Mediate in what, exactly?

I think it is and always be impossible to be "exact" about God's Holy Spirit.

We must consider some things to be true first. God is good is something to be believed before understanding what mediation is. You don't believe that, maybe, so I wonder if I should go on?

If God who is good welcomes into God's presence something not good then the goodness of God means nothing. So Jesus Christ as mediator takes away a person's badness so that he CAN be welcomed.

God is A King. Are you able to imagine that? What do kings do?

 

[Robert.Evans]

........ There is one Israel with one law which became one human mediator.

Yes, for there is but one lord Eph 4

That is what I believe but now there are two of everything.

but there is good and evil, two sides, so why not?

 

[Robert.Evans]

Am I wrong to think it is what the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses teach? I should be corrected. Is it possible to provide us with the food at the proper time about it?


Jesus mediates only for 144, 000 Jehovah's Witnesses | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

That is there believe, so to them it is true.